Open Mind

Central England Temperature

April 28, 2008 · 288 Comments

The longest single instrumental temperature record, one which has recently come under scrutiny in comments on this blog, is the Central England Temperature, or CET. The primary CET record consists of estimates of monthly average temperature from 1659 to the present. Let’s take a close look.


Here’s a graph of the CET data:

The first thing we notice is that the earliest data tend to fall along dense lines of whole-numbers values. This is because from 1659 through 1670, monthly estimates of CET are only given to the nearest whole degree C. From 1671 through October 1722 they’re only recorded to the nearest 0.5 deg.C, except for a brief interval from 1699 through 1706 when the data are to the nearest 0.1 deg.C. Only from November 1722 to the present do we have an uninterrupted record of monthly averages recorded to the neares 0.1 deg.C. In addition, there’s a record of daily temperature estimates from central England, but these don’t begin until 1772. Hence at the outset we can distinguish four episodes of varying precision in the data:

1659-1670 1 deg.C
1671-1722 0.5 deg.C
1723-1771 0.1 deg.C
1772-2008 daily data

Not only are the earlier episodes less precise by virtue of fewer significant digits, they were recorded when the science of thermometry was in its infancy. The alcohol thermometer was invented in 1709, and the mercury thermometer in 1714, so all thermometer records prior to that are due to different instruments whose accuracy and calibration are uncertain. Nor were these early measurements taken on modern scales; the Fahrenheit scale wasn’t invented until 1724, and the Celsius scale didn’t appear until 1742. Hence all thermometer measurements prior to the mid-18th century should be considered far less reliable than those taken later.

We can of course remove the annual cycle of the seasons by taking the difference between each month’s value, and the average for that month during a reference period. I’ll use the entire time span as the reference period, so that negative values are cooler-than-average months and positive values are warmer-than-average months:

Something caught my eye when viewing the anomalies, which is more evident when viewing a larger version of the graph (click to see the whole thing):

In the early years, there are dense areas with the same value. They’re highlighted in a closeup of the early years, here:

I haven’t read the documentation of the construction of the CET (if I were conducting a study for peer-reviewed publication, I surely would), but this indicates the possibility that during the early years, missing values were “filled in” with the average value over a longer time span. If true (and I emphasize the “if”), then those values aren’t direct measurements at all. This further emphasizes the reduced reliability of the earlier part of the record.

Using monthly values emphasizes the rapid fluctuations of temperature which are much more “noise” than “signal” in the long-term record. We can begin to reduce the noise by taking annual averages:

To make this easier to see, here’s a larger version (click to see the whole thing):

One thing that’s apparent is that most of the hottest years have happened recently; not to sound too much like a certain Nobel-peace-prize-winning former politician, but 9 of the 10 hottest years in the CET record have occured in the last two decades.

If we’re looking for climate rather than weather, even annual averages show more noise than signal. So I computed moving averages, using a 5-yr window, a 10-yr window, and a 30-yr window (the most common time period for computing climatological means):

As the averaging interval gets longer, the size of the “wiggles” in the smoothed data gets smaller. By the time we get to 30-year moving averages, the wiggles are greatly reduced but the signal still remains. This argues for the appropriateness of the “industry standard” 30-year window for climatological means. Hence I computed smoothed values on a 30-year time scale, using both moving averages and a Savitsky-Golay filter:

I’ve also plotted lines marking out the episodes of known changes in the precision of the data. It’s now clear that the recent rise in temperature is unlike anything seen in the more accurate part of the CET record. It’s also much warmer than anything seen in the entire CET record. If we plot only the most precise part of the data, from 1800 to the present, we get a very clear picture of the climatological changes in CET for the last two centuries:

In this limited view, the temperature increase during the modern global warming era is both quantitatively and qualitatively unlike any other part of the record. Even including all the earlier, less precise data, the recent warming has brought central England to a climate much warmer than previously measured.

The rate of warming in CET since 1980 is 0.05 +/- 0.02 deg.C/yr, or half a degree C per decade. If this trend continues, then by mid-century CET will have increased by a substantial amount, another 2 deg.C. This will bring CET to heights unknown for at least 350 years, probably several thousand years, and in all likelihood warmth not seen since humans inhabited the British Isles.

Categories: Global Warming · climate change
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288 responses so far ↓

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm | Reply

    How recent is “the present” (where base data ends in current times)?

    The stuff with looking at the patterns of data filling in the old years is very nice. Very SMish (reminds me of him plotting the grass plots). I don’t know if your circled areas are chance clumps or a good catch and would obviously feel better with analysis.

    Looking at your seventh figure, red line, there seems to be a fair amount of natural variability of the regional climate, prior to 1950. Even if you constrain it to 1750-1950, there’s still reasonable regional temp variation. Given that the MWP is posited to have been a large, natural regional variation, even by stout AGWers (regional, I say), I don’t think you can well find support for AGW from a single region series. Since a single region is capable of having experienced natural variations to match the current one, no? And of course we could probably find regions that have recent temp downturns if we scan the globe.

    I think you are letting the end slopes dictate too much of rise, with the way you display that red line on the last figure. I’m not crazy about the extrapolation at all (given there’s actual data there). But if you’re going to do it, why not extrapolate “back” at 1800 as well?

    [Response: The CET data are current (up to March 2008). There's no extrapolation at all in any of the graphs. One of the advantages of most smoothing filters over moving averages is that they permit estimates throughout the entire span of the data, while moving averages, if we require complete 30-year time spans, can only come within 15 years of the data edges (the value plotted at 1800 is based on data from 1785 to 1815).

    The variation observed in the 30-year smoothed data from 1750 to 1950 isn't nearly as big as the warming observed recently. The entire range of variation is only about 0.5 deg.C, while we've seen a little over 1.2 deg.C warming in just the last 30 years. Even including the less precise earlier data, the 300 years preceding 1950 show a total range of variation of about 1.2 deg.C, roughly what we've seen in the last 30 yr.]

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 6:16 pm | Reply

    The red isn’t extrapolation, is it? It’s annual data.

    The last figure’s just a closeup of the recent end of the full previous one; the 30-year average (gray) can’t extend out to the ends of the yearly (red) data.

