Open Mind

The Big Thaw

June 12, 2008 · 182 Comments

The blogosphere is buzzing with discussion of new research soon to be published in Geophysical Research Letters, Accelerated Arctic land warming and permafrost degradation during rapid sea ice loss (Lawrence et al. 2008, GRL, in press, scheduled for publication tomorrow), a collaboration between researchers from NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research) and NSIDC (National Snow and Ice Data Center). Their research indicates that, in large part due to the rapid reduction of summer sea ice in the arctic, land areas in the far north will warm much faster than the rest of the globe. This would lead to rapid melting of permafrost, which in turn could release massive stores of CO2 trapped in the permafrost.


Last summer witnessed a truly stunning reduction of arctic sea ice:

The ice loss was due to a combination of two factors. First, the arctic is indeed warming faster than the rest of the planet. Second, prevailing wind patterns shifted so that polar ice (which is floating on the arctic ocean) drifted to lower latitudes, making it even more vulnerable to melting. The result was a reduction in arctic sea ice for which the adjective “stunning” is actually rather mild.

The latest monthly sea ice extent data from NSIDC shows that arctic sea ice recovered this winter, and as of May 2008 was above last year’s levels:

However, the most recent daily observations indicate a reduction in late May/early June, so that at present sea ice extent is slightly below last year’s level:

Whether or not this summer’s ice loss will approach or exceed last year’s record-breaking values is an open question. On one hand, the Arctic has indeed been warming faster than the rest of the globe, and a lot of multi-year ice was lost last year, so that far more of this year’s polar ice cap is 1st-year ice, which is much thinner and more vulnerable to melting than multi-year ice; these factors would indicate that we may indeed break the record again. On the other hand, we may not see the same wind patterns as last year, so the ice pack may not be blown about like it was; this indicates that we may not break the record this year. Only time will tell.

But the new research isn’t concerned with single exceptional years as much as it is with the coming decades, and this is presaged by the long-term trend. Then trend has been inexorably downward, and the loss of Arctic sea ice accelerated about mid-2001:

From late 1978 (the beginning of satellite observations) until 2001.4, Arctic sea ice extent declined at a rate of about 37,000 km^2/yr, but from 2001.4 to the present it’s been declining far more rapidly, at a rate of 131,000 km^2/yr. The rapid loss of Arctic sea ice, especially during summer and autumn, can be expected to continue. And it’s this loss of Arctic summer/autumn sea ice that is at the root of forecasts for dramatically rapid warming of north polar land areas, and the consequent rapid melting of permafrost areas.

The research uses the CCSM3 climate model to study both the progress of sea ice change and the changes in Arctic climate. Almost all model runs show a “Rapid sea Ice Loss Event” (RILE) during which sea ice declines dramatically for a 5-10 year period. When sea ice declines, not only does the open water absorb more incoming solar energy (albedo change), but the open water can exchange heat between the warmer ocean and the colder air, dumping lots of heat in the Arctic region. This warms the Arctic land climate dramatically, both air and ground temperature rising, and the rising ground temperature leads to rapid degradation of permafrost. This is summed up in the abstract:


Coupled climate models and recent observational evidence suggest that Arctic sea ice may undergo abrupt periods of loss within fifty years. Here, we evaluate the impact of rapid sea ice loss on terrestrial Arctic climate and ground thermal state in the Community Climate System Model. We find that western Arctic land warming trends during rapid sea ice loss are 3.5 times greater than secular 21st century climate-change trends outside these periods. The accelerated warming signal extends up to 1500km inland and is apparent throughout most of the year, peaking in autumn. Idealized experiments using the Community Land Model, with improved permafrost dynamics, indicate that an accelerated warming period substantially increases ground heat accumulation – the earlier the event the greater the long-term impact. For warm permafrost, enhanced heat accumulation can lead to rapid degradation. For colder ground, heat accumulation preconditions permafrost for earlier and/or more rapid degradation under continued warming.

The Arctic is already warming twice as fast as the rest of the globe, but this is greatly amplified during RILE events. Here’s the simulated change in September Arctic sea ice extent, and October-December Arctic surface air temperature, during a typical RILE (the solid line shows sea ice extent, the dashed line surface air temperature)

The additional warming due to sea ice loss is greatest in exactly the regions where permafrost exists presently:

According to the study, “We find that the secular 21st century land warming trend is augmented by a factor of 3.5 during RILEs, which is likely to have adverse impacts on permafrost.” In fact they conclude that permafrost is greatly affected, “may trigger rapid degradation of currently warm permafrost and precondition colder permafrost for subsequent degradation under continued warming. This sea ice loss – land warming relationship may be immediately relevant given the record low sea ice extent in 2007.”.

To test whether the rapid Arctic warming events are truly the result of sea ice loss, the authors compared Arctic climate from model runs in which climate forcing factors were held constant except for the extent of Arctic sea ice:

Clearly the loss of sea ice, with its consequent albedo decrease and release of ocean heat to the atmosphere, has a profound impact on temperature changes in the Arctic.

Why should we care about the melting of Arctic permafrost? When permafrost soil melts, it releases frozen water which can discharge fresh water into the oceans. It also destabilized the ground, with important impacts on infrastructure in populated Arctic areas. And of course, the changes in temperature, solidity of the ground, and the water cycle cause significant changes for Arctic ecosystem.

But an even more dramatic consequence of permafrost melting may be in store for the next generation — or even for our generation. Permafrost soil holds about 200 to 800 Gt (gigatonne) of carbon, and its melting can release this frozen carbon store to the atmosphere. The carbon can be released as CO2, or with anaerobic bacterial processes it can be transformed to methane (an even more potent greenhouse gas). Considering that the entire atmosphere presently has about 770 Gt carbon (almost entirely CO2), the amount of additional carbon in permafrost is enough to double earth’s atmospheric carbon load. In fact it has been estimated that rapidly melting permafrost could add 1 to 4 Gt carbon release per year, as much as half the present emissions from human activity — a substantial increase in carbon emissions and a very unpleasant feedback on an already stressed global climate system.

The atmospheric release of a massive store of sequestered carbon is one possible hitherto-unanticipated feedback in the climate system, one which may quite literally be disastrous, not just for the Arctic but for the entire planet; CO2 is a well-mixed atmospheric gas and the extra CO2 from permafrost loss will reach to all corners of the globe. We simply can’t afford an extra 4 Gt/yr carbon emissions which will sustain long enough to double the atmospheric CO2 load. It’s an example of how our present actions may lead to unanticipated and very unpleasant consequences. It also emphasizes the importance of drastic reductions in human greenhouse-gas emissions now, not later. If we can eliminate our own climate-changing activities, we can delay and/or reduce, or possibly even avoid, a very nasty feedback in the carbon cycle due to permafrost. If we continue to drag our feet, sacrificing the long-term good for short-term comfort, we may well be headed for a future which is far worse than even the most dire predictions of the doomsayers.

Categories: Global Warming

182 responses so far ↓

  • Hank Roberts // June 12, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    I’d change “hitherto unanticipated” to “long anticipated” per the record. Hitherto unmodeled, perhaps.

    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1051-0761(199105)1%3A2%3C182%3ANPRITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-X

    Cassandra.

  • B Buckner // June 12, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    Tamino,

    You say:
    “When sea ice declines, not only does the open water absorb more incoming solar energy (albedo change), but the open water can exchange heat between the warmer ocean and the colder air, dumping lots of heat in the Arctic region.”

    Two points. First, when the sun is at its highest in June, almost the entire Arctic Ocean is covered with ice, even last year, so no decrease in albedo at that time. When the ice extent bottoms out in September, the sun barely rises above the horizon, so no decrease in albedo at that time either.

