#YesAllWomen

NOTE: There are two updates at the end of this post. Please read them.

If you’re a man, be ashamed. We let this happen.



hannah hunt @sw4gbol May 26

#YesAllWomen because on the train a stranger and his friends made rude comments about my breasts & then apologised to my boyfriend, not me


You might already have guessed that this post is not about science, or math, or climate change. It’s about the fact that all women live in fear of sexual assault.

Yes.

All.

If you haven’t already, search Twitter for the hashtag #YesAllWomen. Read. If you have already, read some more.

I already know that #NotAllMen are sexual abusers or potential rapists. If that’s your attitude — then FUCK YOU. Because #YesAllMenAreTheProblem. Except maybe Jimmy Carter.

Don’t give me any of that “not me” crap. I am so fucking mad, I am so upset, I’m in no mood for any apologist shit.

I’m a white man — I’m even an old white man. But I have despised racism since I was a small white boy. I’m not Jewish, but I have despised anti-semitism since I was a tiny little gentile. I won’t put up with it, and if we’re at a party and you make some casual offhand joke, some witty remark, rooted in racism or anti-semitism, I’m calling you out. I’m calling you the asshole you are. Loud enough that everyone can hear. I’m making such a big stink about it that somebody — maybe you, maybe me, but somebody — will probably be asked to leave. Every goddamn time. That’s the kind of shit I will not put up with.

But I’ve been in the company of men — and women — when sexist remarks are made, belittling women, objectifying them, even “jokingly” legitimizing rape. But I usually don’t raise a stink about it. I let it slide. “Boys will be boys.” Yes, I have been part of the problem.

Women are afraid. They live in fear. If you don’t believe me, then you need to go read the #YesAllWomen comments. Read a lot of them. Read some more. Keep reading the stories, from real victims, until you’re so fucking mad you can’t see straight. Until you’re so upset that tears come to your eyes.

And if you’re male, keep reading those stories until you feel ashamed. We should be.

Nobody should have to live in fear. Of course I’m not a rapist, most men aren’t, but we — the men of the world — are running the show, and we let this happen. Some men are the perpetrators, ALL women are the victims, but we are responsible. We made the world what it is. Right now, I don’t much like the way it is.

If you’re a male, and you’re not the 39th president of the United States, then you are the problem. Yeah. I said it.

Don’t comment here telling me how you would never do that. Tell the asshole who thinks it’s funny.

More important, let’s change the world. I don’t know how best to do that, but I suggest that step 1 is to join an organization which is dedicated to changing the way women are treated. It’s called “NOW” — the National Organization for Women.

Even if you’re not willing (or able) to march in a protest, join anyway. Send them the fucking membership dues. They’ll put it to good use. If we should meet at a party and conversation turns to this topic, and I protest that even if you’re not an abuser you’re still part of the problem — whip out that NOW membership card, hold it high, and say, quietly but proudly, “Not me.”

Join NOW. Even if all you do is donate membership dues it’ll help. And I don’t give a flying fuck if you’ve never done anything to oppress women. If you’re a man, and you’re not the 39th president of the United States, I regard you as part of the problem.

And (it’s a shame I even have to say this) it’s high time we passed the equal rights amendment. It is almost incomprehensible that this isn’t part of our constitution. ERA NOW.

If you’re a woman, join NOW. Speak up. And (sad but true) don’t forget to protect yourself.

If you’re a man, join NOW. Speak up. And (sad but true) be ashamed. Be very ashamed.

UPDATE
Of all the things I’ve seen or read via the #YesAllWomen hashtag, this is the one that ripped my guts out:

7

UPDATE 2:

I ‘m disappointed that there are men commenting here who are so outraged at the unfairness of being called “part of the problem” they can’t let it pass unchallenged — but don’t seem at all outraged that women live under the constant threat of abuse.

For those who have whined about how unfair it is for me to lay the blame at the feet of all men, but apparently still haven’t actually listened to what women are saying, here’s what one woman has to say:


… I wondered if he would still be there when I returned alone, late at night, when the station would be desolate, and started charting another route home. The experience of feeling simultaneously threatened and unable to speak, of feeling as if I would be persecuting this man who was committing a sexual impropriety were I to pipe up and tell him to knock it off, was unsettlingly familiar.

Do you get that? “Unsettlingly familiar.”

Here’s what women are saying on twitter:


Hannah ?@bluntlystyles 24m

#YesAllWomen If more men said “don’t be that guy” to each other instead of “not all men” to women… what a wonderful world this could be.


keara ? ?@kearalong 35s

#YesAllWomen because assault didn’t have as much a lasting effect as being told I was lying about it did


Eliane Helvrich ?@ElianeHelvrich 38s

#YesAllWomen Because I’m sick of being called ‘crazy feminist bitch’ every time I talk about equal rights.


Alexia ?@Alexiasmailbox 43s

#YesAllWomen Bc is it still socially “acceptable” to declare I am NOT a feminist. Is it ok to declare I am racist?


angel ? ?@angeloxoxo 59s

#yesallwomen cause I’ve seen it happen to my own mother


Heidi ?@TheDreadess 2m

Because #YesAllWomen is a human rights issue and not about hating men … stop diverting your attention … half the human race is in pain


Amphy64 ?@Amphy64 1m

1]I came to the slow, sad realisation that my male flatmates didn’t think twice about using the 24hr Uni library, but I had to. #YesAllWomen


#YesAllWomen because ‘I have a boyfriend’ is more effective than ‘I’m not interested’—men respect other men more than my right to say no


Because I’ve already rehearsed “Take whatever you want, just don’t hurt me.” #YesAllWomen


#YesAllWomen because every time I try to say that I want gender equality I have to explain that I don’t hate men.


Men’s greatest fear is that women will laugh at them, while women’s greatest fear is that men will kill them. -Margaret Atwood #YesAllWomen


Because in about 30 states, rapists whose victims choose to keep the baby can get parental rights, like weekend visitation. WTF #YesAllWomen


#yesallwomen because apparently the clothes I wear is a more valid form of consent than the words I say


I repeat: the fact that there are male victims isn’t proof it’s not misogyny. It’s evidence that misogyny hurts men too. #YesAllWomen


The most shameful thing is that these comments were so easy to find. There are, literally, millions like them to choose from. Millions.

Here’s a comment from a man who I think actually “gets it”


Charles W Smith, MD ?@edocarkansas 23s

Good discussion about misogyny w/my 26 y.o. driving yesterday to her wedding Sat. She is often fearful. We men need to reflect! #yesallwomen


For those who still entertain the thought that saying ALL women deal with fear is overblown, or that I have no right to speak for “all women,” I’m re-posting this. This is what a woman has to say:


#YesAllWomen

Because I didn’t know I was being harassed.

Because I didn’t know it wasn’t ok.

Yes All Women.

I join this hashtag because I consider myself lucky, because I have always been surrounded by strong role models, loving family, supportive friends. I have never been raped. I have never been molested. All of my sexual experiences have been clear choices that I have made and all with people who respected me.

I am lucky.

I am tall, I am strong, I do not physically look like the sort of girl who can be easily overpowered.

Yes All Women

When we were 18, in dance clubs, sober, men grinding on us, they often grabbed our hands, put them on their crotches to feel their erections. “Look what you do to me.” I’d recoil, they didn’t seem to care. But still, that was the preferred comment, because sometimes it was the hand placed on the crotch with “how are you going to take care of this” or “you better finish this problem you started.” I’d pull my hand away, turning around, looking for someone to take refuge in and finding no friendly faces, walk casually but too quickly to the women’s room and hide.

That’s why there are couches in the women’s room, by the way. Because sometimes that is the only safe place for a woman to be. Let her sit down while she figures out how to time it so she can run out of the club but isn’t stuck standing too long exposed on the street corner waiting for the bus.

Yes All Women.

I didn’t know that was harassment.

Yes, when the older tennis pro I had just met led me to an unlit field and pushed me down, I knew that was wrong. I knew kicking him was right and I knew I was lucky that the kick hit, lucky that I had the self-esteem to kick, lucky that I had the presence of mind, lucky that my legs were long. I knew I could have told someone about that, that I should have told someone, but all I could really think was, “why did I go on a walk with him, I know better than that, I can’t let anyone know that I was so stupid.”

But when the boys at the club asked me how I was going to “take care of their hard-ons,” I thought that was just the price you paid for wanting to go dancing. And yes, I did want boys to flirt with me. I hoped someone would notice me and tell me I was pretty and I felt that’s what I deserved for that desire. That’s how boys flirted, let me know I was attractive, by telling me I owed them sex because the sight of me aroused them. That seemed normal.

Yes All Women

Because I don’t want any girls to think that is normal. Because I don’t want any girls to think it’s ok that their boss tells them they should “bend over more.” Because no one should feel they have to laugh when a guy grabs their ass and tells them “not to be so uptight.” Because being followed down an alley by someone saying he’d “love to lick that pussy” is not something that should be shrugged off as just what happens when you have a certain bra size.

Because the stories that I remember so casually are things that appall the incredible, kind, intelligent men that I know and love. Because they are shocked and because I am too, at how unquestioningly we, myself and my friends, internalized these things as the simple prices we paid for living in the world as women.

Yes All Women

Because I can talk about these things. Because I can talk about these things for the many women who can not, who dare not.

Because I am lucky.

Yes.

ALL.

Women.

121 responses to “#YesAllWomen

  1. Ralph Snyder

    I have been reading your posts for about a year now, and I have always found them interesting and informative.

    This one too.

    Have you seen Phil Plait’s post on Bad Astronomy about #YesAllWomen? There have been a number of good posts by men making various good points. Maybe this will be a spark that prompts more of us to move into some sort of action. Joining NOW is a good idea. It would also be a good idea if we could develop the courage to confront the small, everyday microaggressions that enable and legitimate violence against women, blacks, Jews, people with disabilities and all marginalized communities.

    [Response: It’s a good one, here.]