    It’s clearly not a hockey stick –rotate this:
    http://www.antiquemystique.com/images/6820_jpg.jpg
    turn it 180 degrees for a better match.

  • nanny_govt_sucks // April 28, 2008 at 6:23 pm | Reply

    This will bring CET to heights unknown for at least 350 years, probably several thousand years, and in all likelihood warmth not seen since humans inhabited the British Isles.

    Maybe soon it will be habitable there. :-) But seriously, is warmth such a bad thing?

    Spectacular orchids double due to global warming
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/spectacular-orchids-double-due-to-global-warming-475373.html
    “Until now, the effects of global warming on Britain’s plant kingdom have only been detected in phenology – the timing of appearing, leafing and flowering. For example, oak trees are coming into leaf as many as 10 days earlier than they were 30 years ago, and spring flowers such as snowdrops are blooming as early as December.

    But the new study – the BSBI Local Change Survey – clearly shows that some species are now increasing in numbers and frequency of occurrence in a way that is consistent with steadily rising temperatures.”

  • Lost and Confused // April 28, 2008 at 6:29 pm | Reply

    I may be misinformed, but didn’t the CET record undergo a significant change in 1974? I know the adjustments for urban warming began then, but I have read they completely changed which stations were used that year as well.

    I am not sure if this is true or not, and I do not know how to find out offhand. If it is true, it would seem rather awkward to compare the record before 1974 to after 1974. Pardon a bit of skepticism, but I cannot help but wonder at the timing of the warming in these graphs.

    I looked through the official CET website and could not find information about which stations were used for particular periods. Could anyone provide clarity on what, if any, station changes happened in 1974 (or ideally, a source discussing all changes in which stations made the CET record)?

  • gerda // April 28, 2008 at 7:51 pm | Reply

    Hank! that’s not funny….well it is, but you know…

    actually the first thing i noticed on the CET data was the disappearance of sub-zero monthly averages from about 1990. but then i am a gardener, it tallies with my observation of much milder winter averages and lack of long cold snaps to kill the bugs.

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 7:55 pm | Reply

    OK, I see now that there is not an extrapolation. I’m still concerned about using a smooth as opposed to a moving average as it sort of pins the end point, no? Whether we call it some fancy math name or not, that’s the impact. And is that reasonable? Are the end data points carrying more impact than the middle ones?

    [Response: No, smoothing doesn't pin the end points.]

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 8:07 pm | Reply

    Lost, did you look at any of these pages?
    http://www.google.com/search?q=CET+temperature+record+England+time+stations

    If not, where were you looking? Remember, negative results _do_ count because they help others know what you tried to get an answer.

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Reply

    P.S., for all who use or want CET data — no doubt you read this on their website:
    ———–
    Leave feedback For problems getting or understanding the data, or to suggest some improvement please leave feedback. If you find the data useful, please return and tell us what you did with it.
    ———–

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 8:35 pm | Reply

    When should one use smoothing and when moving average?

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Reply

    The 2005 paper (PDF, last under References, link is at the CET main page) ends:

    “On 1 November 2004, Squires Gate and Ringway were replaced by a new automated station at Stonyhurst, owing to closure of Ringway. We took account of systematic differences in CETmax , CETmean and CETmin in each calendar month by using parallel observations made during 2001 – 04. We also plan to replace Malvern by an automated, more rural station at Pershore when adequate parallel observations have been made and analysed.”

    That’s the right way.

  • Hugh // April 28, 2008 at 8:41 pm | Reply

    Land C. You seem to be suggesting that the 1974 station change was probably carried out with absolutely no consideration of effect at all? I suppose that’s up to you. This is a quote from the very first paper cited on the Met Office CET page (Parker and Horton, 2005), seems they were using additional data in order to improve the series; to make it better

    Owing to the availability of additional digitized daily data, Parker et al. (1992) used different stations for daily CET[mean] than Manley (1974) had used for monthly CET (Table I). Because of these differences in stations, the areal average temperature at the Parker et al. stations differed slightly from the Manley values. So, to maintain homogeneity (Section 1), Parker et al. (1992) adjusted their daily CET[mean] values to make their monthly averages consistent with Manley (1974). For the same reason, when we created daily CET[max] and CET[min] series, again using a different sequence of stations, we adjusted the values so that each day’s average of CET[max] and CET[min] equaled that day’s adjusted CET[mean] and was therefore also compatible with Manley (1974). Here, we estimate the uncertainties arising from these adjustments. We also estimate the uncertainties stemming from the adjustments applied by Parker et al. (1992) to recent CET[mean] to compensate for urban warming.
    The adjustments applied to daily CET[mean] account for differences in station position, instruments and time of day of observation between the Manley (1974) data and the Parker et al. (1992) data. They were calculated by Parker et al. (1992) for individual months in their common period, 1772 to 1973. The adjustments for 1878 to 1973 are tabulated in Parker et al. (1991). Since 1974, the CET for each month has been adjusted by the mean adjustment for that month calculated using available Rothamsted, Malvern, Squires Gate and Ringway data over the years 1944, 1948, 1949 and 1959–73 (Parker et al., 1992). This is done before the urban warming adjustments are applied.

  • John Andrews // April 28, 2008 at 8:51 pm | Reply

    I’m bothered by the use of different scales for the graphs. Seems to me that if you start plotting the anomalies using +-6 degrees, then you should do the same for all, even the smoothed graphs. Only in this way will the appearance of the graphs when compared with each other visually be the same. Although the amplification of the scale tends to show what you want it to show, doing so tends also to bias the viewers perception of the graph. In other words, it ain’t as bad as it looks!

  • dhogaza // April 28, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Reply

    But seriously, is warmth such a bad thing?

    Spectacular orchids double due to global warming

    Meanwhile, kudzu is marching northwards in some sort of weird, invasive species reversal of Sherman’s march through the south.

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 9:01 pm | Reply

    I thought the US SE was one of the regions that hasn’t had recent warming.

  • Doug Clover // April 28, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Reply

    And down here in NZ we are waiting the first cases of Dengue fever as the northern part of the North Island gets warmer and wetter.