    Second, the open water will heat the atmosphere somewhat, but much of the heat will be lost to space thereby providing an overall cooling effect on the planet.

    [Response: Since satellite observations began, average sea ice extent anomaly has declined by about 1.5 million km^2. That's a lot of area converted from ice to open water -- a significant change in albedo. My guess is that the loss of heat by additional radiative cooling is far outweighed by the gain of heat by albedo reduction.]

  • Hank Roberts // June 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    Sorry, try this link, the above breaks:
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/1941811 works

    * Northern Peatlands: Role in the Carbon Cycle and Probable Responses to Climatic Warming
    * Eville Gorham
    * Ecological Applications, Vol. 1, No. 2 (May, 1991), pp. 182-195
    Ecological Society of America

  • Sue // June 12, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    I’ve started making NSIDC (National Snow and Ice Data Center) my first Internet stop of the day to check on ice extent — its a sobering way to start the day. Thanks for the link to the new research.

  • dhogaza // June 12, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    In fact it has been estimated that rapidly melting permafrost could add 1 to 4 Gt carbon release per year, as much as half the present emissions from human activity

    And if it happens, I can just hear the denialsphere’s spin - “but 1/3 of the annual increase in CO2 is due to NATURAL causes!” …

  • Frank O'Dwyer // June 12, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    “the amount of additional carbon in permafrost is enough to double earth’s atmospheric carbon load”

    Doesn’t this assume the worst case of 800G and the entire 800G remains in the atmosphere? Wouldn’t about half be absorbed by sinks?

    Also if it is 4G per year (worst case again) then this might take 200 years…though it would accelerate due to the feedbacks I assume?

  • Gareth // June 12, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    Thanks, HB. Excellent post. I hope this paper is the first of many to examine the consequences of sea ice loss on NH climate - something I’ve been banging on about for ages. The implications go way beyond permafrost: there are also the shallow clathrates north of Russia to worry about, not to mention the huge ecosystem changes that will be forced by such rapid rates of warming.

    There’s only one part of your post I find it hard to accept: that there’s time to stop this by reducing emissions now. Given the current rate of change - and the 20-30 year climate commitment, that seems like an increasingly vain hope. We essentially have to hope that the next 30 years of warming is not sufficient to render the Arctic ice free in summer. Look’s like it’s gong to happen a lot sooner than that.

    We’re out into the unknown unknowns, and not many people have realised that yet…

  • Bob Tisdale // June 13, 2008 at 12:15 am

    Tamino: Have you posted on causes of Arctic temperature rises of similar magnitude? I can recall three:
    1. A doubling of CO2
    2. A 20% increase in solar irradiance
    3. El Ninos
    I’m sure there are other influences, but I think those are the big three.
    Was it you who discussed it, or did I pick that up somewhere else?

    [Response: It must have been somewhere else. A 20% increase in solar irradiance would be 48 W/m^2 of climate forcing -- quite impossible.]

  • Hank Roberts // June 13, 2008 at 12:52 am

    Frank,
    > Wouldn’t about half be absorbed
    > by sinks?

    If you pour a bathtub full of water into your bathtub that’s already full, would the drain magically enlarge?

    Sinks are biological and chemical processes, and we’re already adding CO2 far faster than the sinks work; they only handle half of the current fossil carbon.

    Yes, that will expose a lot of limestone and dolomite, and increasing the rate of weathering — the very slow geochemical sink will work faster. With topsoil washing away, plant growth on land will work slower. Oceans, who knows.

    Like last time. Many examples; one is:

    http://ic.ucsc.edu/~jzachos/eart120/readings/Schmitz_Puljate_07.pdf
    http://64.233.179.104/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=cache:IDqTAjQM5goJ:ic.ucsc.edu/~jzachos/eart120/readings/Schmitz_Puljate_07.pdf+petm+Spain+Portugal+erosion
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=related:IDqTAjQM5goJ:scholar.google.com/

  • george // June 13, 2008 at 1:25 am

    There is some evidence that soot may be a significant contributor to arctic warming

    I believe that NASA scientist James Hansen was one of the first to propose the possible role of soot in warming.

  • Tom Woods // June 13, 2008 at 5:20 am

    I’m not expecting nearly as far a drawback in the extent and area of the sea-ice this year as last. The sea-ice drift vectors in the arctic as of late indicate that ice is being blown towards the Alaskan and western Siberian coasts as opposed to into the Greenland Sea. Most ice above 80N has shown very little drift over the last month.

    In all sea-ice should drop to a level about 300,000 sq.mi. larger in area than last season, which would still be a record low, if not for last year.

    There’s still a chance that the North Pole will be ice-free for a period being that thinner 1st year ice exists over that region and may just melt away. I’m expecting a half horse-shoe shaped area of sea-ice extending from the central Siberian coast eastwards across the high arctic to north of Greenland. The areas most susceptible to loss will be the Beaufort, Barents, Kara and Laptev seas.

    The area from 120E to the Prime Meridian on northward to 90N will see large reductions in sea-ice due to wind direction while the Beaufort Sea will have lower concentrations of sea-ice due to the large fracture that developed in the sea-ice in December and continued to appear until February. This fracture caused fast ice to break off Banks Island, The McClure Strait and The Amundsen Gulf, becoming incorporated into the Beaufort Gyre. This fracture left the fast ice that developed in the McClure Strait to thereafter not enough time to withstand the summer melt. Unless the fast ice between Baffin and Devon Islands holds this summer, the Northwest Passage will also likely has a 3-4 week ice-free period from late August to mid September.

  • Bob Tisdale // June 13, 2008 at 8:47 am

    My mistake. Slipped a zero in on the TSI. It should be 2% increase. I’ve got the notes and no source.

    Regards

    [Response: A 2% increase in TSI would still be 27.2 W/m^2 of TSI, 4.8 W/m^2 of climate forcing, and that's impossibly big. Trust me -- it didn't happen.]

  • andy // June 13, 2008 at 11:17 am

    When plotting and calculating the Greenland 10-year average temperature series, current Greenland temperature 10-y average is coming close to the values of 1930-40. What a pitty there isn’t sea ice data from that time, but as the Greenland records indicate, the Arctic temperature has had similar increases (1930 to 1940) as current one (1990 to 2005).

    I don’t have the link anymore, but Google “Greenland temperature history” and article including Briffa et al. And of course, here is brave assumption that Greenland coastal temp has something to do with Arctic sea ice extent.

  • Pete // June 13, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    “And it’s this loss of Arctic summer/autumn sea ice that is at the root of forecasts for dramatically rapid warming of north polar land areas, and the consequent rapid melting of permafrost areas.”

    I’d quite like to see how this statement works in practice using real numbers.

    There’s a nice diagram here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Day_length.jpeg showing the useful daylight hours in the Arctic. As everyone probably knows it is 24 Hours on June 21st and 0 Hours in December. The time at which the Arctic receives maximum exposure to incoming Solar Radiation in Summer it usually has full reflective capabilites anyway. By the time the Ice is at Min in Sep/Oct the useful capture area/time is already dimininishing rapidly anyway. Considering the area is <5% of the surface area of the Globe, and receives the least of all incoming Solar Radiation than anywhere else, has anyone ever calculated the numbers we are talking about here assuming two scenerios. 1) Assuming a normal Sea Ice Cover September-October, and 2) Assuming no Sea Ice at all September-October. Anyone know the values we are talking about?