  2. Thanks! I have known you were awesome for awhile now, but this raises the bar. Yes all women, indeed. And remember, if you talk to girls and women who are your friends and family, they might not tell you all the awful things they have experienced. Many women, perhaps most, try to ignore the threat because it is hard to do any work, or live your life if you are angry and scared all the time. This doesn’t mean there is nothing to be scared of and angry about, only that it is hard to think about all the time.

    • It’s VERY hard to think about all the time. Very well said, Wendy. I know from my own experiences that usually it’s just easier to roll my eyes and not be confrontational. After all, look what happens when we do speak up: the Not All Men accuse us of “playing the victim” (such as on Twitter today), or else we get called names or insulted personally by self-proclaimed arbiters of “truth” (see below). Or worse, much worse, especially in face-to-face situations.

      But I’m really encouraged, seeing Tamino not backing down on this one. There are men who ignore or belittle me when I say “You’re scaring me” or “please leave me alone.” They call me “too sensitive”, say I “can’t take a joke”, verbally pat me on the pretty little head and go on because they can’t face the possibility that they might just be part of the problem too. Men like that don’t listen to people like me. Who knows but they might listen to another man, especially if more and more speak up and say, “This shit isn’t OK.”

  3. I just joined NOW. Thank you for the kick in the pants.

    [Response: Thank you! This is the best response I could have hoped for.]

    • You are most welcome. I don’t have anything to add to this conversation, but I do think it is important to show support and agreement. Your suggestion was a small step in the right direction.

  4. No, all men aren’t the problem, and no, all men did not let this happen. Nor are all men guilty because this happened — that, too, is a unfair and overwrought generalization.

    There are some things we each can control in this world, and some things we cannot. Calling out everyone we disagree with isn’t a solution. Getting hypermad isn’t a solution. Changing attitudes is the solution, and this is almost always done quietly, individually, steadily, opportunistically, smartly. Teach your children respect, and your nephews, and your grandsons. But reacting angrily to a mass shooting by a sociopath isn’t going to accomplish much but spread around more anger, which our country is already drowning in.

    “Be the change you wish to see in the world.”
    – Mahatma Gandhi

    [Response: You are part of the problem. For a lot of reasons, including the fact that you seem to think that what’s got me so upset is the recent killing spree.]

    • Bern from Aus

      You know, Dave, when I started reading Tamino’s post I was thinking just the same. But Tamino is right. A quiet word in private is the sort of action that lets abuse thrive. Just ask the Catholic Church how effective a ‘quiet word’ is…
      We need to call these misogynists out in public, make a scene, embarrass the fuck out of them. You can be sure if you do, most women present will be quietly applauding, if not overtly so. And it just might get through to some men that, hey, maybe they need to rethink their attitudes.

      • Just ask the Catholic Church how effective a ‘quiet word’ is…

        Not an analagous situation at all.

        We need to call these misogynists out in public, make a scene, embarrass the fuck out of them.

        For people who don’t care about others feeling’s in the first place, and perhaps not even their own, that kind of bile solves nothing.

        I don’t know if you’ve ever confronted an abuser — directly confronted them to the point of physically challenging their abuse of a woman — but it is not simple as “making a scene” or “embarassing” them. You end the situation by leaving. You call the police if necessary. You demonstrate that not all men are like that, that men can be strong and respectful and caring. And you teach that when you have a chance to teach.

        But confronting some idiots who aren’t acting the way you want can quickly lead to an ugly escalation that worsens everything, angers everyone, reinforces ugly feelings and accomplishes precisely nothing.

        Look at the struggle for gay rights. It didn’t happen by getting in every homophobe’s face about their ugliness. It is being won by dignity and spirit and intelligence and reason and, when necessary, walking away, and then by walking to where it is you want the world to be and encouraging it to follow.

      • What the fuck? The gay rights movement most certainly includes getting in homophobes’ faces. Gays didn’t sit around waiting for people to be nice to them; they rioted, paraded, and launched hundreds of lawsuits.

      • There were very, very few riots in the struggle for gay rights.

        Parades are much different that vigorously confronting individual homophobes. They are in many ways the opposite — expressions of spirit and dignity. So are lawsuits. These are the things that have changed opinions.

    • The wrong sort of comments about women happen all the time around other men, and they don’t speak up or indicate disapproval. If two or three men at a time would do so, it would go a long way toward changing behavior. Men do many things towards women precisely because no one ever calls them on it, they think it’s ok, or they simply don’t think at all, and they certainly don’t think of the women as fellow human beings. Men who are aware and turn aside are complicit. I assume they feel some kind of shame or just suppress it.

      I certainly am grateful to Tamino for posting his thoughts on this.

  5. Dan J. Andrews

    Since NOW is a US organization perhaps men in other countries might want to join their own national women’s organization. In Canada, there is the National Council of Women of Canada (http://www.ncwc.ca/), which is a national affiliate of the International Council of Women; they also work with two other major women’s organizations here in Canada.

    Then there is the Canadian Women’s Foundation (http://www.canadianwomen.org/), which seems to be a growing grassroots organization that is more similar to NOW than perhaps the ones above, although they all have the same goal.

    I get pretty furious over a lot of social inequity, but the more I read on this the more I wanted to just wipe out the whole fricking human race because it just seemed broken beyond any hope of redemption or repair and even the “good” guys were so immersed in society’s negative attitudes towards women they didn’t even recognize that the things they were saying were, if not outright offensive, then indicative of the very problem they claimed to be against. (and that makes me worry about what attitudes have I incorporated that I’ve still not been able to recognize). Bloody hell, we’re a f**king stupid species–I’m sure if a deity existed it’d would have wiped us out ages ago.

  6. Bella Green

    Thank you, thank you, thank you. We need good men on our side, Tamino. I have a daughter who just turned 18 and is headed to college, and I can’t put into words how terrified I am for her. I sometimes weep for the state of the world she has to navigate. I don’t have a lot of faith, but your post gives me some hope.

    Again, thank you, and a salute to Dave X!

  7. Hear, hear. I will be donating when I get home tonight.

  8. I was a lobbyist for NOW in the ’70s, so I have a head start on all of you. Nyah.

  9. Really good to see this here, tamino. Sometimes the OT posts are among the best. And here’s another one of my daily internet visits: a very empathic and knowledgeable (duh) scientist with a heart of gold who has been posting on women’s issues for years and years, and whom I have been fortunate to meet in person, even though I reside in Ireland (which is where the ‘o’ in my handle comes from):
    Pharyngula blog
    Most of you like-minded libruls already know about PZ’s blog, but… just in case.

  10. Reblogged this on MJL Therapeutic Massage and commented:
    Wonderfull to hear a man so passionate about women’s need to be free from fear! I wish more women were this passionate about their own rights.

  11. Clearly this was all spurned by the recent killings in California, done by a sociopath who hated everyone, not just women.

    No, I don’t accept responsibility for the actions and attitudes of others. I’ve witnessed my share of misogny and abuse against women — it is not something I accept or condone, nor something I propagate,

    Whatever your anger is about, deal with it yourself and stop casting vicious aspersions against half of the world’s population.

    [Response: Wrong. It was not “spurned” by the recent killings. That asshole was a psycho, and while I mourn the victims of his violence I am (sadly) de-sensitized to that.

    It was spurred by the outpouring of stories from women, so many stories from so many women, about how they have been belittled and abused, and far too often, raped. It was spurred by remembering that all the women in my life — my mother, both my sisters, and my wife — have stories of sexual harassment and/or assault. Not some abstract statistics, stories of things that happened to them. It was spurred by thinking about the times someone in my own hearing said some crude remark which reinforces misogyny, and while I certainly don’t condone or accept that attitude I failed to speak up.

    I’ve added a picture to the end of this post. That’s why I’m so angry. If it doesn’t make you angry then you are even more “part of the problem” than I’ve suggested so far.

    But I really, really do have to pity you. Poor you — how terrible it must feel to be the object of scorn just because of your gender.]

    • Robert Murphy

      “Wrong. It was not “spurned” by the recent killings.”

      #YesAllWomen was specifically created because of the recent killings. That’s the title of this post. If the killings hadn’t happened, you would not have written your rant.

      “..and while I certainly don’t condone or accept that attitude I failed to speak up.”

      Don’t take out your failings on everybody else. And this may shock you, but your failing to speak up didn’t cause those bastards to rape that woman in the picture you posted. It had nothing at all to do with the ERA not being passed. It wasn’t because somebody made a crude comment to a woman. It was because they are sociopaths. Period. Put the blame where it belongs.

      Women in the USA have more rights and protections than just about anyplace on Earth. We don’t stone to death our women in “honor killings” like they do in Pakistan, for instance. Those are the real shit-hole places for women to live. Most women in the USA are not scared to death for their safety, despite your assertions. This isn’t Saudi Arabia. Your claim that ALL women are victims is patronizing bullshit, seeing them as the equivalent of children who can’t take care of themselves.

      Your self-loathing isn’t going to help anybody. Your accusations against all men are beyond the pale. I will never feel ashamed for something I did not do, nor responsibility for the sick actions of others that I have no control over. Collective guilt is for totalitarians. I’ll have none of it.

      Stick to statistical attacks against climate change deniers; you’re excellent at it.

      [Response: If the killings HAD happened but women across America (not Pakistan) had NOT poured out their hearts telling stories of abuse, I wouldn’t have posted this. If the killings had NOT happened but women across America HAD poured out their hearts, this post would be the same. It is NOT because of the killings — it’s because YES ALL WOMEN put up with this shit, all the time.

      And if you really believe that “Most women in the USA are not scared to death for their safety,” then you have totally, utterly missed the point of #YesAllWomen.

      This is what my wife had to say when she read your comment:

      “When we get into an elevator, or take out the trash, or walk into a dark parking lot, I don’t know if you’re one of the ones who would do it. I don’t know. Excuse the fuck out of me if you’re worried about being offended. I’m worried about being assaulted.”]

      • Robert Murphy

        : “If the killings HAD happened but women across America (not Pakistan) had NOT poured out their hearts telling stories of abuse, I wouldn’t have posted this.”

        So your claim that this was not about the killings in California (where 4 men died) was bullshit. Thanks for confirming what everybody else knew.

        “It is NOT because of the killings — it’s because YES ALL WOMEN put up with this shit, all the time.”