    Doug

  • dhogaza // April 28, 2008 at 9:12 pm | Reply

    Kudzu’s northern limit is, AFAIK, limited by winter freezes, so all you need is a bit of warming at the northern limit of the range, to the degree that it doesn’t freeze hard enough to kill it, and voila!

    There you are.

  • dhogaza // April 28, 2008 at 9:39 pm | Reply

    And down here in NZ we are waiting the first cases of Dengue fever as the northern part of the North Island gets warmer and wetter.

    And in the mediterranean they’re tracking a couple of diseases (maybe even Dengue) as they push further north in Italy, along with their (originally) African mosquito vectors …

    But, hey, when you’re sick in the hospital, near death, there’s nothing like a few orchids to cheer you up!

  • David B. Benson // April 28, 2008 at 9:48 pm | Reply

    Pine bark beetle’s northen range is limited by very hard winters (they possess a natural anti-freeze). Let the winters warm up and, voila, southeastern British Columbia with about 34+ million acres of dead lodgepole pine.

  • Lost and Confused // April 28, 2008 at 9:55 pm | Reply

    Hugh, I have no idea what would make you think I suggest that. I do not care to guess at people’s thoughts. However, I have no problem looking at facts and evidence. In this case, there seem to be two important pieces. One, 1974 saw a major change in gathering of data, as the stations involved were replaced with different ones. Two, the data prior to 1974 has a markedly different trend then the data after 1974.

    If both of these are accurate, it seems extremely awkward to compare the two time periods. I do not how one could justify comparing them. Perhaps some justification exists. I do not know it, I have not seen it, and I cannot imagine what it would be.

    Hank Roberts, the first two results of the Google search you linked are of the Met Office page. I have already looked through their CET section. The next two results were from a blog. I do not see this helping me any.

    As I said before, I have already looked through the official website for CET. It is possible I missed the information, or it could be buried within a PDF file. I would like to know if what I have read is correct, but I have no reason not to believe it. So for now I will assume 1974 saw the change I described.

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 10:14 pm | Reply

    Dhogza, if you look at the plant hardiness (based off of the worst 5 days of freeze) charts, they have recently gotten warmer, but really only to return to about the level that they were at two generations ago. US SE is well known not to have really warmed like the rest of the globe. If you look at things like Spanish moss, alligator or palmetto extents, they are all not moving up. Bugs me…as I lubs me doze dings.

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 10:21 pm | Reply

    Tammy: I “wiki-ed” that filter. And it says that it does local quintic regressions to get the curves. Tufte (I have a man crush on him) has some harsh things to say about quintic regressions, here:

    http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001Zl

    This is not exactly a point. So don’t get all mad at me. I’m just trying to understand the universe.

    [Response: I looked at the wiki and it says no such thing. A Savitzky-Golay filter does not imply quintic regression, it uses local polynomial regression with the polynomial degree chosen by the user.

    Furthermore, I actually used a *modified* Savitzky-Golay filter because I apply a weighting function of my own design, tailored to minimize the impact of noise on the result. I called it "Savitzky-Golay" without the "modified" because this post is not about filters, so I decided to keep it simple. I'm working on a peer-reviewed publication to introduce my new weighting function.

    Furthermore, I also applied a wavelet filter and a low-pass filter. The results are the same. The very large warming in the last 30 years is real, and shows up just as prominently in all the filters I applied.

    Tufte's comments about quintic fits may rightly apply to the *mis*application of that method, but there's nothing wrong with method in general. And of course that's irrelevant to this analysis, since I didn't use quintic fits.

    You say you're not trying to make a point, but that seems implausible given that you're trying so hard to imply that the dramatic recent warming in CET is somehow an artifact of the chosen filter. It isn't.]

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 10:31 pm | Reply

    Lost, did you read the part I quoted, from that page? Did you read the papers in the References section?

    Tell us what you understood, from reading those papers.

    And tell us what you learned when you used the Feedback link to ask for more information.

    Otherwise, you’re just expressing the same thing as in the last thread, a lack of ability to find facts, and mistrust, and assumptions the problem has to be someone else’s.

    Maybe it’s you.

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 10:39 pm | Reply

    Oh, just for the record, Lost, you write:

    “I would like to know if what I have read is correct, but I have no reason not to believe it.”

    What do you believe? What’s your source? Why do you consider your source reliable?

  • Hank Roberts // April 28, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Reply

    Oh, for the record, there’s an English equivalent of you know what:

    An Englishman’s Castle: Surfacestations.uk
    Jul 27, 2007 … used different stations for daily CETmean than Manley (1974) had used for monthly CET ). Because of these differences in stations, …
    http://www.anenglishmanscastle.com/archives/004389.html -

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Reply

    Ok…I admit it. I’m an evil mole, Tammy. I’m not trying to understand the universe. I just want to drill in Anwar.

    Joking. Seriously, chill man. Yeah, I get that they are different. I just wondered if there might be insight from one to teh other.

    Oh…and actually it doesn’t make me feel better that your smoothing function is home-made and such and you didn’t bother us with teh details, given that’s what I’m interested in.

    [Response: If that's true, then why did you flatly state that the wiki describes a Savitzky-Golay filter as using quintic regression when it says no such thing? Could it be because you had a link to an unflattering opinion of quintic regression? Why did you start commentary on this thread saying that I let the end slopes dictate too much of the rise, and claim it was extrapolation? Why did you then claim that smoothing somehow "pins" the end points and imply that it made the result unreasonable?

    Every one of your questions about smoothing has carried an implication that it's the analysis rather than the data that has created the dramatic recent warming in CET. That's why your claims of purely innocent thirst for knowledge are implausible.]

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 11:14 pm | Reply

    I’m still interested when a moving average is warrented (that omits end points) and when a smooth all the way to the end points is justified. I want to know the principles that dictate the choice. Not just what benefits my evil Ron Paul loving soul.

    [Response: Moving averages have the virtue of utter simplicity, and that their precision is the same over the entire span of estimated values. The main defect is that they don't permit estimation within half a "smoothing interval" of the edge of the data. They also aren't very smooth, as smoothing methods go; note the tiny wiggles in the moving average curve which don't reflect actual changes in the "smoothed" value, just the essential discontinuity of the method.