  • Hank Roberts // June 13, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    Bob Tisdale, try 0.2%

    The variations in total solar irradiance (TSI) remained at or below the threshold … other sources suggest a 0.2% increase in solar irradiance since 1675. … en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation

  • steven mosher // June 13, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    dhog, all increases in C02 are natural. human are neither alien nor supernatural. We are doing what comes comes naturally.

  • dhogaza // June 13, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    dhog, all increases in C02 are natural. human are neither alien nor supernatural. We are doing what comes comes naturally.

    Oh, Lord, not another round of language quibbles. Got tired of quibbling about “natural” twenty years ago during the Old Growth wars.

    1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.

    Mosher’s definition of “natural” means that a cultured pearl is actually a natural pearl.

    2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.

    In the world according to Mosher, the inside of my house is a natural environment.

  • Bob Tisdale // June 13, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    Tamino: I agree. It hasn’t happened. It’s the input/output of GCMs.
    If the tropospheric response (amplification in the Arctic and enhancement in the tropics) to El Ninos is the same as a 2% increase in TSI, or a doubling of CO2, and since TSI and CO2 haven’t increased by those amounts in the recent past, it leads me to believe the current bout of excessive Arctic temperatures are the result of El Ninos, or something else other than CO2 or TSI.

  • Mario // June 13, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    > try 0.2%
    If it was 0.2%…
    in a “linear” world, thinking, as we should, in absolute Kelvin degrees, for a 0,2% TSI variation, we would expect …. humm …. about 0,5 Kelvin degree temperature increment.

    [Response: The relationship between TSI and temperature is most certainly not linear; it's more like quartic. It's approximatly linear for small variations, but not even approximately so over the range from 0 to 288 K or so. So your calculation is completely invalid.]

    Now, add or subtract some non linear factors (inertias, positive/negative feedbacks…) still to be properly understood (!), and it seems that we are in the right order of magnitude of the climate variations we presently see and measure…

    And - just as a reminder -in this very site, in last October we were discussing about the opposition between the “it’s just the sun” and AGW explanations…

    >Mario // October 16, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    >>So, we must all hope that the next [solar] cycle is really, really low.

    >>If it is, it will give us some real information at last.

    >>And lets all agree that this is going to be, if it works out, a critical test.

    >Admirable post, right to the point:

    >in a time in which “scientific” certainties
    > seem to some [like me] far less solidly established than
    >other like to assume them to be,

    >it woud be a true [godly] gift, if instead
    > of words and models, we could get a kind of >“crucial experiment” between the two main competing candidate theories.
    >If really next solar cycle will be very weak,
    > perhaps we will end it with some surprises, but >almost surely with a more solid
    > understanding and fewer doubts.

    Some months have elapsed, some new data has ben delivered to us ….

    What then about saying that recent temperature data give obviously a boost to “it is just the sun” forecasters ?
    (and remember than forecasting, was then “about the future”, the most precious and rare variant, in good “science”)

    I’m not saying that they have “proved” their point,
    this would fall in the well known “it’s settled” fallacy,

    ut, what however should be amply settled is that my “impression”, remarked upon in the same thread, was fully justified:

    > Now, given the large number of surprises we continue to experiment in climate
    > matters, I’m surely not alone in having the impression that a large part of what
    > is presented as a solid body of knowledge, capable of reliable predicting
    > the future climate, could be largely [an overfitting artifact].

  • David B. Benson // June 13, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    “Continuous monitoring of total solar irradiance now covers the last 28 years. The data show a well-established 11-year cycle in irradiance that varies by 0.08% from solar cycle minima to maxima, with no significant long-term trend.”

    IPCC AR$ WG1 Technical Summary, TS2.4, p. 30.

  • Hank Roberts // June 13, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/03/co2-rise-is-natural.html
    http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anatural
    Of course, you can find support for your personal opinion about the meaning of any word, if you’ll accept any source that happens to agree with yours:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Ais

  • luminous beauty // June 14, 2008 at 12:14 am

    mosh,

    Equivocation fallacies are intellectually dishonest.

  • climatewonk // June 14, 2008 at 12:20 am

    Steven Mosher, that’s disingenuous. Humanity’s burning of fossil fuels is a choice. Polluting is a choice. Using clean energy is a choice. These are not the product of biological evolution, the product of unthinking natural behavior.

    Yes, humans are natural to the planet, but our production of CO2 from fossil fuel burning is not the same as the cow belching methane gas or the release of CO2 by other “natural” residents of the planet, plant or animal. They don’t have much choice, do they?

    We do.

  • Brian Klappstein // June 14, 2008 at 3:21 am

    If rapid ice loss should lead to accelerated permafrost melting, some of the observational proxy data aren’t singing with the choir. Specifically, methane, which should be released by warming peat bogs has not increased significantly since the late 90’s.

    Regards, BRK

    [Response: You're mistaken; methane has shown a measurable increase in the last year, after having been stable since the 90s.]

  • chriscolose // June 14, 2008 at 4:02 am

    Just a clarifying point:

    I would add that the albedo impact on temperature is small to none in the summertime, rather the extra energy either goes into melting or evaporation because of the presence of of ice and open water (surface air temperatures over the Arctic Ocean are constrained to be close to the freezing point in summer). Most of the albedo impact on surface temperature is in the spring and autumn months
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/imbalance/lat_height.html

  • Hank Roberts // June 14, 2008 at 6:07 am

    Here’s the sort of interaction that worries ecologists:
    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2008.01638.x

    Here’s why it’s happening:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v452/n7184/full/452162a.html

  • Raven // June 14, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    climatewonk says:
    “Steven Mosher, that’s disingenuous. Humanity’s burning of fossil fuels is a choice. Polluting is a choice. ”

    You must be kidding. The are 6.5 billion people on this planet and there are no viable alternatives to fossil fuel burning that can keep those people alive. CO2 emissions are not a choice - they are an absolute necessity.

    Now it is possible that some technological breakthough will allow humanity to live without CO2 but that breakthough is not guranteed which means we have no choice but to continue to use our current technology until a viable replacement is found and widely deployed.

  • george // June 14, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    Mario said

    If it was 0.2%…
    in a “linear” world, thinking, as we should, in absolute Kelvin degrees, for a 0,2% TSI variation, we would expect …. humm …. about 0,5 Kelvin degree temperature increment.

    Not quite:

    here’s what i get:

    (1366 W/m^2)*0.002*0.25*0.7 = 0.5 W/m^2 of climate forcing
    where 1366 W/m^2 is the solar “constant”, the factor of 0.7 accounts for albedo and 0.25 accounts for the geometry

    assuming 1 W/m^2 results in a change of about 0.7 deg C, that means a 0.2% increase in TSI would be expected to result in about a 0.35 deg C increase in global temp — ie, about half the actual increase over the last century (0.74C).

    But it is by no means generally accepted by solar scientist that TSI has increased by even 0.2% over the period of relevance (from beginning of industrial period, from about 1850)

    In fact, the assessment of the scientists involved with IPCC was that the radiative forcing increase due to change in TSI over the period 1850 - 2000 was only about 0.2 W/m^2, which would equate to only about 0.08% change in TSI and would have been expected to result in only about a 0.14C change in temp.

    *The solar forcing can be seen on IPCC fig 2.23 in AR4

    IPCC also says solar forcing was

    “about an order of magnitude less than the total greenhouse gas contributions”,

    which were 2 W/m^2 over the period 1850-2000 (as shown on the same fig 2.23)

  • Brian Klappstein // June 14, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    “[Response: You're mistaken; methane has shown a measurable increase in the last year, after having been stable since the 90s.]”

    Since when do the posters here think a one year change is relevant in interpreting climate parameters? Anyone on this forum who notes mid troposphere cooling or some such empirical evidence recently hostile to AGW theory is immediately bludgeoned with statistics and comments like:

    “…eight years doesn’t make a trend…”

    “…only natural variability…”

    etc.