        Twice as many men died than women in this attack. Since you consider them guilty obviously you don’t care about their deaths. I do.

        “This is what my wife had to say when she read your comment:…”

        The fact your wife is as clueless as you is supposed to mean something to me?

        [Response: Thank you for telling my wife that the fear she copes with on a regular basis is just her being “clueless.”

        Why are you so desperate to make this about the killings in California? I think it’s just a cowardly attempt to deflect attention from the point of this post. Which is: the fear and abuse that women live with every day. Yes. All. Women.

        THAT IS THE POINT.

        You’re not just part of the problem.]

      • Robert Murphy

        “Thank you for telling my wife that the fear she copes with on a regular basis is just her being “clueless.””

        You’re welcome. The truth isn’t always something people want to hear.

        [edit]

        [Response: You’re not just part of the problem. You are the problem.]

      • Damn you tamino, you snipped the asshole misogynist’s post. I was almost done filling out my bingo card!

        http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070414.431/anti-feminist-bingo-a-master-class-in-sexual-entitlement/

        (I laugh because the alternative is to end up punching something very hard.)

      • Which is: the fear and abuse that women live with every day. Yes. All. Women.

        Now you’re speaking for all women. You know how they all live, every day.

        It’s a generalization just as overwrought as finding all men necessarily guilty for the attitudes and actions of some of them.

        [Response: Why don’t you go tell Bella Green that her fears for her daughter’s safety at college just show how “clueless” she is? Somehow, I doubt it will make her feel better — but it might comfort your bruised ego.

        I didn’t invent the hashtag. Women did. You have shown us all why it’s essential.]

      • “Women in the USA have more rights and protections than just about anyplace on Earth. We don’t stone to death our women in “honor killings” like they do in Pakistan, for instance.”

        Nothing like setting a high bar for our aspirations.

      • “Most women in the USA are not scared to death for their safety, despite your assertions.”

        Bullshit. You might try talking to the women in your life. But you first must behave in such a way that they trust you to listen. Every woman with whom I have such conversations endures a constant low level of fear. Every one had endured sexual harassment. And every one had been in a situation where sexual assault was a clear and present threat. Sadly, in some cases, that threat was realized.

        In my opinion, Tamino’s point is correct: the appropriate response to the status quo is outrage. And yes, shame–we have tolerated this shit for far too long, even though most of us haven’t actively perpetrated the worst abuses. We haven’t stood up (most of us) and said, “wrong!” We need to.

      • bananastrings

        I work in a public, liberal arts university in the heart of the US. The rate of sexual abuse on campus is much lower than the national average for college campuses. I just went through a week of reading graduating seniors’ final “letters to (my university).” A good third of the letters mentioned the need for better lighting on campus. A good 15% talked about sexual abuse being under-reported. Several told stories of outright misogyny in the classroom and total fails where the campus police were concerned.

        When the sun goes down, a good 85-90% of the women walking around campus will be on cellphones. Perhaps 10-15% of men will be.

        I have been held at gunpoint during a robbery. Part of it was being moved to the back room of the gas station where I was working, and this was six months after an execution-style murder took place in the back room of another gas station. After the experience, every person who walked through the door was the gunman–appearance/gender/age didn’t make the slightest difference. I thought that if I let my guard down with a particular group (e.g. old white guys), I’d pay for it.

        Even though I now work in education–or perhaps because I now work in education–every person (students, staff, faculty) on campus is still a potential shooter.

        it would be easy to tell myself to get over it, but what’s the advantage in doing so? It can still happen. The shooter can still be anyone. A surface assessment (skin color, gender, clothing, etc.) is useless, worse than useless, since it forces me to do a calculation that has no basis in concrete evidence. Maybe a gun will make me feel less paranoid, or it might amplify my paranoia and focus it on using the gun rather than on doing what I do, which is helping to develop a society that catches the potential shooters mid-trajectory and brings them to a safe landing.

        Now I talk to people. I encourage dialogue. I try to find out what motivates people and how they see the world. Their reactions to particular questions help me assess their willingness to snap and cross socially-constructed lines.

        There’s nothing any single person can do, one-on-one, to help me get over my paranoia. Wearing a T-shirt that says, “I’m not a shooter!” isn’t going to work. It’s probably going to make me more paranoid. Saying “Not all of us!” works the same way. When I walk across campus at night, I want to do something. I want to scream “not all of us! Not me!” I don’t even want to walk across campus at night anymore because the pressure of being all men smacks me upside the head repeatedly.

        Yes, there are sociopaths/psychopaths. Then there are good friends, fathers, husbands: “Not me, honey! Remember, I married you. I want to protect and nurture you!” Snap. “Not me, citizen! I’m a public politician/police officer/member of the clergy/teacher/nice guy! I’m here to serve.” Snap.

        Who is anyone? Everyone. It’s an everyday, ongoing struggle to trust people. Everyone has a stake in it, and everyone can do something about it. You shouldn’t need prodding to help create a better world, even if you think you’re already a saint.

      • Murphy, the violence against women needs to stop. More than a million women are assaulted by their partners every year:

        http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf

      • Murphy: “We don’t stone to death our women in “honor killings” like they do in Pakistan, for instance.”

        Tell me, Robert: what should we do with our women? Beat them about the head like bad dogs when they get uppity, should we? Well, at least it wouldn’t be stoning them to death. One must manage one’s possessions well, mustn’t one?

        /sarc

  12. [Sorry everyone for the OT question – a little question for the author of Understanding Statistics]

    Ok, I’ll start with some quotes.

    [Bender, Biometrical Journal, 2005]
    Let δ be the parameter of interest and δ0 the chosen null value for the effect, a one-sided test problem is given by
    H0: δ≤ δ0 vs. H1: δ> δ0 or H0: δ≥0 vs. H1: δ< δ0

    [Bland, BMJ, 1994]
    In a one sided test the alternative hypothesis does specify a direction – for example, that an active treatment is better than a placebo. This is sometimes justified by saying that we are not interested in the possibility that the active treatment is worse than no treatment. This possibility is still part of the test; it is part of the null hypothesis, which now states that the difference in the population is zero or in favour of the placebo.

    In Understanding Statistics (p. 194) it's written that one might be tempted to include a tail in H0 [what they do, if I don't misunderstand it], but that's not the right thing to do. I'd like to have this concept further explained. Why one should not do it? And, without re-stating H0, are we in the situation where pH0 + pH1 does not equal to 1? (If so, is this a problem?).

    I'm sure I'll have an answer as clear as your great book is.
    Thank you in advance.

    [Response: From a “conceptual” point of view, of course the “null” hypothesis includes the tail. But from a practical standpoint, if H_o includes that tail then you simply can’t compute the probability of getting the observed result. In order to compute the probability we have to *know* the true value, and H_o: m = m_o enables us to do that. Unfortunately, H_o: m <= m_o does not.]

  13. Jonathan Gilligan

    Thank you.

  14. Thank you!

  15. Expect this to be taken down. Your commentators misogynist attacks on Judith Curry here over the past year were given free and open reign, even when I complained here and at other sites. Shame on you for double standards.

    [Response: Which comments were *misogynist*? Let’s have the links.]

    • “Aunt Judy’s product is confusion.”
      https://tamino.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/one-of-the-problems-with-judith-curry/#comment-84091

      “I think Judy Judy Judy is now saying BEST has done an analysis allowing an apples to apples comparison…”
      https://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/judith-curry-opens-mouth-inserts-foot/#comment-55923

      “Aunt Judy is incompetent and quite probably biased.”
      https://tamino.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/true-lies/#comment-84252

      “Slither on back to Aunt Judy’s.”
      https://tamino.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/more-on-david-roses-nonsense/#comment-72496

      [Response: Those comments are NOT misogynist. They’re insulting, but the only thing they have to do with gender is that she’s called “Aunt Judy” rather than “Uncle Judy” because she’s a woman. It’s no more misogynist than calling Anthony Watts “Willard Tony” is misandrist. As for “Judy Judy Judy,” it’s a reference to a then-famous line in a movie by Cary Grant. It’s no more misogynist than calling you a “fucking idiot” is misandrist.

      The only misogynist comment I’ve seen was quickly objected to, by me *and* by Snarkrates.

      Judith Curry has been roundly criticized here, by me and by my readers, for her *opinions* and her *statements*. Just like a all the men I’ve criticized. She will continue to be criticized as long as she persists in what I consider to be idiotic, dishonest, and destructive statements.

      It is a shame — on you — that you are so out of touch with what women have to endure, even when called upon to point out misogyny you can’t get it right.]

      • I find “Aunt Judy” to be low but not neutral on the scale. Pielke, Lindzen, Goddard, Eschenbach, and other such fools get mocked — but only Curry gets a pat on the head. I’ve found it grating for a long time, and am now wishing I’d commented about it early.

        [Response: I disagree — it never struck me as a “pat on the head” — but I see your point. So, I’ll find another monicker for Prof. Curry.]

      • A different moniker doesn’t really help: what I find curious and uncomfortable is that the woman gets a moniker, whereas none of the men do. Willard Tony is the man’s name, and the other deniers are generally referred to by their last name or their pen name. If we were all writing “Uncle Spencer” and “Brother John” and so on, “Aunt Judy” wouldn’t raise any flags.

      • It is a shame — on you — that you are so out of touch with what women have to endure, even when called upon to point out misogyny you can’t get it right.]

        Shame on your for implying you know what all women have to “endure,” and then blaming all men for your imaginings.

        [edit]

        [Response: I didn’t know what all women have to endure. Then I started LISTENING.

        YOU are the one who assumes you know — I prefer to believe what they say.]

      • David,
        Critics always marveled at James Joyce’s ability to reproduce a woman’s thought processes. Finally, one actually thought to ask him how he did it. He said that he asked his wife. Women have not been silent on this issue, and what they’ve said is clearly consistent with Tamino’s depiction. Have you truly never seen a woman relax a little when you–an unknown man–cross to the other side of a dark street. Surely, you would not disagree that all men could do more to put an end to the rape-tolerance that pervades our culture.