    Other smoothing methods, all the way to the edge of the data, are just about always "justified." They too can show defects, especially reduced precision (but not reduced accuracy) near the edges. However, for a good method the reduction in precision is limited to a small fraction of the smoothing interval (in this case, just a few years in spite of the 30-year smoothing interval). Different methods have different strengths and weaknesses; a low-pass filter is less susceptible to edge effects but very poor at "turning the corner" when the corner is sharp.

    No smoothing method is perfect. I chose the modified Savitzky-Golay filter because it's what I'm working on (theoretically) at the moment, so it fascinates me.]

  • TCO // April 28, 2008 at 11:55 pm | Reply

    I’m using the Strunk and White method of saying a word that I don’t know how to pronounce LOUD, so that it gets corrected. That and I’m a bloody mary drinking mole.

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 12:00 am | Reply

    Yeh, but our host’s point is you’ve been making him do what should be your work, in this thread — checking your beliefs stated in your postings against your sources, and correcting errors that all fell in the same direction. Clue.

  • cohenite // April 29, 2008 at 12:08 am | Reply

    You mention the early data problems such as whole numbering and periods of estimations; there is a greater problem; Shakespeare may have died before the CET data began but his influence continued on the data collectors; in homage to his Sonnet 18 the collectors applied the following criteria to data adjustment:

    To freeze or not to freeze: That is the question:
    Weather ’tis fav’rable to gain entrophy
    or with such jostlings of outrageous data
    Or to bond, freeing ph seas of enthalpy
    And thus subside PDO? ENSO thus SOI
    No more; and by reducing TSI we end
    Activations of thousand anomalous shocks
    that bases do suffer. ‘Tis interpolation
    Devoutly pursued. To freeze, no melt;
    To melt: perchance to runaway; ay, there’s the rub
    which warms poles that tie so rigidly;
    by such warmth to be dislodged, even boil.

    (With apologies to Craig Carter)

    [Response: Isn't that homage to Hamlet's famous soliliquy, rather than Sonnet 18?]

  • David B. Benson // April 29, 2008 at 12:19 am | Reply

    Another thing which could be done with this data (since 1749 CE) is to look at correlations between the Wolf number

    http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/greenwch/spot_num.txt

    and variations in the CET. I would expect to find essentially no correlation; the variability in TSI implied by sunspot numbers is too small to matter, IMHO.

    But maybe somebody has already done this?

  • Dano // April 29, 2008 at 1:53 am | Reply

    Well, Tamino, it’s obvious Hansen and Algore have corrupted the data, as everyone knows it was warmer…erm…well, sometime in the past.

    Best,

    D

  • cohenite // April 29, 2008 at 2:16 am | Reply

    You are of course right; I should have said they were inspired by sonnet 18.

    “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?

    And summer’s lease hath all too short a date:
    Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven shines,”
    and so on.

  • Lost and Confused // April 29, 2008 at 3:44 am | Reply

    Hank Roberts, I have read the information of station changes on several blogs. I have no reason to believe the posters were lying. There certainly have been station changes within the CET record.

    Quite frankly, I find your post mildly insulting. Why do you use the term “mistrust” to describe skepticism? Why would you say, “And tell us what you learned when you used the Feedback link to ask for more information”? I have never said I used the Feedback line, and you have no reason to believe I used it. This comment is a setup.

    I find it hard to take you seriously when you use tactics like that.

  • TCO // April 29, 2008 at 4:13 am | Reply

    Anyone have a good reference on the use of that filter? What it’s advantages/disadvatnages are? How it works at endpoints? Other usage in time series studies, etc? I did shake my fat ass and do a little work in terms of googling and wikiing. But haven’t really found a good ref. Most of the stuff seems to be either individual usage in certain studies or advice to use this for analyzing light spectra.

    Oh…and before anyone jumps me again, I’m just asking for a ref. Not maligning the polar bears.

  • TCO // April 29, 2008 at 4:14 am | Reply

    I guess I should break down and read the original paper and the better spelled versdion of it…

  • TCO // April 29, 2008 at 4:29 am | Reply

    Tammy, man:

    There are two possible reasons why I said what I did:

    A. (What I think I did) I read your post. Tried to spend a little bit of time thinking about it. Tried to even do a little research (read wiki). When I read wiki, I saw some text talking about fifth derivitives: “The Savitzky-Golay method essentially performs a local polynomial regression (of degree k) on a distribution (of at least k+1 equally spaced points) to determine the smoothed value for each point. Methods are also provided for calculating the first up to the fifth derivatives.” And I just sorta said…hmmm…I had just a couple days ago come acrross Tufte talking about fifthe derivatives. I realized that they were sorta different issues (local smoothing, versus whole spline curve). And also realized that you had shown data (good for you) where that Tufte-fisked pop-writer had not. but I donno…I just kinda locked on the fifthe derivative (which now that I look at it, may not be the same thing as fifth degree polynomal regressions). But I didn’t think that at the time…but I did see this fifth thing. So I just thought I would toss it out there and see if there was any useful insight from your smooth to that regression. It was just sort of a shot in the dark. But heck, I asked about PCA having similarities (in forms of solutions, to particle in a box Schroedinger with having more nodes and having wave functions perpindiucular to eaach toehr and someone at that time told me that the problems have some commonality of the form of the equagtion that dirves what I saw as similar.) So It was just thrown out there for teh discussion.

    The other choice is that I’m evil. Maybe self-deluding myself to think that I’m not.

    Hank says I’m lazy…but that is so, so, mea culpa. I’d be lazy under either of those options.

    but enough with distracting you. consider my knuckles rapped.

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 4:41 am | Reply

    > the information of station changes on
    > several blogs. I have no reason to
    > believe the posters were lying.

    Well, is this a skeptical attitude?

    Which blogs? Who says? Did you read the paper discussing running old and new stations in parallel? Did the people you rely on point that out?

    You can find out if there’s a reason to trust what people say by reading the papers they cite and seeing if they describe them accurately.

    If they don’t cite their sources — well?