    But hey, if one year changes are significant, then let’s get started. I’m all for it since there’s something to be learned from 1 year changes too. In that theme, did anyone else note that methane actually declined between 2004 and 2006, when the arctic ice loss was in its maximum period of decline?

    Regards, BRK

  • Hank Roberts // June 14, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Quoting from the Wikipedia page linked above. Mario, it appears you latched onto the number apart from the time span. Your conclusion doesn’t follow from the numbers.

    —–excerpt—-
    # Since the Maunder Minimum, over the past 300 years there probably has been an increase of 0.1 to 0.6%, with climate models often using a 0.25% increase.
    ——end excerpt—–
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation#Changes_in_total_irradiance

    Warning, don’t rely on brief excerpts. Look at the original source cited. For Wikipedia, always, also look at the history of changes.

  • cce // June 14, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    The amount of money spent on alternative energies in relationship to the size of the world’s economy is pathetic and incompetent. The reason that there is no viable alternative to fossil fuels is because society has made the choice to spend money on everything but.

    It’s also illustrative that we have to debate the difference between “natural” and manmade. The natural world makes no decisions for itself. It just happens. Human populations owe their existence to human inventions, not the least of which is nitrogen fixing fertilizers, modern medicine, and cheap fossil fuels to make it all possible. In the near future, we will either owe our existence to alternative energies, or we will watch any semblence of our way of life (sometimes literally) evaporate.

  • B Buckner // June 14, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Hank Roberts - Plants and oceans together have consistently removed about 45% of the fossil based CO2 we have put in the atmosphere at increasing rates for the at least the past 45 years. See AR4WG1, Section 7.3.2.1. So the “bathtub drain” is in fact enlarging.

  • Hank Roberts // June 14, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    Brian, don’t play stupid. You know what matters is the number of observations.

    Global annual temperature change has one observation per year per planet, and you need enough observations to detect a trend. Yes.

    Methane or CO2 concentrations are taken at many sites every day. And you need enough observations to detect a trend. Yes.

    The faux-incompetent ploy is so outdated.

  • chriscolose // June 14, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    I agree, we are a long way away from predicting what methane levels will be doing in the near future. I’m also surprised by Tamino’s comment on the one year variation, and at least one paper (http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/reference/bibliography/2006/aff0601.pdf ) suggests the levelling is due to an increased sink rather than changes in sources. I don’t know if anyone claims we can say with high confidence what future long-term trends will do.

  • David B. Benson // June 14, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    Brian Klappstein // June 14, 2008 at 5:31 pm — There is a difference between ‘measurable’ and ’significant’. The latter word is almost surely going to have a rather special meaning for a statistician.

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 12:09 am

    Palaeoclimate: Windows on the greenhouse
    Ed Brook
    Nature 453, 291-292(15 May 2008)
    doi:10.1038/453291a
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v453/n7193/full/453291a.html
    http://www.nature.com/natur/journal/v453/n7193/images/453291a-f1.2.jpg

    Nature 453, 383-386 (15 May 2008) | doi:10.1038/nature06950

    Orbital and millennial-scale features of atmospheric CH4 over the past 800,000 years
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v453/n7193/full/nature06950.html

  • Gareth // June 15, 2008 at 1:28 am

    Thanks for those links, Hank. I think the Shakova AGU paper on methane outgassing from the East Siberian Shelf is most relevant: see discussion here at Hot Topic. Someone might want to check my sums, so that I can sleep at night…

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 1:32 am

    Raven: physical chemistry is far easier to understand than radiation physics. High school education should suffice to understand ocean pH.

  • Brian Klappstein // June 15, 2008 at 2:06 am

    Hank:

    “…Global annual temperature change has one observation per year per planet, and you need enough observations to detect a trend….”

    Surprised you would say that Hank, since we all know that the temporal resolution of most climate related data sets is daily or better. In other words whats stopping me from doing May to May comparisons, or April to April?

    You don’t really think there is only one number for growth for one year do you?

    Regards, BRK

  • george // June 15, 2008 at 2:13 am

    “If rapid ice loss should lead to accelerated permafrost melting, some of the observational proxy data aren’t singing with the choir. Specifically, methane, which should be released by warming peat bogs has not increased significantly since the late 90’s.”

    It would seem that measuring atmospheric methane concentration might not be the best way to gauge whether permafrost is indeed melting. Might better measure that directly.

    There are many sources of methane, melting permafrost being only one. Just because atmospheric methane concentration has leveled off does not necessarily mean that methane release by permafrost has also leveled off. It may be that other sources have released less methane since that time — or that sinks have taken up more.

    The fact that permafrost is melting is not in doubt. And the fact that such melting releases methane is also not in doubt. Nor is the fact that such release has gone up over the past few decades.

    http://www.physorg.com/news76777896.html

  • Tom G // June 15, 2008 at 2:18 am

    Brian…
    Read your last paragraph and then think about it.

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 3:53 am

    Chuckle.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=Brian+Klappstein

  • Barton Paul Levenson // June 15, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Raven writes:

    The are 6.5 billion people on this planet and there are no viable alternatives to fossil fuel burning that can keep those people alive. CO2 emissions are not a choice - they are an absolute necessity.

    In the short term, you’re right. In the long term, there are plenty of other possible power sources.

    Now it is possible that some technological breakthough will allow humanity to live without CO2 but that breakthough is not guranteed which means we have no choice but to continue to use our current technology until a viable replacement is found and widely deployed.

    We already have things we know will work — solar thermal power and wind power. Solar photovoltaic is coming along quickly, geothermal has a huge potential, ocean thermal has barely been tapped, biomass (excepting corn ethnoal, of course) can be a huge source, and of course, conservation and electricity/heat cogeneration can have an immense impact.

  • Mario // June 15, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    George said:
    >(1366 W/m^2)*0.002*0.25*0.7 = 0.5 W/m^2 of climate forcing
    >where 1366 W/m^2 is the solar “constant”,
    > the factor of 0.7 accounts for albedo and 0.25 accounts for the geometry

    I do not think that albedo and geometry factors should enter in the argument, because this is a “comparison”, between now and 300 years ago

    Now with the temperatures of 300 years ago albedo (probably) and geometry (surely) played an identical (…*0.25*0.7) part they are playing with the present ones.

    Apart disregarding the role of “internal heat” of planet Earth, the real problem, in this type of proportional computation is just the linearity/non linearity question:

    how well - that is -an energy variation in input, translates in a proportional temperature variation in output?

    In pure theory absolute temperature is a perfectly linear correspondent of energy, (see Wikipedia “thermal energy”) but even for small and simple system it can’t obviously be fully so:

    if you double the “thermal energy” transferred to a physical body it’s unlikely its temperature will double too, because thermal losses to the outside universe will, very likely, grow more then twice.

    So I fully agree with Tamino that “linear thinking” is, for the whole story, inadequate, or as he said: “It’s approximatly linear for small variations”

    But my argument does not require that linearity holds from zero Kelvin to 288 but only from 288 K to 288,5 which seems to me to be in fact a “small variation”

    Hank Roberts says
    > Quoting from the Wikipedia page linked above. Mario, it appears you
    > latched onto the number apart from the time span.
    > Your conclusion doesn’t follow from the numbers.

    In fact I quoted - and definetly intended to quote - not from Wikipedia, but from your own statement in this thread
    > Bob Tisdale, try 0.2%
    > The variations in total solar irradiance (TSI) remained at or below the threshold …
    > other sources suggest a 0.2% increase in solar irradiance since 1675. …
    > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation

    I wanted just to show that even this 0.2% low figure is high enough to give credibility to the “it’s just the Sun” explanation.