      • Numerobis,
        I disagree. Judy has earned the scorn we hold her in. She is a lightweight who has certainly done much more to obfuscate than clarify climate science and science in general. Dick Lindzen is just flat dishonest–the term “dick” is appropriate. And I usually refer to Tony “Micro” Watts. Sexism would be giving Judy a pass on her BS because of her gender.

      • I didn’t know what all women have to endure. Then I started LISTENING.

        You’ve listened to all women? Of course you haven’t. You’ve extrapolated from a self-selected group — those posting to a hashtag created because of a sociopathic murderer — and assumed they represent all women.

        [Response: In the last several days I’ve been asking all the women I know well enough to ask about this. The result is shocking. When I asked if they ever actually *do* things out of fear of assault, not only did ALL of them say yes, they had a long list of things that — according to them — EVERY woman and girl needs to know how to do. Maybe just as shocking is that they view the whole thing as necessarily “automatic” — it’s just “part of being a woman” — of course you cross the street to avoid those guys, of course you never put down your drink at a party or a bar, of course you ask a friend to walk you home (or just to your car!) after dark, of course you travel in groups whenever possible, of course you check in with your friends to let them know you got home safe, of course you give serious thought to carrying pepper spray for self-defense. Maybe the most common phrase in their responses was “of course,” as though it’s so obvious why did I even bother to ask?

        Yes. ALL the women I’ve asked.

        But you — David Appell — are so afraid of accepting the truth that you’ll make any desperately stupid comment (like “You’ve listened to all women?”) rather than admit it to yourself. Women are talking. I’m listening. What I hear makes me afraid and ashamed.

        And if by some chance you actually are asking women about this (but I doubt it) and they don’t tell you the same story, maybe it’s because they pick up on the fact that you’ve already made up your mind it isn’t true so they just don’t feel safe enough to confide in you. Because you — David Appell — are the problem.

        You will remain the problem until you shut your mouth long enough to get your ears working.]

      • maybe it’s because they pick up on the fact that you’ve already made up your mind it isn’t true so they just don’t feel safe enough to confide in you.

        That’s an unjustified personal attack that crosses the line.

        You call for understanding, but can’t even demonstrate it yourself. You are so sure you are right you can’t handle anyone here disagreeing with you — you have to insult them and make a rude and vile personal accusation, itself a form of abuse.

        Because you know everything, and how everyone else feels, even people you’ve never met. You aren’t content with expressing your opinion and encouraging action — the differing opinions of others must be crushed, by personal attacks and lying if necessary.

        “Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength.”
        ― Eric Hoffer

        [Response: I hoped you might realize that your attitude makes it difficult, if not impossible, for women to confide their real feelings to you.

        In response, you call me a liar and accuse me of abuse. What a paragon of lofty ideals!

        Let’s ask the women who are reading this. Women readers: would you feel safe enough with David Appell to confide in him?]

    • Surely, you would not disagree that all men could do more to put an end to the rape-tolerance that pervades our culture.

      Sure — and in lots of other troubling areas of life on this blood-drenched planet too. But that also isn’t the issue here — it’s whether all women walk around in constant fear and whether all men are guilty for that, and whether the most judicious and effective way to deal with it is always direct confrontation.

      [Response: We are done with you.]

      • “…whether the most judicious and effective way to deal with it is always direct confrontation.”

        Situational appropriateness is a pragmatic concern. It’s worth considering ‘best practice.’ And if you are speaking with someone whose behavior (shall we say) raises concerns, then attack is generally not the best way to get them to listen.

        However, at a social level, quiet politesse, though often preferred by those who aren’t actually forced to think about the problem very often, tends not to be very effective. Changing a pervasive cultural attitude takes more than a quiet word or two. Insistence is mandatory. (And imagination is helpful.)

      • “Let’s ask the women who are reading this. Women readers: would you feel safe enough with David Appell to confide in him?”

        Um, no. We call it the “creep factor” and we can smell him a mile away. This is the guy at the bar laughing loudly at the “Bitch” jokes. This is the one you tell you have a boyfriend in the bathroom because you know your polite “no thank you” is going to be met with derision. He refers to his wife as his “Old Lady” and cracks jokes about her with his friends. This is the guy who promises you “he’s different,” he’s “not like those other guys” until you find your hand on his crotch and he’s asking you what you’re going to do about this “problem you created.” He’s cat calling you from the construction site as you walk by, where there are 20 more just like him who ignore your reddened face and hurried steps. Newsflash, David Appell. WOMEN created the hashtag, not men. And more and more of us are realizing these are things we never even think about because they are so ingrained. They are defensive things, and the author’s assertion that we say to him, “Of course!” and look at him like he’s an idiot is fact. OF COURSE we do them. We’d be stupid not to, and then, when something bad happened (not if, when) we’d be blamed for causing it because we were stupid. “Watch my drink, while I go to the bathroom.” “Walk me to my car.” “Text me when you get home.” “Come with me to the library, it’s dark.” “Is this blouse too low cut?” “He grabbed my ass, can I pretend you’re my boyfriend for a minute?” “He had the creep factor, so I just gave him a fake phone number and got out of there.” #YesALLWomen Yes, David Appell. ALL. WOMEN. And our heroes are the guys that stand up and say, “Dude, Knock it off. Not cool.” You, sir, are not him.

      • If Mr. Appell is as lacking in empathy in other matters as he is here, then, yes, it is likely that he would not be a man that women would turn to to speak with someone about these matters.

    • In the last several days I’ve been asking all the women I know well enough to ask about this.

      And then you extrapolated to all women, and blamed all men.

      That is hardly justified, or scientific.

      [Response: Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s not ALL women. Maybe the “consensus” is only 97%.

      When it comes to this issue, I guess I’ll refer to you as a “denier.”]

  16. Thanks Grant.

  17. “Women in the USA have more rights and protections than just about anyplace on Earth.”

    Robert Murphy displays that delicious combination of arrogance and ignorance that leads me to expect that he is an American. If “better than Saudi Arabia” is your bar, well happy for you you have achieved it.

    That is the same character flaw that leads one to call another “clueless” for being afraid of a 25% probability of being raped.

  18. In my view, sexual abuse and misogyny are the inevitable outcome of social systems based on domination, as are racism, xenophobia, religious hatred, homophobia, ageism, disablism, poverty and ecocide.

    I work as a disability policy officer in the UK. My work is underpinned by the Social Model of Disability. This recognises that disablement is caused by the institutional, environmental and attitudinal barriers to equality and inclusion that arise from the way that we organise society, and which are imposed on people *on top of* their impairments and chronic health conditions.

    This understanding of disability provides the basis for the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which the USA has yet to ratify.

    The Social Model does not deny the impact that impairments and health conditions have on people’s lives. But viewed through its lens, disability is perceived as a structural problem which we have a collective responsibility to eradicate. In other words, to get rid of disablement we need to change society.

    As individuals we obviously have a personal responsibility to challenge our own ingrained attitudes and behaviours and, when appropriate, the attitudes and behaviours of others. But ridding ourselves of the scourge of sexism, misogyny, sexual abuse, disablism and all the rest of it demands that we transform the structures and institutions of our increasingly globalised society.

    I suggest that intense competition, exploitation, domination and short-termism are the deep causes of the multitude of problems that we face as a civilisation…including sexual abuse and anthropogenic global warming. If we recognise this and focus our efforts on building a society based on cooperation, partnership, ecological sustainability and on fulfilling our responsibilities to future generations, we may yet dodge the bullet.

  19. A little careful observation of women – passing men in the street, in bars and social gatherings – makes clear the constant threat potential that women see in men. Usually it’s subtle, but you can see it always and everywhere, if you look. It’s awful. And you can feel it, if you are a man and sensitive; that you are a potential monster until proven otherwise. So I speak out in the presence of mysogyny, mainly because it is deeply abhorrent and destructive, and it’s the right thing to do generally, but fractionally because it taints me just because of my gender.

    But I don’t speak out enough. I do wonder about what David Apell argues, if being effective is more important than being outspoken. But it’s not easy to make that call in the moment, and some might argue, validly, that there is no difference on this issue. At work, a male manager was being inappropriately physical with younger female staff, massaging their shoulders as he wandered the floor. Rather than denounce him on the spot, I took it to a female manager who spoke to him and the behaviour stopped. I don’t know if it was better coming from me (a male underling), from her (a female peer), from a male peer, or if it would have been better to call it in the moment with everyone around. Is public shaming each and every time the best way?

    I’ll appreciate advice on that. Generally, I will speak out more often.

    [Response: I don’t know which is the best choice. But I do know the worst choice: “let it pass.” Thank you for taking action. Be proud.]

  20. I do know some guys who are doing good work in this area, and who merit inclusion in the “Carter club.” (Can’t resist the alliteration.) See:

    http://www.menstoppingviolence.org

    They do great work in helping abusers change, and in promoting a culture of respect.

  21. NOTE: There are two updates at the end of this post. Please read them.

  22. Unfortunately, privilege is a subtle thing. As a white male in our society, perceiving our privilege is like a fish perceiving the water in which it swims.

    It is sometimes easier to see things in other cultures–for example the horrific rapes that occurred in Delhi over the past few years, or the use of rape as a weapon of war in civil conflicts from Bosnia to the Congo. But remember one in 4 women report being raped in our own society, and given how under reported rape is, the incidence is probably much, much higher. That is higher than in many war zones.

    And when women do report rape, all to often, they hear questions like:

    “What was she wearing?”

    “What was she doing out at that time of night?”

    “Why was she in that area?”

    “What did she do to lead him on?”

    “Where was her husband/brother/uncle…?”

    “Why didn’t she have a gun/whistle/pepper spray?”

    I applaud Tamino for attacking rape culture. Rape culture thrives on silence. Rapists are cowards and bullies. Confront them and they will crawl back under their rock.

    And here

    • And why aren’t you and Tamino charging over to India to stop this — you know, confront the rapists and abusers face-to-face?

      [Response: Thank you so much. Your arguments discredit your viewpoint better than I ever could.]

      • David, you need to learn to fold when dealt a losing hand.

        Or…Wanna play poker some time?