  • John Mashey // April 29, 2008 at 7:24 am | Reply

    While I wouldn’t want to be guilty of claiming that similarity of chart appearance proves anything, I do recommend looking at Holzhauser et al, http://www.unige.ch/forel/PapersQG06/Holzhauser2005.pdf
    Figure 2, on Great Aletsch glacier, whose chart of glacier length is more-or-less upside-down version of CET, although the glacier length does the smoothing naturally, has some lag time (~24 years), and of course depends on precipitation, not just temperature.
    Finally, one would expect some differences in sulfate aerosols between Central England and the Alps.

    As for why there might be jiggles, I think Ruddiman’s hypothesis about pandemics is much further developed than it was in “Plows, Plagues and Petroleum”. See the 37-page “The Early Anthropogenic Hypothesis: Challenges and Responses”, Section 10.
    http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006RG000207.shtml
    ($ reqd, sorry).

    Fig 21 shows CO2 deltas computed from pandemics and reforestration estimates, aligned with CO2 concentrations from the Law Dome, i.e. as in:

    ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/antarctica/law/law_co2.txt

    Ruddiman says: “In summary, pandemic-driven reductions in atmospheric Co2 can explain half or more of the ~7ppm drop between 1200 and 1700. Depending on the highly uncertain size of the global mean cooling during this interval, this anthropogenic forcing could account for anywhere in between 16% and 66% of the total cooling.”

    In this case, the relevant pandemic would be the native American one, i.e., Europe’s problems with the Little Ice Age maybe have been partially self-inflicted.

  • sdw // April 29, 2008 at 7:31 am | Reply

    Again the obvious point is missed, and again I will get no response for pointing it out.

    Please look at the derivative of the temperature increase from ~1680 to ~1735. Look at the length of this period of time. What caused the change? What were the forcing factors? Climate sensitivity to what exactly? So temperatures do ‘naturally’ vary wildly and the fact that we are presently near a peak in a short instrumental record is completely irrelevant.

    Yes, it is warming. Is this some scientifically astute observation? It is entirely irrelevant to a sound scientific mind and provides no supporting evidence for the AGW hypothesis.

    I am not saying AGW is not plausible – I have no idea. However I do believe solid science should be readily convincing. The absurdity in quoting a high recent temperature record as supporting evidence for AGW, with these data sets as evidence, is absolutely mind boggling.

    Now if only the rate of temperature change revealed something, anything of interest.

    regards, sdw

  • Julian Flood // April 29, 2008 at 9:06 am | Reply

    quote As the averaging interval gets longer, the size of the “wiggles” in the smoothed data gets smaller. By the time we get to 30-year moving averages, the wiggles are greatly reduced but the signal still remains. This argues for the appropriateness of the “industry standard” 30-year window for climatological means. unquote

    There is, however, a striking and surely important loss of information in the graph just above the words I quote. The ten year smoothing shows an extraordinary leap around the years 1700 to about 1730, about 2.2 degrees of warming. Had I been sitting in Warwick in 1730 and been shown a comparison of my own warming and the 20th century’s 1.6 degrees, I might have pointed out that my own time had much more to worry about.
    But, of course, it was just weather — the thirty year smoothing magics it away. However, I would not have known that at the time and I would have written learned papers about the chances of malaria reappearing on Coney Weston fen.

    Are there no weather signals with a frequency of around 30 years? Or even longer? Look at:
    ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/006/y5028e/y5028e02.pdf
    page 10, the wind speed variation. It looks like half of a sine wave with a length of 90 years. What does a 90 yr smooth look like, and are there other smooths which yield insights?

    (you will no doubt be impressed by my not drawing attention to the notch in the data around 1940.)

    JF

  • Adam // April 29, 2008 at 9:13 am | Reply

    Didn’t Eli post a comment about some of the early CET measurements being made in unheated rooms? This my account for some of those early oddities.

    Philip Eden a wealth of knowledge about the
    CET, the original series, the Hadley changes and Manley’s work. He tracks the current CET based on the original Manley series, which can be used to compare with the Areal series.

    See http://www.climate-uk.com/page5.html
    He’s normally very helpful when asked nicely. I’d recommend a visit.

  • Petro // April 29, 2008 at 9:40 am | Reply

    L and C jerked:

    “Hank Roberts, I have read the information of station changes on several blogs. I have no reason to believe the posters were lying. There certainly have been station changes within the CET record.”

    It would be gerat if you would trust scientific articles even as much as you trust denialists’ websites.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 11:30 am | Reply

    It is clear from your plot that the increase from 1700 to 1730 is larger than from 1975-present. So increases of the magnitude of the recent one can happen for other reasons than CO2.

  • DocMartyn // April 29, 2008 at 12:24 pm | Reply

    My parents grew up in the Midlands in the fourties and fifties. My mother has described how the children used to walk home from school, while all holding hands, under adult supervision. The reason being that smog levels were so high that “you could not see your hand in front of your face”.
    The UK began to tackle air pollution in 1956, with the first of the clean air acts. This started a process where airborne particulates and sulphur oxides, from the burning of coal, were removed from ground level. The smog disappeared rather quickly from that date.
    Moreover, when she grew up, the countryside was country, and the cities were packed. During the past 50 years, with the introduction of cars, the cities have discharged their populations and the green belts that surrounded them are filled by human activity, redbrick, concrete and tarmac.

  • dhogaza // April 29, 2008 at 1:33 pm | Reply

    I have read the information of station changes on several blogs. I have no reason to believe the posters were lying…

    “several blogs” is an interesting cite. I’d love to see that kind of reference where it counts. “Earth is flat [1] …. 1. Several blogs 2. Ibid …”

    Why would you say, “And tell us what you learned when you used the Feedback link to ask for more information”? I have never said I used the Feedback line…

    I think that’s rather the point …

  • Petro // April 29, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Reply

    Leif stated:
    “It is clear from your plot that the increase from 1700 to 1730 is larger than from 1975-present. So increases of the magnitude of the recent one can happen for other reasons than CO2.”

    Are you blind? In smoothed average the increase around 1700 is 1 degree, and from 1975 it is 1,25 degree.

  • Hansen's Bulldog // April 29, 2008 at 2:32 pm | Reply

    Please look at the derivative of the temperature increase from ~1680 to ~1735. Look at the length of this period of time. What caused the change? What were the forcing factors? Climate sensitivity to what exactly? So temperatures do ‘naturally’ vary wildly and the fact that we are presently near a peak in a short instrumental record is completely irrelevant.