    Now you say that instead a 0.2% TSI increase a better guess is 0.25%
    I can’t see what or how much this increase (!) detracts from my conclusion.

    In fact my main conclusion was that, even if it’s unpleasant to admit, present human knowledge about climate things tends, as shown by the frequency of “surprises”, to grossly overvaluate its powers.

  • climatewonk // June 15, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Raven, not kidding. We’ve only been burning fossil fuels as a main energy source for a very short time. We need energy, yes, but there is no reason it has to be fossil fuels or even dirty fossil fuels. We could use alternatives and develop them so that everyone is able to benefit from development. What is lacking is political will and proper investment.

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Sorry, Mario, but looking at only one factor among the many known factors doesn’t support what you want to conclude.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Climate_Change_Attribution.png

    For your your preferred single factor to have caused the observed changes, all the other known factors must add up to zero. Understand why?

  • David B. Benson // June 15, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    Mario // June 15, 2008 at 2:25 pm — Have you read “The Discovery of Global Warming” by Spencer Weart:

    http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html

    ? You do understand the radiative forcing of CO2, yes?

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Mario, I don’ t know how much you’ve read but here’s a good place to start:

    http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
    Excerpts follow:
    Abstract:

    “There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures. ”

    and

    “5. Conclusions
    There are many interesting palaeoclimate studies that suggest that solar variability had an influence on pre-industrial climate. There are also some detection–attribution studies using global climate models that suggest there was a detectable influence of solar variability in the first half of the twentieth century and that the solar radiative forcing variations were amplified by some mechanism that is, as yet, unknown. However, these findings are not relevant to any debates about modern climate change. Our results show that the observed rapid rise in global mean temperatures seen after 1985 cannot be ascribed to solar variability, whichever of the mechanisms is invoked and no matter how much the solar variation is amplified.”

    Read the references. Use Google Scholar, read the subsequent papers citing these papers.

    And check Coby Beck’s compilation. It will save you from retyping old stuff others have done.
    http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/problems/cause/climate_sceptics/index.cfm

  • Mario // June 15, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    Hank Roberts says:
    > Sorry, Mario, but looking at only one factor
    > among the many known factors doesn’t
    > support what you want to conclude.

    Sorry, but “what I wanted to conclude” here, was not “it’s just the Sun”,

    but

    from the surprisingly high number of surprises in climate matters,

    from the evidence of recent data, suggesting the Sun’s role was quantitatively underestimated (except by those few who predited it right!)

    I conclude - with confidence - this and only this:

    “man presently does not understand climate well enough, to forecast with confidence what will happen”

    But I understand this type of argument to be so impopular to become completely “invisible”,

    because nobody answers it, while I am costantly “confuted” on what I didn’t asserted.

    (I only said that “it’s just the sun” theories have been boosted from recent data - I suppose nobody can deny this - but told also very clearly that I do not consider them”proved” or decisively corroborated, as the recent cooling is too short…)

    So, after thanking all for the interesting links I was supplied with, let’see again, say in six months time.

    We will then have some additional temperature data to match with theories
    and, let’s make a forecast, probably new surprises for too self-assured forecasters.

  • george // June 15, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    mario said:

    “I do not think that albedo and geometry factors should enter in the argument, because this is a “comparison”, between now and 300 years ago”

    They matter if you want to know the change in radiative climate forcing for a given change in TSI — ie, if you are trying to figure out how much temperature is likely to go up for a given change in TSI.

    It is just such a change in climate forcing that causes the temperature change. For a small change in radiative forcing, temperature change is directly proportional to forcing change.

    If i am wrong in thinking that those factors (0.25 for geometry and 0.7 to account for albedo) actually do matter, then so are a lot of other people including all the scientists in IPCC, along with our gracious host (HB), who said above

    [Response: A 2% increase in TSI would still be 27.2 W/m^2 of TSI, 4.8 W/m^2 of climate forcing, and that's impossibly big. Trust me -- it didn't happen.]

    Move the decimal point over one place to the left to change 2% to 0.2% and HB’s 4.8W/m^2 becomes 0.48 which I rounded to 0.5 W/m^2.

    mario continues:

    I wanted just to show that even this 0.2% low figure is high enough to give credibility to the “it’s just the Sun” explanation.

    Unfortunately, it does not. The simple calculation I did above indicates that a 0.2% change in TSI would only account for about 0.35C, or roughly half of the warming that has occurred since 1850.

    My calculation assumed a sensitivity factor of 0.7 deg C for each 1 W/m^2 of climate forcing.

    The number given here is 0.8 instead of the 0.7 ( deg C/W/m2) used above, but that does not change the argument materially (Wikipedia also explains the factors for geometry and albedo, incidentally)

    In order for a 0.2% change in TSI to account for the 0.74C warming that has occurred, climate sensitivity would have to be about 1.5 (deg C/W/m^2)

    While certainly not impossible, such a climate ’sensitivity’ would actually be outside the “likely” range specified by the IPCC : 0.54 - 1.22 ( degC/W/m^2 )

    note: the sensitivity range normally given by IPCC is for CO2 doubling: 2C - 4.5C with a “best’ value of 3C .
    But this is readily converted to the more general case above by dividing by 3.7W/m^2 (the change in radiative forcing for a CO2 doubling)

    but as i indicated above, IPCC and most solar scientists do not believe that TSI change was as large as 0.2% over the relevant period (1850-present). in fact, most think that it was less than half that.

  • Hank Roberts // June 15, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    Found at the link Gareth posted above, this from scientists on an icebreaker in the Arctic; followup includes a comment from Dr. Lawrence:
    http://blogs.nature.com/news/blog/2008/06/on_board_the_amundsen_how_sea.html

  • Brian Klappstein // June 16, 2008 at 12:39 am

    Tom G.:

    “…Brian…
    Read your last paragraph and then think about it….”

    If I rephrase the sentence to “You don’t think there is only one number for growth within a year?” does it make more sense?

    The point I was trying to make is that Hank is wrong in his assumption that methane and temperature are statistically different. In the sense that both have datasets with a temporal resolution of at daily they are the same.

    So any argument that states a one year trend in methane is more significant than an 8 year trend in temperature is possibly right, but not for the reason that Hank states, i.e. there is only one datapoint for temperature growth in a year.

    Regards, BRK

  • Mike // June 16, 2008 at 2:36 am

    Why do idiots keep talking about the “sink” absorbing “half” the CO2? The concentaration is increasing linearly! Every year the emissions increase, yet the rate of concentration increase is the same as it was twenty years ago. Half toady, half twenty years ago, same rate of increase. Makes perfect sense…….NOT!

  • Raven // June 16, 2008 at 2:37 am

    “We already have things we know will work — solar thermal power and wind power.”

    Neither technology has been proven to be some thing that can be deployed on the scale required. Now it is possible that 10-15 years from now we will have a few large scale projects that will allow us to *start* talking about replacing the existing CO2 emitting sources. At that point it would still take another 50+ years to complete any conversion. Until then we have to keep emitting CO2.

    “Solar photovoltaic is coming along quickly, geothermal has a huge potential…”

    Pure speculation. Perhaps you are right and they will be the energy source of the future 100+ years from now but we need power now and those technologies are not going to help much.

    The bottom line is you people better hope you are wrong about CO2 because you are fooling yourselves if you think ‘alternative’ technologies will provide any significant reductions in CO2 emissions over the next 50 years. Until then emitting CO2 is a necessity of life.