      • Ech, David. I gave you some credit for your first couple of posts, but you just wiped it out and then some with this remark.

      • “And why aren’t you and Tamino charging over to India..?”

        Because it’s cheaper and more effective to confront them where I live (and am fluent in local culture and language.) Rapists, unfortunately, aren’t in short supply.

      • Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

        Remember this before you post again.

      • Because I don’t need him in India. India has its own heroes. We need him here, because I am not safe HERE. Simple concept, David. You make a difference where you stand, because it is the right thing to do. Not doing so because someone, somewhere has it worse is illogical and ridiculous. You may not change the world, but if you change it for one person, you have changed that person’s world. No one is asking any one man to do it alone. Being part of a solution is heroic stuff in every world. Dodging and deflecting in cowardice as though the problem is not real? Not so much.

  23. I have nothing particularly useful to say, so I’ll just say thank you for posting this.

  24. My son will be seven in a few months. One of the things that troubles me already about the next seven years and beyond is that he will be exposed to the misogyny of porn as he grows into adolescence and his attitudes to sex are forming.

    It’s old news that this distorts the perceptions and behaviour of young males and fosters misogyny.

    I know that I will have to speak early and probably often to him about the wrongness of what he is seeing. However embarrassing for him this may be.

    It seems to me that the parents of boys – particularly the fathers of boys – have a huge responsibility to educate them about the difference between empathic sex and the abuse they will see online. They must try to get across that what they are seeing is dehumanising and degrading to women.

    Saying little or saying nothing is not an option, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that this is widespread. If we are going to make things better, this must change.

    • Here’s my trajectory, in case it helps you figure out how to raise your kid:

      My father helped me out *a lot* just by calling out misogyny once in a while. E.g. pointing out how we often call prominent women by their first name, but men by their last; or pointing out that the improbability that his department were actually hiring the best people and ending up 100% white male; or calling me out when I said stupid things like “X is a woman’s job”.

      He was also pretty clear about violence being a bad thing: I wasn’t to hit or otherwise abuse anyone for any reason — nor any animals, for that matter (except to eat them; he was sad when I later became vegetarian). I assume he went into detail about not hurting loved ones in particular.

      I didn’t get any sex ed from my parents. I knew I shouldn’t go throw myself at a stranger in the alley and rape her, but I had to wait for university to understand that rape is also (and usually) between people who know each other, and until much later to really understand how consent works. So you could improve on that in your son’s education.

      As for porn, I never watched porn — it’s never been my thing, not even in my most hormone-addled years. But I still said and thought stupid things. Still do, in fact. It’s hard to avoid learning misogyny when *all* media outlets are awash in it.

      My particular field of work is among the worst: our society screams at the top of its lung the lie that women can’t be good programmers — a lie that with constant repetition ended up worming itself into my brain within a couple years of university. I’m still working on that infection, 15 years on.

    • BBD,
      Your son will be curious about women. He will find ways to satisfy that curiosity one way or another. You won’t get far trying to suppress basic human drives. Maybe you can teach him there is a difference between “porn,” which denigrates women, and erotica, which celebrates sexuality.

  25. Thank you, Tamino. As a father and grandfather of girls, we need to stop this. Now. As someone who runs in darkness and light, I know that I am safe from people (cars? – that’s another thing.) because I have nothing of any real value on me, but that a woman does not have the same feeling of safety. I always have assumed that female runners I come across regard me as a potentially dangerous person, just by virtue of being XY. Not by anything I have done, but what others have done.

    When I hear stories told by my female friends, I know what women go through. All of them. Being a safe friend helps; listening is always good. Don’t know if it’s enough.

  26. Pingback: Yes Another #YesAllWomen Blog Post - Michaela Miles - Author

  27. Just to answer:
    Let’s ask the women who are reading this. Women readers: would you feel safe enough with David Appell to confide in him?

    I wouldn’t even trust him enough to tell him why I’m not confiding in him.

    • Let’s ask the women who are reading this. Women readers: would you feel safe enough with David Appell to confide in him?

      It is rude and unfortunate that Tamino allows such personal attacks on is blog. Another sign of a lack of objectivity and thoughtless zealotry.

      [Response: Keep it up.]

    • Bella Green

      I have no idea how old David Appell is, so I’ll cover everything. Nope, wouldn’t confide. Wouldn’t want to be alone with him. Wouldn’t allow my daughter to be alone with him. Wouldn’t want any woman to be alone with him, really. He’s appallingly angry and in deep denial.

  28. Hank Roberts

    > necessarily “automatic” — it’s just “part of being a woman” — of course

    These automatic careful choices match what I’ve heard, and I’ve been trying to learn about this for near on 50 years now. I’ve noticed some very young women lately who aren’t as aware of these cautions. Fortunately, telling them to ‘oogle the warnings wakes them up to what’s still quite ‘normal’ out there to be careful about.

    Young adult woman from a rural background, rural college, new to the city:
    “I can’t believe anyone would drug a drink …”
    Me: “Google it. Live and learn, or don’t.”

  29. I’m getting old now, but in my youth had problems with women. More particularly, I became obsessed with a couple of girls, and I guess harassed them rather more than was reasonable. No doubt they felt a bit uncomfortable, and given the things men in that position can do, they may have been a bit scared. But hopefully they weren’t.

    But for me, it was so intense and painful. I’d wake up every morning, and sometimes have a minute of being happy before I remembered that I was “in love”. But time heals, and it only took about 6 months to get back to a state or relative normalcy. Note that these feelings were not a product of social values. What I did with them probably was.

    In all such things I thank God it wasn’t worse. I was not completely overwhelmed, and I got over it. I could accept how things were, even if I hated it. Even more so, I’m grateful that I am not one of those who finds children sexually attractive. For if I did, I don’t know what path I would have taken.

    I accept that societies values affect the way people behave. I’m sure that any male friends I had at the time would have pulled me up if I’d started talking about stalking the objects of my obsession. They would, I’m sure, have advised me not to be a dickhead. Lets face it, this “in love” stuff is a form of temporary madness…

    I’m in Australia. I don’t know much about cultural values in other countries. But while sexist values are a problem, I think there are other values that are equally to blame. In particular, the focus on the external rather than the internal. If you aren’t happy with something, you can change the world, or change yourself. In the US it seems to me that there is too much externalising, and not enough owning of painful emotions. Which is not to say that we don’t have our share of dickheads in Australia…

    • Bella Green

      John, it was brave of you to share that. Thank you for sharing – and for growing up. Your assignment now, should you choose to accept it, is to take the dickheads in hand and point out to them the error of their ways, and to do whatever you can to make the women you know feel safer. Thank you. Seriously, man. Thank you.

  30. cRR Kampen

    Sorry, no. I will not be held responsible like this, here, as if Tamino (and some others) only just discovered the ffing gender genocide (what? E.g. look at gender ratio in India and go find me 100 million women! Main cause of death of fertile aged women in many a country is men, yes).

    “I just joined NOW. Thank you for the kick in the pants.” – needs kicking another 47 years (my age) daily.

    As a cry from the heart, Tamino, f#ck yes I side with you. In arms. Still, I’m lucky, having been raised in enlightenment, so above kicking may have to be slightly milder than I intended.

  31. Hi Tamino
    Welcome back. I just read this and I don’t accept that as a man I am responsible for the actions of other men, and I don’t feel the need to beat myself up because some men are assholes. Of course, as the father of daughters I fear for their future, but I also fear for the future of my son. Hyperbole just weakens your case.

  32. I feel a need to comment – and am not at all sure how these will come across but have to say them anyway.

    1) Society has hammered into us that stereotyping is wrong. I think that’s what David Appell is inflamed about. Not every specific man is a problem – but the male gender is. Subtle difference, but when the stereotypical accusation is that I personally am a potential rapist, then i’m going to get defensive. That does not make me a problem, but then it does not absolve me from the “guilt by association” due to my having a hangy-down thingy.

    2) I have never – that i know of – given a woman a reason to fear me. Does that mean that no woman has ever feared me? I’d be naive to think that, but if one did i would hope she (or someone she knows) would let me know. I do not consider the way in which i walk down the street to be confrontational and i do not know how, if it is being construed as confrontational, to change it. I would also hope that the woman (or her designate) would talk to me about it before reinforcing their concerns via fisticuffs. I am readily willing to admit being wrong, and will correct things when given a chance. All I ask is to be given the chance (or to explain why I feel my accuser is in error).

    3) There is never – NEVER a reason for a man to hit a woman. I was taught that by my father, and have taught that to my son. Even if she’s beating the tar out of you, you are not to hit her. You can try and stop the damage (best done by walking away), but hitting is never allowed. If i ever caught my son doing so, I’d handle it in a very strong way that he would know my position.

    4) Have I ever stepped in when i saw something? Yes. Years ago, I was at a party (mostly military men) where one of the hosts (who was engaged) was making moves on one of the guests (definitely not his fiance). He made it clear to “the guys” that his goal was to get her into bed that night. “The guys” egged him on, and applauded his choice in potential bed-mates. I found several opportunities to talk to her and made it clear that she needed to be very careful, and specifically with the host. After multiple such warnings, she gave me an understanding look. She and I became friends – she and the host stopped talking soon after the party.

    5) Have I ever not stepped in? I’m sure I’m guilty of that too – but coming up with a specific example is difficult right now.

    And finally, for reasons completely separate from this discussion, I will not now, nor will i ever join the National Organization for Women (NOW). And I will strongly oppose anyone who says that my not doing so shows I’m a mysogynist.

    [Response: Thank you for warning the woman about the party’s host. You made a real difference. Maybe a HUGE difference. Thank you.

    What if you had said something *to* the host? What if you had said something that everyone could hear, including “the guys”? Would that have made no difference at all?]

    • I did. But the comment to the host made no difference, mainly because my one voice was clearly overwhelmed by the gaggle of support for his endeavor he was getting from the others. And since the next choice would have been to start a fight, i felt warning the gal was the best option.

      And don’t thank me – thank my parents for raising me right.

      [Response: Good for you. Don’t be too sure that your voice made no difference.