    Please look at the derivative of the temperature increase from last night to this afternoon. Or from last January to this January. Or from the 1998 el Nino to the 1999 la Nina.

    It’s important to distinguish between natural fluctuations which don’t persist and unnatural changes which do persist. On a 30-year time scale — the standard for climatological means — your argument fails.

    And of course, your premise is based on data taken before the invention of the alcohol thermometer, let alone the mercury thermometer, and before the definition of the Fahrenheit scale, let alone the Celsius scale. How accurate do you think such conclusions are?

    The ten year smoothing shows an extraordinary leap around the years 1700 to about 1730, about 2.2 degrees of warming. Had I been sitting in Warwick in 1730 and been shown a comparison of my own warming and the 20th century’s 1.6 degrees, I might have pointed out that my own time had much more to worry about. But, of course, it was just weather — the thirty year smoothing magics it away.

    The one-year averages show an extraordinary drop from 1733 to 1740, fully 3.7 deg.C. Had I been in Warwick in 1740 and been ignorant of the difference between weather and climate … But of course, doing any smoothing at all just “magics” it away…

    It’s important to distinguish between natural fluctuations which don’t persist and unnatural changes which do persist. On a 30-year time scale — the standard for climatological means — your argument fails.

    And of course, your premise is based on data taken before the invention of the alcohol thermometer, let alone the mercury thermometer, and before the definition of the Fahrenheit scale, let alone the Celsius scale. How accurate do you think such conclusions are?

    It is clear from your plot that the increase from 1700 to 1730 is larger than from 1975-present. So increases of the magnitude of the recent one can happen for other reasons than CO2.

    It’s clear from the thermometer that the increase from midnight last night to noon today is much larger than anything in any of the plots given. So increases vastly greater than anthing in the smoothed plots can happen for reasons other than CO2.

    But of course that just illustrates that we cannot draw valid conclusions based on cherry picking the start and end points at temporary extremes.

    And of course, your premise is based on data taken before the invention of the alcohol thermometer, let alone the mercury thermometer, and before the definition of the Fahrenheit scale, let alone the Celsius scale. How accurate do you think such conclusions are?

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 2:45 pm | Reply

    > several blogs

    ” … cut and paste the address for the exact page where the information was found and the date of retrieval. [But keep in mind that "I found it on the internet" may not make the information any more reliable than "I heard it from some guy in a bar."]”
    http://www.umaine.edu/history/stylesheet.htm

  • cce // April 29, 2008 at 3:03 pm | Reply

    Using the convention that AGW started in 1975, and taking the data at face value, the rate of warming exceeded modern times during a cluster of 33 year periods starting in the late 1600s. However, it’s likely that modern warming will exceed this in within a decade.

    http://cce.890m.com/cet-33-trends.jpg

    The last 10 years are about 0.6 degrees warmer than any comparable time in the series however, so the magnitude of the warmth is “unprecedented,” and within 0.2 degrees of the peak of Lamb’s MWP (using 50 year averages).

    http://cce.890m.com/lamb-updated.jpg

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 3:11 pm | Reply

    Petro, look at the real data [5th and 6th plot in Tamino's post] that shows yearly averages. A 30-year smoothing of the last 30 years is a poor representation of the truth.

    [Response: I disagree. In fact, I think your statement is foolish.]

  • Lost and Confused // April 29, 2008 at 3:11 pm | Reply

    In a somewhat unsurprising event, I found the information I wanted in the first pdf file I opened from the CET website (Parker et al. 2005). From their Table 1, the CET monthly mean series switched to a different set of temperature stations in 1974. After 1974, the ones in use were Rothamsted, Malvern, Squires Gate and Ringway (the last two averaged together). None of these were used in the series before.

    At a cursory look, I do not see how the CET can be considered a “continuous” series. It completely switched which stations were used, and a new trend appeared.

    Maybe the CET is a meaningful series. I do not know. I do know the average reader will feel quite differently if told the most important trend in the graph appeared only after completely altering the source of data.

  • Dano // April 29, 2008 at 3:11 pm | Reply

    Lost and Confused purveys FUD thusly:

    Quite frankly, I find your post mildly insulting**… [t]his comment is a setup…I find it hard to take you seriously when you use tactics like that.

    HTH display the FUD purveyance tactics and the similiarly-structured research agenda for focus-grouping questions and framing testing done by ‘Lost and Confused’.

    It’s perfectly fine to reveal for others the holes in the tactics of L&C, but let’s not help them along by giving them the answers they seek to test.

    Best,

    D

    *’confused’ is, of course, part of the ‘U’ in FUD. Tactics, folks. He’s sowing doubt and testing how well it grows.

    ** this victim tactic is the ‘F’ in FUD. Tactics, folks. He’s playing the poorpoor victim to elicit sympathy.

  • george // April 29, 2008 at 3:13 pm | Reply

    TCO,

    RE: savitzky-Golay:

    If you are using Savitzky-Golay for just smoothing, you use a version that does not take any derivative — though there are versions of the filter that do take a particular (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) derivative at the same time that they do smoothing.

    The degree of the filter is just the degree of the polynomial used to “fit” the curve in question in the neighborhood of a given point, centered on that point.

    HB:
    Practically speaking, (ie, for real world purposes), why would anyone ever want to calculate a 5th derivative? (referred to in the wiki article with regard to Savitzgy-Golay)
    Is there some case for which there is a physical meaning to be attached to the 5th derivative?

    I could be wrong (have been before once of twice), but I would think that the noise at that derivative level (even using a filter like Savitzgy-golay) would pretty much wash out the signal.

    [Response: I don't know of any case in which it's necessary to estimate the 5th derivative, or why one would want to.]

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 3:17 pm | Reply

    HB:

    But of course that just illustrates that we cannot draw valid conclusions based on cherry picking the start and end points at temporary extremes.

    If we calculate the 30-year trend for every year and slide it along from 1659 to the present, then tabulate the trends and ask if the recent trend is highly unusual, the answer would be that it is not, as similar trends have occurred in the past. Thus no cherry-picking needed, except perhaps for picking 1975-present.