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 5:29 am

    > both have datasets with a temporal resolution of
    > at daily they are the same.

    Where’s this global daily temperature dataset?
    Source please?

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 5:30 am

    Raven, please read:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7059/abs/nature04095.html

  • anon // June 16, 2008 at 7:50 am

    Raven is indeed correct. It is a total illusion to think alternative power can support our present lifestyle. It is a grave disservice to the planet to put about the idea that it can.

    The first thing we have to do is get rid of cars, trucks and suburbs and air travel. And that is only the start.

  • dhogaza // June 16, 2008 at 10:47 am

    The bottom line is you people better hope you are wrong about CO2 because you are fooling yourselves if you think ‘alternative’ technologies will provide any significant reductions in CO2 emissions over the next 50 years.

    I think you have this backwards. We know we’re right about many aspects of CO2 (though you’re welcome to go into the lab and prove the basic physics to be wrong).

    Hope doesn’t trump fact, and yet it seems to be your sense of defeatism that drives your denialism.

    Can’t do anything about it, therefore the science MUST be wrong.

    Those of us who “get” the basic science aren’t the ones fooling ourselves …

  • Barton Paul Levenson // June 16, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    Raven writes:

    “We already have things we know will work — solar thermal power and wind power.”

    Neither technology has been proven to be some thing that can be deployed on the scale required.

    Says who? You?

    What would prevent deploying them on a large scale? Especially since, in the case of windmills, other countries already HAVE deployed them on a large scale? Denmark gets 16% of its electricity from windmills, you know. There are big wind farms in Germany and Britain and they’re building bigger ones. There’s even a big wind farm in Texas now.

    “Solar photovoltaic is coming along quickly, geothermal has a huge potential…”

    Pure speculation.

    What is speculative about it? For photovoltaics just google it and check the price per watt and the production in different years. PV sales are growing at something like 30% a year. As to the potential of geothermal, that’s just a fact of geology. The Earth does get hotter the deeper you go, and you can run a turbine off the temperature difference.

  • J // June 16, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Mike writes: Why do idiots keep talking about the “sink” absorbing “half” the CO2? The concentaration is increasing linearly! Every year the emissions increase, yet the rate of concentration increase is the same as it was twenty years ago. Half toady, half twenty years ago, same rate of increase. Makes perfect sense…….NOT!

    Sorry, but you’re wrong. In the 1970s, CO2 at MLO was increasing by 1.2 ppm per year. In the 1980s-1990s the rate was 1.6 ppm per year. Since 2000 it’s averaged 2.1 ppm per year.

    In other words, not only is the concentration increasing, but the rate of increase is increasing.

  • Eli Rabett // June 16, 2008 at 12:59 pm

    It’s fairly clear that wind can be deployed, you just have to look at northern Europe to see this written into the landscape. OTOH you don’t see a single windmill in France.

  • george // June 16, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    Raven is indeed correct. It is a total illusion to think alternative power can support our present lifestyle.

    Ah, but who says “our present lifestyle” is sacred or even worth perpetuating.

    It’s no secret that we Americans are incredibly wasteful, of energy and everything else.

    For example, many European countries use just half the energy per capita that we do and their “standard of living” is nonetheless just as high as — and in some cases actually higher than — it is in the US.

    So, whether renewable energy can support “our present lifestyle” might be the wrong question entirely.

    It’s clear that a switch to renewable energy and other alternatives is going to require major changes in lifestyle, but what is not clear (notwithstanding the claims of libertarians and others) is that this would necessarily be a bad thing.

    If the European lifestyle is any indication, it might even be a good thing for us here in the US: less traffic, less pollution, more leisure time, less stress, etc.

    And it would certainly not be a bad thing for the rest of the world if 5% of the world’s population in the US stopped using 25% of the energy and other resources.

  • Heretic // June 16, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Actually there are a few Eli, I’ve seen some in the Rhone valley, where the Mistral can generate a lot of power. There are very few, however, possibly because nuclear provides such a large share of the electricity produced. Windmills have also met widespread NIMBY opposition.

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    > sinks
    We’re being visited by the “witnessing” crowd who proclaim their faith-based climate scenarios.

    You can look this stuff up.
    http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1995/94GB01779.shtml
    And much else over many years
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=le+quere+sinks+carbon
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/316/5832/1735

    Those of you stating beliefs without sources in the literature, would you be willing to say why you believe what you so often repeat in climate forums?

    God will provide? Best of all possible worlds? Saucer people or Free markets will fix everything? Better planets will be cheaper later?

  • Ken // June 16, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Geothermal is most definitely more than “pie in the sky” and the only reason it would require 100 years to implement, is if we continue to do absolutely nothing to move off coal.

    http://geothermal.inel.gov/publications/future_of_geothermal_energy.pdf
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal/index.html

  • Rainman // June 16, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    In regards to alternatives to oil, here in the NW solar is a tough sell due to cloud cover (especially this year). When you mention wind farms large numbers of enviromentalists / whoever start saying ‘not in my back yard’, ‘what about the birds’, ‘it destroys the scenery’, etc…

    You can’t have it both ways.

    I still say go nuclear. It’s the most dependable source we have for the time being.

  • Briso // June 16, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 5:29 am

    > both have datasets with a temporal resolution of
    > at daily they are the same.

    Where’s this global daily temperature dataset?
    Source please?

    http://discover.itsc.uah.edu/amsutemps/data/amsu_daily_85N85S_chLT.r001.txt

  • steven mosher // June 16, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    hank, you put such a trust in citing sources.
    How about access to real data?

  • steven mosher // June 16, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Eli. wind power is great

    ( dead birds aside)

    Do a post on a Kennedy and wind power.

    Go ahead. you wont.

  • steven mosher // June 16, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    george.

    cites please. otherwise you are a flat earther a creationist, and a believer in ID.

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    Briso, that’s air temperatures measured at three altitudes; determining a global temperature trend needs much more data. Did you find papers relying on that data set? Worth looking for. Mosher may be able to help you.

  • george // June 16, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Mosher:

    At least I’m not a liar (”Piltdown Mann”)

  • dhogaza // June 16, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    George: good call.

    When you mention wind farms large numbers of enviromentalists / whoever start saying ‘not in my back yard’, ‘what about the birds’, ‘it destroys the scenery’, etc…

    The bird issue is mostly one of siting and design, and suggesting that one must sacrifice large numbers of raptors in order to build wind farms is as stupid as Wired’s recent suggestion that we should liquidate old-growth forests in order to save the planet from global warming.

    The industry has been forced to learn due to the effort of conservationists who not only care about environmental issues, but about the welfare of wildlife and the preservation of our biological heritage, as well.

    Modern, well-sited, well-designed windfarms have a non-zero but tolerable impact on birds. The fact that the wind power industry was forced, kicking and screaming, to figure out how to make it so is not the fault of those of us who dragged them along by suing for monitoring, mitigation, and better design. They could’ve gone willingly.

    And, to be honest, after the first few rounds of battle, largely have.

    It turns out that some of the things that make wind-powered turbines more economical also reduce their impact on birds.

    Monolithic towers rather than the derrick-style supports used at Altamont Pass, for instance, don’t tempt raptors to perch-hunt from the support (and getting whacked when flying to perch or diving to prey).

    There’s good evidence that larger mills, which are favored now by builders of wind farms, are more obvious to all birds (not just raptors), and therefore safer.

    And, oh, I live here in the PNW, and windfarms are sprouting up all over. If you’re one of those westsiders who never make it out to the columbia river plateau you might not have noticed.

  • Rainman // June 16, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    Dhog: Yeah, I’m a westsider, haven’t been out the Gorge in a few years.