      Thanks very much to your parents. I hope you’ll understand if I still think much of the credit goes to you.]

  33. Tamino, I have to wonder if you started out with “If you’re a man, be ashamed” just to get the predictable negative responses so you would get an excuse to reinforce your opinion that men are pigs. [Response: No, I said it because what I have read made me feel ashamed, for no other reason than my gender has let this happen.] Collective guilt certainly isn’t a constructive way of getting support. If I should be ashamed just for being a man, no matter what I do, why bother doing anything? Other oppressed groups try the same thing now and then: if you’re white you should be ashamed because of racism, if you are straight you should be ashamed attacks on LGBT people. If you happen to be a white, straight man you can just go hang yourself directly, because all the ills of the world are your fault.

    It’s not that I doubt this is a serious problem, there just are more positive ways of trying to convince people. Point out the problem, give examples, suggest things you should or shouldn’t do, but let people decide for themselves if they should be ashamed (or let people who meet them point out when they do something stupid).

    [Response: Of course “it’s every man’s fault” is hyperbole — but nowhere near so extreme as you might imagine, according to the women I’ve listened to. The fact remains that we’re running the show — including you and me — and we let this happen. I’m not talking about the killings in California, I’m talking about what Webster had to say.

    What disappoints me is that so many men can’t let the least hint of “guilt by association” pass without standing up for their innocence. God forbid you should be called complicit, so be sure to tell me how wrong I am and how destructive my attitude is, because that’s what’s really important here! Boo-hoo.

    How about this: any man who feels it’s more important to declare his umbradge at “guilt by association” than it is to proclaim his outrage at how women are treated — or at least shut the hell up and start listening to THEM — is part of the problem. Does that include you?]

    • Thank you for listening, to those of you that are doing so. To the “collective guilt” umbrage, I say this: Please try to see it from the female point of view. Of COURSE, in the midst of our defensive tactics we know that #NotAllMen are animals, unbalanced enough to become physical without permission or provocation. We would never date or marry otherwise. The problem lies in telling them apart. So, until we are safe from AllMen, we are safe from none. I saw a Twitter that puts it far more succinctly than my own words could ever attempt to do. “You have a bowl of M&M’s. 10% are poisoned. Go ahead. Grab a few. Because not all M&M’s are poison.”

      I will only add that the last line from the author is a strong stance. One that will make me feel much safer in this world when it catches on. And it will, because more and more men are outraged and refusing to sit still about it. They are not words I would ever have the right or courage to use on my own, but since he said them, I can express my deep, heartfelt and overwhelming gratitude for them:

      “Any man who feels it’s more important to declare his umbradge at “guilt by association” than it is to proclaim his outrage at how women are treated — or at least shut the hell up and start listening to THEM — is part of the problem.”

      Wow. Thank you for that.

    • How about this: any man who feels it’s more important to declare his umbradge at “guilt by association” than it is to proclaim his outrage at how women are treated — or at least shut the hell up and start listening to THEM — is part of the problem. Does that include you?

      You are a zealot on this issue, and like all zealots you have no concern what you say, who you insult, what you claim about others you don’t know, or how rude you are — you and your opinion are the only thing that matters, because you are right and no other viewpoints can be tolerated.

      In this post and in your comments, you have thus managed to spoil the cause you purport to be so concerned about. No small feat.

      [Response: Clearly, it includes you.]

      • You keep using that word “zealot”.

        I do not think it means what you think it means.

      • Bella Green

        He hasn’t spoiled it for me, David, or any of the other women who are doubtless reading this post and the comments. Just you, apparently. Which tells us a lot about you, doesn’t it?

        You know, even confronting you verbally kinda makes me sick to my stomach. I can’t imagine how scary you would be in person. And if you don’t understand that, then you really are beyond help.

  34. Leaving my last name off to protect my wife. First, guilty as charged. My wife recently was filling up her truck when a man approached her and asked if she would give him a ride back to his truck on the interstate, as it was out of gas. She asked where his gas can was, and he asked her to buy him one. She felt creep-ed out and drove out of the scenario, without getting fuel herself.

    I told her I thought he was probably innocent. My wife was not happy with me response and rightfully so. After reading Tamino’s post it made me realize what a toad (sorry toad) I had been, and I apologized profusely and promised to be more understanding.

    Now I am about to get uglier. I learned after several years of marriage during one lovemaking episode with my wife that being aggressive, in the most playful of manners was a definite no-no.After the tears subsided, I learned my wife had been raped as a 15-year-old, by her then history teacher. She didn’t report it because he was the good-looking, popular teacher. Her one friend she confided in responded with “you’re lucky he chose you!” Now 20 more years later I still fight that asshole – not physically, but with my wife’s raw emotions. To this day I have never violated her request for being gentle, nor will I. Many times I have told off men who were rough with women, once even calling in a nearby policeman. But that isn’t enough. I have failed to look at the one woman to whom I am closest and offer the support to her and commend her for standing up for herself, and for that, I am ashamed.

    I am a significant financial supporter of our local women’s shelter. Men, if you think many woman haven’t either been through abuses or fear going through abuse, you are living in a complete fantasy world.

    Tamino, thanks for the slap to the face…to paraphrase an old commercial…”I needed that.”

  35. “for no other reason than my gender has let this happen”

    No, “gender” doesn’t do anything. Individuals do. Spare your outrage for the people you meet and hear about who you know have done something bad, there’s enough of those.

    “What disappoints me is that so many men can’t let the least hint of “guilt by association” pass without standing up for their innocence. ”

    Whatever happened to good old “innocent until proven guilty”? And if we are talking about collective guilt, what about all the women who help making misogyny possible? Women can be just as bad at declaring other women “sluts” and claim they have themselves to blame for whatever happens if they dress wrong, sleep with the wrong guy etc. Let’s just all be ashamed of being human… (I bet you’ll get a good rant out of misrepresenting that part).

    “The fact remains that we’re running the show ”

    No “we” are not. There may be considerably more men than women in positions of power, but that doesn’t mean that all men are running the show.

    “God forbid you should be called complicit, so be sure to tell me how wrong I am and how destructive my attitude is, because that’s what’s really important here! ”

    If you just want to vent your frustration go ahead, but if you want to change people’s attitude then your own attitude is important.

    What I think we need isn’t a “all women are afraid” movement but “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!” Blacks didn’t defeat (well, partially at least) racism in USA by white men proclaiming how ashamed they were. They won by refusing to accept segregation, breaking written and unwritten laws, by refusing to be afraid. Support from decent men will help, but not if you tell them they should be ashamed just for being men.

    Here a group like “YesAllWomen may help organize resistance. One woman complaining about sexists jokes will be dismissed as a prude, but if *all* women do it it’s harder to dismiss. Go Lysistrate on men who don’t behave!

    [Response: Women live constantly with the threat of assault by men — so it’s *their* responsibility to change things?

    Why is it so important to you that none of the responsibility is laid at your feet? I stand by my statement: any man who feels it’s more important to declare his umbrage at “guilt by association” than it is to proclaim his outrage at how women are treated — or at least shut the hell up and start listening to THEM — is part of the problem.]

    • Women live constantly with the threat of assault by men

      Another ridiculous generalization. Maybe some women do. Hardly all of them, as you repeatedly imply. Many do not walk around in a constant state of feeling threatened — they are, instead, prudent, cautious, situationally aware, as everyone needs to be.

      You have a very poor image of women. I wonder how many resent it.

      [Response: I didn’t think you could say anything stupider than you’ve already said, but I was wrong about that.]

      • You seem to confuse ‘cowering in fear’ with ‘living with fear.’ Of course most women manage the latter, often with grace and what appears from the outside to be ease.

        That doesn’t mean that it isn’t tiresome, inconvenient, limiting, and exhausting. I think the first-person testimony of the hashtag campaign speaks to that quite clearly. (And it’s consistent, as I mentioned above, with numerous conversations and/or observations I’ve had over the years.)

        It doesn’t mean that it’s fair, either–and it quite self-evidently isn’t. Willy-nilly, guys are the beneficiaries of the asymmetry. Sure, it behooves all of us to be ‘situationally aware’–yet the number and scope of situations of which I have need to heed are both much lesser than if I were a woman, as Deech said above:

        https://tamino.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/yesallwomen/#comment-86570

    • “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more” is precisely what you’re getting, but asshats like you and Appell insist on demanding that women be less mad instead of actually listening.

  36. Guys, you’re not getting this. We as men are responsible. Until we make the crime of rape–hell, even the thought of rape–so abhorrent that even a “stud”, then we will reap the bitter fruit of our culture: Women will cower a little in our presence. They will flinch a little bit when our car happens to be near theirs in the parking lot. Our daughters, mothers–even our grandmothers will be at risk. More than 50% of humanity will live in fear of us, just because we are men they don’t know…or even men they do. This isn’t a matter of who is at fault. It’s a matter of who has to fix it. Silence is the ultimate enemy, but even speaking softly is not enough. We have to fully understand and make our fellow men understand: Coerced consent is not consent. Reluctant consent is not consent. If we don’t have enthusiastic consent, we don’t have consent. “No” means no. “I’d rather not” means no. Everything means no but an enthusiastic yes.

    The guilt is collective precisely because we are social animals.

    • Your demonstrated, repeated misogyny against Judith Curry — insults based on her being nothing but an older women — completely undercuts any message you think you have.

      Actions speak louder than words.

      [Response: You have said so many things that assure all women (yes all) that you are hopelessly part of the problem, your wrongness is so exposed for all to see, that you have now resorted to falsely accusing snarkrates of misogyny.

      I thought of calling you “pathetic,” but you do not inspire pathos. You reek of desperation. Maybe it’s because you keep insisting you are utterly blameless, but the more you say, the more women readers don’t believe you.]

      • David, are you really that stupid? I have no respect for Judy because she’s a crappy scientist and I value science as essential if we are to survive as a species.. I have no respect for you because you fail as a human being. Fundamentally, you are a coward. Your fear prevents you from even seeing your privilege or its consequences. I am not surprised that the unfortunate women in your life opt not to confide in you.

        I’ve got my privileged, misogynist asshole card out David. You’ve already filled in half the squares.