    [Response: You're the one who pronounced a dramatic change from 1700 (a temporary minimum) to 1730 (a temporary maximum), neither of which represents a persistent change. It's no better than computing a trend from an el Nino to a la Nina. Cherry-picking.]

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 3:30 pm | Reply

    HB:

    And of course, your premise is based on data taken before the invention of the alcohol thermometer, let alone the mercury thermometer, and before the definition of the Fahrenheit scale, let alone the Celsius scale. How accurate do you think such conclusions are?

    As accurate as your conclusion based on the same data that the recent temps are the highest or have the largest increase.

    [Response: Do you REALLY think that conclusions based on data before the invention of the alcohol or mercury thermometers, and before the definition of the Fahrenheit or Celsius scales, are as accurate as conclusions drawn from 20th-century measurements?

    Do you REALLY think that smoothing on a 30-year time scale is not a proper approach to define climate?

    Don't equivocate -- just say "yes" or "no."]

  • John Mashey // April 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm | Reply

    I knew people were going to worry about those early jiggles, and of course measurement errors and natural effects were likely to be present.

    BUT, from the Ruddiman paper I mentioned earlier:

    “An estimated 80-90% of the pre-Columbian population (50-60 million people) dies between 1500 and 1750, with the highet losses probably occurring in the 1500s.” By adding up various specific cases, he estimates ~13.8 Gigatons of C sequestered via reforestration. Given the lag times between people dying and reforestration, what you’d expect is a dip in CO2 towards the end of the 1500s, as forests re-establish themselves, and then later, get back into steady-state. Then, after a while, European settlers start cutting enough trees to be noticeable.

    From the Law Dome records:

    From 1006 to 1570, CO2 usually stayed above 280ppm, with two points below (279.4 in 1006 and 279.6 in 1465). and an average of 281.8. Then:

    1589 278.7
    1604 274.3
    1647 277.2
    1679 275.9

    1794 281.6 (first time back above 280.0)

    Now, it *could* be an accident that the biggest drop in CO2 in the last 1000 years just happens coincide with the reforestration from the biggest die-off in human history…

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 3:57 pm | Reply

    me:

    If we calculate the 30-year trend for every year and slide it along from 1659 to the present, then tabulate the trends and ask if the recent trend is highly unusual, the answer would be that it is not, as similar trends have occurred in the past. Thus no cherry-picking needed, except perhaps for picking 1975-present.

    I actually did this, the result is here: http://www.leif.org/research/CET1.png
    Too bad I cannot show the graph inline for its visual impact.

  • Phil. // April 29, 2008 at 4:02 pm | Reply

    Leif,
    “It is clear from your plot that the increase from 1700 to 1730 is larger than from 1975-present. So increases of the magnitude of the recent one can happen for other reasons than CO2.”

    Indeed, perhaps it was getting too cold to keep going outside so he moved his thermometer indoors.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 4:23 pm | Reply

    HB: I do REALLY think that stopping the smoothing curve in 1993 and that the 30-year average centered on that year is a definition of the climate for that interval. Your red curve extrapolated past that is not.
    As to the first question: it is silly in the extreme and should have phrased whether the data is good enough for the conclusions we draw and if they are corroborated by other evidence [LIA etc].

    [Response: Ignoring all smoothed values beyond 1993 is closing your eyes to the warming which has happened since then. I suspect that you'd like nothing better than to ignore warming after 1993, or would you rather simply deny that it's happened? And EVEN IF we do stop 30-yr averages in 1993, it's still 0.49 deg.C warmer than anything prior to the 20th century.

    As for the first question, rather than make yourself look like a fool by saying "yes," or retracting your foolish claim by saying "no," you try to change the question! And the stuff about the LIA is silly in the extreme. The LIA was not a brief temperature decrease, nor was it a brief temperature increase, so how does it "corroborate" a brief drop in temperature followed by a brief temperature increase above average? It doesn't.

    You've gone to some length to refute "my claim" that recent temperatures in the CET "have the largest increase." Now let's see whether you're even *capable* of giving a straight answer to a simple question: where did I make that claim?]

  • Thomas Huxley // April 29, 2008 at 4:41 pm | Reply

    We have used a rather diverse set of stations to build on Manley’s work and create a daily mean CET series for 1772 to date. Our daily series is one of the longest available, but it cannot at present be based on an entirely satisfactory set of stations. This is unfortunate …. The uncertainties involved in the replacement of Stonyhurst and the evidence for urban warming at several of our stations, leads us to stress the importance of the establishment of guaranteed reference stations for monitoring climatic variability and change….

    This is the conclusion from Parker Legg & Folland (IJC 1992).

    Suggest that the whole paper is essential reading for this thread (takes a while to download though)

  • dhogaza // April 29, 2008 at 4:41 pm | Reply

    Indeed, perhaps it was getting too cold to keep going outside so he moved his thermometer indoors.

    You’re forgetting that the early instrumental record, while too imprecise to support a “hockey stick”, are precise enough to prove a worldwide MWP and that today’s warming has a historical precedent … :)

  • steven mosher // April 29, 2008 at 5:33 pm | Reply

    Tammy, I rarely go to the extremes of calling someone foolish. And I am class 1 jerk. So I was a bit suprised to see you call Dr. S foolish. But
    your choice.

    You invent a method that has not been published, that you could document here, but you choose not to. So, filter schmilter. No body can really assess your method, or modification without the facts. It draws smooth lines. We all see that. Shrugs. looking forward to the paper.
    Hopefully it will advance things.

    Anyway, the world is getting warmer, man is the cause. But you need to chill a bit dude. Take that from an angry white guy who knows. All that said, I did like your post. I was especially drawn to the point where your talked about these things.

    1. Early Measurements only recorded to 1 deg accurracy. That would describe all the measurements in the USHCN since 1880.
    It wouldnt seem to me that taking 60 measures
    per month at 1C resolution, would be much of
    problem. Given our previous discussion of
    the matter.

    2. Filling in missing data. We should talk about this WRT to GISS. on a monthly and global scale
    what percentage of GISS USA monthly data do you suppose is missing and infilled? Is there a better way to infill than is currently used?