    Everything you said about design/siting etc, is true. While the conservationalists have driven the design somewhat, I think they have hurt the effort in the long run. I saw a program about a wind farm off the coast of Holland (I think) that was amazing. The blades (3 bladed) were something like 150 ft.

    I’m also intrigued with the solar tower project. Think that one was in Australia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

  • David B. Benson // June 16, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    Mario // June 15, 2008 at 9:28 pm — Its not the sun.

    Sunspot TSI proxy:

    http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Sunspot_Numbers_png

    versus temperature goes up noticably in the last 100 years.

  • george // June 16, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Steven Mosher says:

    george.

    cites please. otherwise you are a flat earther a creationist, and a believer in ID.

    I can only assume this is in reference to my statement above about standard of living and per capita energy use (since I did reference the TSI stuff above)

    many European countries use just half the energy per capita that we do and their “standard of living” is nonetheless just as high as — and in some cases actually higher than — it is in the US.

    So, here’s a breakdown of per capita energy use by country.

    The following European countries use roughly half (or less) the energy per capita as the US (the reference number for the US is 8.35)

    Netherlands 4.76 ( 57% the US )
    France 4.25 ( 51% of the US)
    Germany 4.13 (49.5%)
    UK 3.89 (46.6%)
    Ireland 3.86 (46.2%)
    Switzerland 3.7 (44.3%)
    Denmark 3.64 (43.6%)
    Austria 3.52 (42.2%)
    Italy 2.97 (35.6%)

    Now, on to “standard of living.”

    I’m sure some are going to balk at whatever measure I choose for standard of living, but let me simply say that standard of living certainly involves far more than just per capita GDP. In fact, most people would consider absurd to simply use that (and most don’t)

    Here’s one measure that is used by the UN:

    Human development index

    here’s how it is described

    The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development, a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc.

    The index for the US is 0.951 (that’s our reference)

    Here’s the same index for those European countries listed above

    Netherlands 0.953
    France 0.952
    Germany 0.935
    UK 0.946
    Ireland 0.959
    Switzerland 0.955
    Austria 0.948
    Italy 0.941

    let’s see.

    out of those 9 European countries that use about half the energy per capita as the US, 4 of them have a HDI above that of the US and most of the rest are very close (about the same)

    Practically speaking, I honestly do not know what the difference between an HDI of 0.946 (UK) or even 0.935(germany) and 0.951 (US) would mean.

    What does a 1.7% difference (germany) from the US number signify?

    Probably not much is my guess. Anyone who has been to Germany several times like I have knows that they enjoy pretty much the same high standard of living that we enjoy here in the US*

    *some would argue “higher”, but if I did that here, I would certainly be called a “socialist” (or worse) — in addition to “a flat earther a creationist, and a believer in ID” . :)

    I wonder: To what do I owe such an honor?

  • george // June 16, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    oops,

    Left Denmark off my HDI list above

    It has an HDI of 0.949 or very comparable to the US (0.951) BUT Denmark only uses about 43.6% the energy per capita as the US.

    I might also note that there are a few other European countries that use significantly less energy than the US per capita (albeit more than half) that also have an HDI that is very comparable to that of the US

    Again the US HDI is 0.951

    ________Energy consumption __HDI
    Norway 68%of US _______ 0.968
    Sweden 68% of US _______ 0.956
    Belgium 69.2% of US_______0.946

  • Brian Klappstein // June 16, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Hank Roberts:

    “…Briso, that’s air temperatures measured at three altitudes; determining a global temperature trend needs much more data….”

    Why not just do the gracious thing and admit you were wrong Hank. Both global temperature and methane are data are collected daily, and thus are subject to the same statistical interpretations over similar time frames.

    You may be intuitively right Hank; the 1 year up tick in methane may be more significant than the 8 year cooling trend in the mid troposphere; after all the methane data appear less noisy.

    But to argue that without proper reference to statistics looks to be the dreaded “cherry picking” syndrome.

    Regards BRK

  • dhogaza // June 16, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    Everything you said about design/siting etc, is true. While the conservationalists have driven the design somewhat, I think they have hurt the effort in the long run

    Only true if you honestly believe that we must sacrifice other environmental standards to the altar of wind energy.

    There’s no need to do so. This is the kind of thinking that’s gotten us in trouble with other technologies.

    If it’s broke, there’s nothing wrong with fixing it, and to blame those who insist on fixes being implemented, well, to me that’s just a weird way of thinking.

    NIMBY protests are a different matter, and can’t be blamed on science-based conservation, insistence on mitigation, etc.

  • Lost and Confused // June 16, 2008 at 9:45 pm

    Unless I am mistaken, those numbers are rather meaningless george. None of the European countries you listed are remotely close to the United States in size. Without accounting for the differences in size, you fail to show the United States is any more wasteful. This is not to say your point is wrong, but rather you failed to prove it.

    That is, unless you consider having increased transportation overhead due to the size of the country as being “wasteful.”

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    Brian, cite welcome. No hurry.

  • Rainman // June 16, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Dhog: Not so much sacrificing to the alter, but not impeding progression of the technology.

    Any tech needs to be implemented and then lessons are learned from that implementation. The lowered amount of feedback from implementation slows down innovation or delays failures/successes.

    I’m not saying throw down windfarms or whatever willy-nilly, that is foolish. But the cost of the legal battles, etc drains research budgets and drives up the break-even point for that energy source. That makes it less cost effective than the current ‘evil’ tech we want to replace. Not good for anyone.

  • Hank Roberts // June 16, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    Here’s a source on methane trend measurement through 2005 (conference proceedings available as a CD-ROM from the publisher)

    Variations in trends in global methane concentrations, 1978-2005: Six years of ery slow net global atmospheric. methane growth. F.S. Rowland, I.J. Simpson, …
    Program: http://www.ncgg4.nl/Prelprog.pdf
    Proceedings:
    http://www.millpress.nl/shop/catalogue%20media/978-90-5966-043-4.pdf

  • L Miller // June 16, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Perhaps even more telling then energy/person is CO2/person

    metric tons/person of CO2

    US 20.4
    Norway 19.1
    Japan 9.5
    France 6.2
    Ireland 10.4
    UK 9.8
    Germany 9.8
    Belgium 9.7
    Netherlands 8.85
    Austria 8.5
    Italy 7.7
    Switzerland 5.5
    Sweden 5.5

    (Norway is probably high due to its oil industry. It’s the biggest producer in Europe and one of the world’s top 5 exporters of oil.)

    Size isn’t a relevant argument. No one drives across the US to get to work. Even in the US 100 miles is a long commute, and these countries are more then large enough for people to live that far from work if their infrastructure was designed that way. There may be some case for saying the US would use a little more energy for transportation, but that’s not nearly enough to account for the huge difference.

  • Brian Dodge // June 16, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    “That is, unless you consider having increased transportation overhead due to the size of the country as being “wasteful.”
    CHOOSING to live 25 miles from where you work;
    CHOOSING to drive to work in a Hummer;
    CHOOSING to eat produce flown across the country instead of locally grown food;
    CHOOSING to live in a 10000 sq.ft McMansion heated to 75F in the winter and cooled to 65F in the summer;
    THAT’S WASTEFUL.

  • Lost and Confused // June 17, 2008 at 12:05 am

    Brian Dodge, nothing in your post demonstrates those are more common in the United States than in other countries. Your post does not address the issue.

    L Miller, your dismissal is faulty. Size is not relevant due to an individual’s personal consumption being greater (though that plays some role), but rather the infrastructure’s increased requirements. To get the energy per capita measurements, the total amount of energy used by the country is divided by the population. This means energy not directly consumed by an individual is still relevant.