      • David: Stop digging.

    • Bella Green

      Wow – this is the best expression of the solution that I’ve read here or anywhere, really, Can I quote you? Just – wow.

  37. The Australians were SO astonished when I went ballistic on them- working in South Australia a quarter century ago, and a remark made towards a woman who was working with us set me off. Working across other countries and cultures, one understands faster, because in the differences there is also a signal. A mirror in which one sees ones own actions. This change is far too slow in coming, the best we can accomplish in most cases is the condescending paternalism of “chivalry” which helps control the damage, but does little to remove the cause.

    Know thyself. Difficult advice for anyone.

  38. There are some positive male stereotypes that bear remembering. Strength, reliability, sacrifice, honour, chivalry, protectiveness, shouldering burdens that are not our own, fealty, generosity, making up the classic hero stereotype. Each to their degree in a modern context, these values are worth aspiring to.

    I am priviliged, lucky to be what I am in this world. White, male, heterosexual, unburdened by intellectual or physical handicap, tall, and from a middle-class background. In my society, I do not have to endure racism, mysogyny, homophobia or other prejudices aimed at minority groups. I am well-favoured by accident of heredity and circumstance.

    I am aware of my advantage. I do not take it for granted, and am happy to pay a ‘debt’ for that good fortune by looking out for others who are not as lucky as me. I do not live in a vacuum. I live in a society and I want to be a useful participant in it, to make it better for all, because I’ve worked out that the general good is also good for me and mine. It is a constant work in progress.

    If, as some argue, we are ultimately self-interested, even our altruism, which may simply be the self-gratification of demonstrating virtue for the approval of others and/or to shore up a sense of self-worth, then so be it. Whether rooted in self-interest or not, my choices, my notion of who I am and what I will stand up for still have an impact on society, little or large.

    Taking responsibility for my gender, accepting that I am either part of the problem or part of the solution regarding male/female relationships, shores up my sense of self-worth, wins the approval of people whose opinion I care about, and also makes a worthwhile difference. Unless one (falsely) sees one’s identity in a vacuum, the latter is hugely important. Taking my advantages for granted, and not paying back for my good fortune just seems to me to be self-centred with no redeeming qualities. Being the change I hope for isn’t enough. I am a social animal. We all are. That understanding can co-exist with valuing personal liberty. It seems to me that those protesting they are not willing or obliged to take responsibility are simply unaware or disinterested in the social contract endemic to all our lives, and that those who argue brilliantly for such an attitude have a ruthlessly enlightened self-interest.

    So, come on you guys, get on the front foot about this. You may be a complete angel. Be manly, too, and accept this responsibility. It’s a reasonable burden for the good fortune genetics granted you. Don’t get self-righteous. Don’t complain. Man up in the best possible way. If you are doing the rght thing, then you have nothing to prove and nothing to protest. Go that one step further on this and make the society you believe is best. For your mother, your sisters, your aunts and nieces, your daughters, your female friends, and for all women. And charge them to stand up for themselves, too, to be wise and strong, to leave that assehole the first time he lashed out, to coach the men close to them if they need it, and to praise them when they step up. Because we are all in this together.

  39. The problem isn’t that all men are rapists, the problem is that about 5% of men are rapists and too many of the other 95% are covering for them. Also there is the additional ~10% of creeps/rapist-wannabes who do the groping and catcalling and harassment. If we (the 85%) stepped down hard on the SOBs we could end this problem.

    Ps if you look at the comments, you will see the percentages.

    http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf

  40. So, David Appell, are you friends with Joe the Plumber?

  41. While I agree 100% that more men need to speak up against this crap rather than stand by and watch it happen, I must also say that I am uncomfortable with the “we’re all responsible” line. Intent matters. You do not become guilty by being part of a group. Not all Germans persecuted Jews, and some died fighting what was happening to the Jews. Not all white people owned slaves, and some gave their lives fighting for Abolition. Not all guys harass women or are silent about it when others do, and some have died defending women from attack. That does NOT mean I think the “all men” remark is MORE IMPORTANT than the mistreatment of women–just that it’s still incorrect.

    Prejudice and bigotry are rooted in a logical fallacy–the fallacy of composition. It doesn’t become less fallacious when applied to a “privileged” group. People need to be treated first as individuals, not as male/female, black/white/yellow/red/brown, straight/gay/bi, or whatever. That’s the key.

    [Response:I have great respect for you. And in case other readers missed it, I will point out that *before* you objected to “collective guilt,” you mentioned that you were a women’s-rights lobbyist back in the day.

    I also agree that you do not become guilty by virtue of membership in a group. But the fraction of men who are blameless in this regard seems to me to be so small (and I don’t think I am blameless, although you might be) that I think we need to acknowledge that we *as a gender* are remiss. The problem is *our* fault. That goes not just for the abusers, but for those of us who haven’t done nearly enough about it — which seems to me to include almost all men. Including me.

    Of course not all antebellum white southerners were slave owners. Some even dedicated their lives (or much of it) to ending that abomination. But for every John Brown or Abraham Lincoln, there were a thousand slave owners and their overseers, and a million white southerners who simply *accepted* it as the way life was — and would continue to be. So when black people express anger at *white people* (without adding “except all you good guys”), I understand their anger at least in part, and some white guy saying “I never did that” seems rather shallow and self-serving. So #NotAllWhitePeople, but #YesAllBlackPeople.

    I hoped that by laying the blame at our collective feet, those of us who haven’t done enough (which is almost all of us) would see that the present state of affairs is the consequence of our actions (and inactions), and that feeling guilty would spur a change. I also hoped that the men who are truly blameless (there are many more than just Jimmy Carter) would be secure enough about their standing that they wouldn’t need to object.

    There’s a time and place to insist on your innocence, this isn’t it. This is the time to talk about how we can all help change the situation. I confess I’m disappointed that there’s been so much focus on denying collective guilt and not nearly enough how to bring about about real change.

    I’ll end by saying that I have the utmost respect for you,, and that we can disagree without changing that.]

    • “Prejudice and bigotry are rooted in a logical fallacy–the fallacy of composition. It doesn’t become less fallacious when applied to a “privileged” group. People need to be treated first as individuals, not as male/female, black/white/yellow/red/brown, straight/gay/bi, or whatever. That’s the key.”

      I think that paragraph cuts to the heart of a lot of this. Individuals who inherently belong to a socially-persistent group don’t really get to opt out. That is, their identity as part of a collective is not pragmatically within their control–though of course they can choose to accept it, deny it, struggle with it, or transcend it internally. But do what they will, they will still, often enough, find themselves treated not as an individual, but as Old White Guy, Scary Black Dude, Asian Nerd–or Slutty Chick.

      Prejudice is a vice for many reasons. One of them is that it is intellectually extremely lazy. But I think it can help those prone to such laziness if society were to make it difficult to forget that disrespect for *any* person is evokes a negative consequence–such as being called out as a jerk, to name but the mildest.

      It’s unfortunate that there’s an apparent need to emphasize that the set of “all persons” emphatically includes *all women*. But Tamino is contributing to that emphasis, as is this whole hashtag campaign.

  42. There’s an old saying, “Don’t judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in their moccasins”. For better or worse, I’d guess that 90% or more of the men posting here can’t do that when it comes to women. I can, and do.

    As an accomplished crossdresser/transvestite (use whatever term you want, but leave the baggage you’ve got associated with it behind), someone who has in no small part the life of the person I might might have been had I been born female, I can from personal experience say that everything women say about their experience, short of rape, is true. The fear, the watchfulness, the invisibility, the objectification are all too obvious if only by contrast.

    That’s the starting point. Understanding and accepting that truth. Then you can talk about what you do about it.

    [Response: Thank you.]

  43. Martin Smith

    “I confess I’m disappointed that there’s been so much focus on denying collective guilt and not nearly enough how to bring about about real change.”

    I think the focus on collective guilt is the expected denial response. Because, of course it isn’t true that 100% of men are guilty, so focus on that instead of accepting responsibility to become active. We see the same kind of focus in AGW denial: First, take a statement that has a clear meaning in the context where it is used, then make that statement absolute and focus on the fact that it is not absolutely true.

    Now you’re on your heels defending collective guilt instead of talking about what passive men should do to become active.

  44. We’re all responsible.
    Men who assert their belief that they are not responsible
    are part of the problem we’re responsible to address.

    I grew up before integration — attended the only integrated (Catholic) school in that part of the state. The neighborhood kids around me grew up in segregation — segregated neighborhoods, segregated public school, segregated churches, segregated Boy Scout troops. And they literally did not see it. Fish blind to water. The nuns teaching us had quite a challenge seeing and trying to teach against that environment.

    That church used to go out and march — on the sidewalk, in front of the church against the KKK when the police closed the street, when it was reserved for the KKK’s annual march downtown.

    And this was ‘mild’ segregation. My parents grew up deeper in the South, early in the 1900s, when it was far more lethal for far more people.

    It took going off to college for me to begin to see sexism — because I grew up so surrounded by it that I was blind to it — like those kids around me had been.

    I carry this with me and question myself every time I meet someone who looks like me — or doesn’t — because I know I don’t see the world straight. I have to work at it.

    If you’re sure you’re not part of the problem, well bless your heart.
    Maybe you’re right.
    Ask yourself, though — are you so sure?

    Keep asking.

    • HR: We’re all responsible.
      Men who assert their belief that they are not responsible
      are part of the problem we’re responsible to address.

      BPL: Aren’t you making it impossible to falsify? You line of argument seems to be that if I deny your statement, it proves that all men are responsible. But if I agree, since that was the original statement, it again leads to the conclusion that all men are responsible. Is there any possible evidence that could change your mind?

      If your point is that we all share unconscious sexist attitudes implanted with our culture, you may be right. But how would you test it? Are there varying degrees?

      Understand, I COMPLETELY accept what I take to be tamino’s main point–that men have to speak up more, hopefully to the point of changing the atmosphere that permits abuse of women. My quarrel is simply with the phrasing, which I think is unnecessarily confrontational. We don’t want to turn off potential supporters.