    Think of merchandise. Distributing merchandise across a small country is fairly easy, requiring little energy. Distributing the same merchandise across a larger country (United States) is more difficult, consuming far more energy. The trucking industry of the United States consumes a great deal of energy, which will increase the energy per capita measurement.

    I do not know how much of an impact the size of a country would impact energy per capita, but it is not something which can simply be ignored.

  • Chad // June 17, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Off topic: I see that you apparently use Excel for your calculations and graphs. Do you ever use Matlab? If so, what kind of calculations do you use it for?

  • Lost and Confused // June 17, 2008 at 1:23 am

    Something struck me as I briefly looked at the numbers. Finland’s population density is one of the three lowest in Europe. It has an energy per capita consumption equal to 74% the United States level. Norway, another of the three least densely populated European countries has an energy per capita consumption equal to 68% the United States level. It is interesting to see Norway and Finland are both extremely high in energy per capita for European countries. Both have low population density, as does the United States. It seems quite plausible there would be some connection.

  • Dano // June 17, 2008 at 2:24 am

    That is, unless you consider having increased transportation overhead due to the size of the country as being “wasteful.”

    Pshaw.

    This argumentation depends on the premise that reg’lur folk travel all over the country.

    This is, of course, false.

    Americans’ VMT is much higher, their consumption is much higher, their homes are more wasteful, to be sure.

    That has nothing to do with country size, but wealth and consumption.

    Smarter contrarian/denialist/delusionist fringe argumentation , please.

    Best,

    D

  • Lost and Confused // June 17, 2008 at 3:03 am

    From Dano, “This argumentation depends on the premise that reg’lur folk travel all over the country.”

    My post that got crossed with this discusses why this is not true. Energy per capita would clearly be influenced by country size in a number of ways. Blindly dismissing its impact is ridiculous. If there is reason to believe its impact would be minute, then the reason should be given.

    It is telling when people like Dano interpret demands for rigorous methodology as “contrarian/denialist/delusionist fringe argumentation.”

  • dhogaza // June 17, 2008 at 4:11 am

    Not so much sacrificing to the alter, but not impeding progression of the technology.

    Any tech needs to be implemented and then lessons are learned from that implementation. The lowered amount of feedback from implementation slows down innovation or delays failures/successes.

    So the crux of your argument is that feedback by conservationists has lowered feedback.

    Think hard about this. Like, maybe you should’ve thought hard about it before stating something so silly?

    The hazards of derrick-style supports for raptor populations were documented by biologists. This led to regulatory pushes to not allow such supports to be used. Now, industry wouldn’t go back to derrick supports if you begged them to.

    Exactly how did this feedback hurt the industry or hinder anything?

    I suppose you’ll also argue that pushback on the energy industries due to global warming are slowing down the industry’s natural inclination to reduce CO2 emissions (cough cough).

    It is interesting to see Norway and Finland are both extremely high in energy per capita for European countries. Both have low population density, as does the United States. It seems quite plausible there would be some connection.

    It’s also possible that Norway and Finland are *bleeping* cold in winter.

    I’ve heard this might be the case. In fact, though I’ve not been to Norway, I do remember flying into Copenhagen to fix client problems one spring. I was going to a conference in the south of france, and got a last-minute call to switch to Copenhagen to fix some software issues at Danish National Radio and only had a few hours to buy tickets, repack, etc.

    Put in some warmer clothes, but not warm enough. As we descended towards the Danish island, I saw broad swaths of white.

    “Oh, I didn’t realize that Denmark had such nice huge white beaches!”

    Lower … “oh my, it’s all ICE! Miles and miles of it!”

    Nothing like it in the lower 48. Norway’s further north.

    So perhaps these places are just cold and have higher energy consumption than their neighbors further south for the obvious reason.

  • Philippe Chantreau // June 17, 2008 at 4:32 am

    Very clever, L&C. We should obviously leave aside the more basic considerations such as the latitude dependent ones.

  • Hank Roberts // June 17, 2008 at 4:51 am

    > I do not know how much …

    http://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+of+an+impact+the+size+of+a+country+would+impact+energy+per+capita%3F

    http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/LifestyleChoicesAffectUSImpactontheEnvironment.aspx

  • george // June 17, 2008 at 5:08 am

    Lost and confused said

    Unless I am mistaken, those numbers are rather meaningless george. None of the European countries you listed are remotely close to the United States in size. Without accounting for the differences in size, you fail to show the United States is any more wasteful.’

    So, are you suggesting that if, like Europe, the United States of America were made up of a bunch of (50?) smaller, semi-autonomous units, then the US would use significantly less energy per capita than it currently does? (ie, more in line with the roughly 50 countries of Europe?)

    Lost and confused also said

    It is interesting to see Norway and Finland are both extremely high in energy per capita for European countries. Both have low population density, as does the United States. It seems quite plausible there would be some connection.

    So, less dense means more energy use?

    Somehow, I would have thought it would be the other way around: the less dense you are, the less energy you use — and the more money you save! :)

    In all seriousness, you don’t have much familiarity with Europeans and their energy and resource use habits, do you?

    It’s not really any deep secret that Europeans tend to be more conservative (in the true sense of the word) than Americans — ie, when it comes to energy and resources.

    I suspect it has far more to do with the historic availability (and hence cost) of energy and resources than anything else.

    If something is less available, it costs more, and if it costs more, people naturally look for ways to use — and waste — less of it.

    This is precisely what happened in the US in response to the 1973 oil embargo (which has an obvious lesson for today)

    On the other hand, a country like Norway with only 5 million people that has nearly half the oil reserves of the US (nearly 4% those of Saudi Arabia!) probably has far less incentive for conserving.

    But the latter fact — that Norway has all that oil and nonetheless still only has 68% of US per capita energy use — actually tells you something about Norwegians (and probably not about population density)

    You really have to be careful about reading too much into population density, at any rate. There are many ways that population density can lead one astray.

    For example, it could be that most people in a particular country with a large land area happen to live on a relatively small fraction of the total land area. In that case, the population density arrived at by diving population by total land area would not mean much, since the population density where most people were actually living would be considerably higher than the (total population)/ (total land) number.

    Take Finland, for example: “Around 5.3 million people reside in Finland, with the majority concentrated in the southern part of country.”
    So the 16/square km has to be taken with a grain of salt.

  • Raven // June 17, 2008 at 5:28 am

    On Danish wind power:

    http://www.countryguardian.net/vmason.htm

    “Almost a fifth of the electricity produced annually in Denmark is generated by wind, yet only about 6% of the country’s electricity demand is satisfied directly from this source. Possibly two-thirds of its wind power output cannot be used to satisfy domestic needs at the moment of generation, and has to be exported (often at reduced prices) to preserve the integrity of the grid. Savings in carbon emissions are minimal. Public opposition and reduced subsidies have halted the deployment of on-shore wind turbines for the time being, but political and commercial interests are pressing to integrate much larger amounts of wind power into radically altered domestic and international transmission systems. ”

    On our current power needs:

    sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/001444meantime_back_in_th.html

    “The Center for Global Development estimates that there are 25,339 power plants around the world that emit carbon dioxide. If the world starts replacing or converting these plants to carbon free energy production at the rate of one plant per day, then it will take 69 years to make all of these power plants carbon neutral, and an 80% conversion would take 56 years. If you’d like assume that most emissions come from the largest plants, you can cut those numbers in half or even by 2/3 and the point remains. At a conversion rate of one plant per week — using only the top 1/3 emitters — it would take 145 years to convert 80% of these 1/3 (162 years to convert the entire 1/3).”

    If CO2 is the problem then ada