      This debate isn’t new to me. We had it in the 1970s, when Susan Brownmiller’s book was published. (Google it if you don’t know it.) I think Brownmiller’s study was excellent–I dedicated one of my own books to her on that basis. But I think her phrasing, “the atmosphere by which all men initimidate all women” (or words to that effect) were counterproductive. I think what she may have meant was “men as a group,” which is not quite the same thing as “all men.” Do you see my point?

      [Response: I see your point. But I don’t agree with it. From what I can tell, neither do women.

      You’re certainty entitled to argue that Brownmiller’s approach was counterproductive and that mine is too. There’s even a time and place for that. This isn’t it. I submit that even if you’re right your choice to emphasize this point at this particular moment is more counterproductive than my rhetorical excesses. It’s not personal, and I acknowledge I could be wrong.

      Let it go. And in a blatantly sexist move, for the time being, for men this topic is taboo but if women want to express an opinion about it then I’m listening.

      I’m not letting go of the gender issue, you can expect regular posts about it in the future, and a lively discussion of the best approach rhetorically sounds like a worthwhile topic. I certainly want to know the best approach, and if I am wrong I really do want you to persuade me so. But it will have to wait. It won’t have to wait long.]

      • Anybody who can be “turned off” the idea that women are people and should be treated as such wasn’t much of a supporter in the first place.

        And this is not a new discussion. There were straight allies who told people in the gay rights movement that their approach was counterproductive. There were white moderates who said the same to civil rights leaders. MLK Jr had some interesting things to say about them:

        …I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

        People who grant only lukewarm acceptance to the idea that the human rights of others are important, but who will turn away if they are personally offended, are part of the problem. Asking people who are being hurt, and abused, and mistreated to speak softly, to coddle such people is not the solution. The solution is to ask those people to stop being part of the problem.

        If you personally want to take a more concilliatory approach, then great! There’s room for that. But people who are struggling for something as fundamental as recognition of their basic humanity don’t need to be told to moderate their anger so as to appease those to whom that humanity is apparently conditional.

        [Response: I was going to delete your comment as too close to the forbidden topic. But this is too well said for me not to let it through. To those who wish to accuse me of hypocrisy I’ll quote Walt Whitman: “Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself.”]

  45. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dispatches/2014/05/i_could_have_been_elliot_rodger_young_frustrated_and_full_of_rage_toward.html
    I Could Have Been Elliot Rodger
    Many men—including me, once upon a time—know what it’s like to be young, frustrated, and full of rage toward women.
    By Brian Levinson

  46. Susan Anderson

    It’s interesting, but I had buried so far into my past my fears and experiences that I had forgotten them. You are right, every woman has experienced it and it is common.

    As for Judith Curry, she makes the problem worse by exploiting it. No doubt she has honestly experienced harassment, fear, and exploitation, since we all have. But her choice has been to use that to hide her avoidance of real scientific questions.

  47. [edit]

    [Response: Buckley and Chomsky is a potent combination, so the video is worth watching. But if I forbid men to post about “collective guilt” on this thread, I have to forbid advocates as well as opponents.]

  48. Lawrence McLean

    The US seems to have a particularly high tolerance of cruelty in all of its forms, live pigeon shooting in Pennsylvania for example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKZWfpjqeKA). It seems connected to the subject of this post to me, for those that think it is off topic.

  49. Jason Calley

    Abuse of women is an important subject that needs to be discussed and acted on — but you are not the one to initiate the discussion. You are a man. You are an abuser of women. You are a rapist. You have no ethical right to set the terms or the standards of resolving this issue. You need to stay out of it unless a woman asks your opinion.

    Having a man (you!) make a posting on this subject is like having a murderer address a letter to the family of his victim, a letter seeking to have a chat on the subject of how murders act.

    Have some humility.

    [Response: It’s interesting, “Jason,” that as far as I can tell every WOMAN who has commented here has thanked me for posting about this. They’re talking. You’re not listening.]

    • Bella Green

      Jason, if you had read through the comment thread you would note several comments by women who very much support and appreciate what Tamino is doing with this post.

  50. I’m with Susan Rosenthal:

    “The only effective solution to ending violence against women is for working-class women and men to unite against a capitalist system that immerses our lives in violence.”

    http://susanrosenthal.com/articles/misogynist-violence

    [Response: I’m allowing you to post your viewpoint and your link. But I’m not going to let the discussion turn to capitalism.]

  51. One tidbit that I found interesting upon moving to Montreal: women have mentioned they feel safe walking around at night. That differs from various US cities I’ve lived in — in the best, men could walk at night without issue, but women always wanted to travel in groups for safety; in the worst, men were worried of being mugged and killed, while women were worried of being mugged, raped, and killed.

    Nothing else is substantially different: women here are cautious about their drink at a large party just like they were in the US, they get harassed by their bosses and profs, and all that depressing stuff. And at a party the other night a friend tried to argue not-all-men (the discussion here helped me steer that discussion somewhere more productive — he was receptive).

  52. [Response: I’m allowing you to post your viewpoint and your link. But I’m not going to let the discussion turn to capitalism.]

    As a matter of interest, do you have a blanket ban on discussion of capitalism in relation to AGW?

    [Response: I let some viewpoints through, especially those I consider valid, and I welcome intelligent discussion of practical choices regarding economics, but basically yes, I don’t let AGW discussions wander off into the ethics of capitalism. I consider it a valid issue, but this is not the place.]

    In any case, thanks for nudging me to consider this particular issue in the depth it deserves, and for the excellent work that you do in your area of expertise.

  53. Let me be Anonomous

    As a young male I was considered safe by my female peers. So safe that I actually had a group of highschool girls take me along on their all-girl weekend camping trip to serve as protection. My father had drilled into me a moral obligation to respect women. Regarding “porn”, his response would be “those aren’t real women”.

    My first marriage failed after trying to make things work for more than 10 years. No kids. I didn’t fully comprehend how deep the issues were until after the divorce papers were filed. She could never talk about it with me, but I now believe her family had questionable morals to begin with, and I’m pretty sure she had been abused by a relative when young only to have it swept under the rug. I don’t think she has ever known what a healthy relationship should be like. She re-married 6 months later (law required a 6 month span) while I took several years off to recover. I suspect her of using marriage to any man she trusts as a shelter for hiding from the real world.

    My second marriage is going strong with a great set of kids, but she speaks to me of having been abused. She is a strong willed intelligent person who fights back. Even so once we had kids our love life became non-existent. I’m old enough now that I can survive without that aspect of a relationship. I’m way better off than I was in my first marriage, so I count my blessings.

    In some ways I feel cheated… ripped off… I feel I was morally superior to other males as a youth. But what was my payback? By the time I got around to having loving relationships that could move past 1st base, the only takers I found were damaged goods? Why?

    Boys need strong fathers like the father I had…. like I am trying to be.

    • Let me be Anonomous

      As I think more deeply on this subject, I have to say that I too am part of the problem. I stole kisses from girls that did not want to be kissed — which made them fearful of my intentions. I also wonder how many of my love making sessions with my first wife might have been no better than rape from her perspective. She may have believed it was her duty to submit, and that it was not her place to speak up. I’m totally disgusted with myself when I consider this possibility….
      Humans are not the only species where the male will sometimes go so far as to kill the female for the sake of self gratification. Only our intelligence can rise us out of the muck.

  54. We need to proactively teach our son’s at a young age the do’s and don’ts. Some states already have laws in place that can send a boy to prison for 7 years and categorized them as a sex offender for life for having drunk sex with an unwilling partner (this is the case in my state of Oregon.) Yes, it is a CRIME and I agree that it should be treated as such. The sad aspect however is the alcohol component which makes one temporarily stupid and more willing to ignore ones own moral upbringings. So alcohol must be part of this discussion as well.

    However the privileged (star athletes) need to be treated the same way, but they aren’t. This hypocrisy in our society is an enormous black eye for men.

    http://time.com/topic/campus-sexual-assault/

  55. One thing that strikes me, as a Irish person living in Japan, is that these hashtag wars take issues that are large in the US, and assume that they are the same across the world. Your easy access to guns, and emphasis on personal achievement gives those that see themselves as aggrieved losers easy opportunities to cause mass mayhem. In Japan this form of mass attack is rare, and in Ireland too. Of course, both countries have incidents of mass violence, but with different triggers.

    On the subject of abuse, in Ireland there is the sordid history of state-sanctioned abuse from the Catholic Church – but interestingly the key supporters of the Church are women. My mother to this day cannot believe the things done by the Church through the years, even despite the fact that I suffered a year-long episode of physical and mental abuse at the hands of a member of a religious order. The two issues are neatly segmented in her mind.

    In Ireland at least, a similar hashtag war might have a #NotAllWomen demographic.

  56. Am in full agreement with this post

  57. I’m a bit late with this one, and I agree with everything in the post and in all of the comments responding to the not-me-not-all-men comments.

    For as long as we encourage our daughters to carry their carkeys in a fist, to text each other about going out and arriving home safely, to guard their drinks, and to walk, run or park their cars only in well-lit areas, we’re acknowledging that they’re in danger when going about their ordinary lives – working, shopping, socialising. We and they don’t quiver helplessly in fear, we adopt habits and practices that make those fears more manageable. I talk very little about my first abusive marriage, but I distinctly remember the day my near adult daughters were talking about boyfriends and possible future marriages. They insisted that if I saw any “tells” or had doubts about any boyfriends that I should say so.

    I was a bit reluctant because I saw myself as hyper-vigilant about men’s possible violence or other abusive behaviours and attitudes. It took my daughters pointing out that these problems were not individual or special to me, but common problems that all women needed to keep aware of. So it’s not just men that have to rethink the idea that these issues are simply solved by treating them as individual and exceptional. It really is the “only 10% of the M&Ms are poisoned” problem. Anyone and everyone who can help reduce the percentage itself or warn potential victims about the most likely dangers should do their part.

    And it really is everyone’s issue to deal with in every small and large way they can. “The standard you walk past is the standard you accept” applies not just to the Australian Army but to all of us everywhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U (Please, please, may all the planets align to ensure this damn thing doesn’t embed.)