    Sometimes I think if you where just writing about data ( without saying its temperature) that people would not get so wrapped around the axel. FWIW

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 5:40 pm | Reply

    Most of you know this, but for anyone who doesn’t, a famous article

    http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/55905/page/3;jsessionid=baa9...

    gives some perspective on how temperatures were being measured in the late 1700s

    —–excerpt——
    … Figure 2 shows the locations of the Madison Montpelier plantation, Jefferson’s Monticello and the closest nearby modern stations where high-quality daily weather records have been routinely kept for decades. Figure 3 compares the difference between 4:00 p.m. and sunrise data observed by Jefferson as well as by Madison for the month of June, to the average values of hourly data from Charlottesville (the nearby modern station that has the most complete hourly series of data).

    click for full image and caption
    Figure 4. The northeast portico of Monticello

    The siting of Madison’s instrument inside the home before 1787 (irrespective of the lighting of fire) clearly greatly reduced the morning-to-afternoon changes in the data compared to outdoor values: The indoor morning data were much warmer than the outside air temperature, and the afternoon data decidedly cooler, so that the range in temperature through the course of the day was greatly reduced by the thermal lag of the home.

    After noticing that the data were inconsistent with the occurrence of ice and taking the bold step of moving the instrument outdoors to the box on the porch in 1787, Madison’s morning and afternoon observations are dramatically different, and the morning-to-afternoon changes immediately approach modern outdoor data…..
    —–end excerpt——

  • Phil. // April 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm | Reply

    dhogaza, you’re right! Actually siting the thermometer in a North facing room without a fire was recommended practice from ~1723 – 1760.

    http://www.rmets.org/pdf/qj74manley.pdf
    Also essential reading (that means you too Leif)

  • sod // April 29, 2008 at 6:18 pm | Reply

    great post as always.

    and i just love how every single of their replies exposes the denialists as completely incompetent.

  • dhogaza // April 29, 2008 at 6:20 pm | Reply

    Filling in missing data. We should talk about this WRT to GISS. on a monthly and global scale
    what percentage of GISS USA monthly data do you suppose is missing and infilled? Is there a better way to infill than is currently used?

    You do realize there’s a difference between algorithmic interpolation and simply copying past data?

    The first gives you sharp photos when you double or triple the size of an original image in photoshop, for instance. Interpolation of data can be a very effective technique.

    While simply copying data … well, a friend of mine, working for the EPA, was reviewing lake temperature data for a very large lake up near the canadian border, trying to get a handle on the effect of spilling water from the reservoir on downstream temperatures (important issue for salmon, among other things).

    A tribe had contracted to perform the data collection, and further subcontracted it out to others.

    She had me look at a graph of temps taken weekly for several years, and various depths.

    Asking me, “see anything unusual? Please tell me this can’t be!”. And, indeed, there was about a five year stretch where temps at various depths (every 10m, 20m something like that, repeated down to 100m or so) were *identical* each day.

    No thermal layering etc. In stark contrast to the data taken before or after.

    Well, the solution’s simple, of course. Some lazy-assed subcontractor took their first (say 10m depth) measurement, and simply copied the value for each of the other depths he or she was supposed to measure.

    And it wasn’t caught until years after the person left that job.

    Moral here is that COPYING data in this way, and INTERPOLATION, as is done for various datasets today, have nothing in common. Mentioning them together in the same post is just wrong.

    Early Measurements only recorded to 1 deg accurracy.

    I guarantee you that those measurements were not recorded to 1C accuracy.

    Do you know why?

  • David B. Benson // April 29, 2008 at 6:22 pm | Reply

    Dano // April 29, 2008 at 1:53 am — Yes, it was warmer in the past. The far distant past, say 7600 ypb.

    I’ll have more to post about this, relating it to the temperatures of the last 2000 years, Ruddiman’s thesis and all that, later today.

  • george // April 29, 2008 at 6:39 pm | Reply

    Leif Svalgaard

    “A 30-year smoothing of the last 30 years is a poor representation of the truth.”

    I can’t remember the title of the specific paper, but I read a paper on Savitzgy-Golay once that determined the optimum filter size for that filter and it turns out to have a full width that is between 1-2 times the FWHM of the “features” one is most interested in looking at in the data.

    I have used that filter quite a bit in the past for spectroscopic applications and I know from practical experience that this is a pretty good rule of thumb.

    Features with width less than this will be smoothed out (ie, lose definition) and those with width equal or greater will still remain.

    It therefore makes some sense (to me, at least) that if one is looking for temperature changes that happen on time scales 30 years or greater (ie, climate changes) that one would use a Savitzgy-Golay filter with about that size. This would tend to smooth out El Nino, volcanic eruptions and other short term effects and leave the climate signal intact.

  • Bill Bodell // April 29, 2008 at 7:34 pm | Reply

    Didn’t Eli post a comment about some of the early CET measurements being made in unheated rooms? This my account for some of those early oddities.

    Sounds like Open Mind’s version of Watts, searching for explanations of tempurature observations they don’t want to believe.

  • Bill Bodell // April 29, 2008 at 7:35 pm | Reply

    Ooops, my blockquote didn’t work. Should be quotes around the 1st paragraph.

  • Bill Bodell // April 29, 2008 at 7:37 pm | Reply

    dhogaza,

    The metric system?

    Check out the big brain on Brad.

  • dhogaza // April 29, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Reply

    The metric system?

    Actually the Celsius scale was older but not old enough :) Wikipedia says 1742 IIRC but reversed (0 boiling, 100 freezing)

    But, it was the big brain on Mosher, not Brad, I wanted to check out :)

    (great line from a great movie, though!)

  • Lost and Confused // April 29, 2008 at 7:55 pm | Reply

    Apparently until approximately 1770 temperatures were read from unheated rooms Bill Bodell. I believe it is discussed in Parker (1992) as a reason for starting their station comparisons in 1772.

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 8:01 pm | Reply

    I want to thank Phil. for the link and recommendation:
    http://www.rmets.org/pdf/qj74manley.pdf
    Also essential reading

    And second the nomination. It’s a reminder that we are just a few centuries into the use of science as a way of understanding nature — out of several thousands of years of history and tens of thousands of years of prehistory as a species, it’s just been these few hundred years that observation, recordkeeping, and the scientific method were done.

    The link is well worth a serious read, partly just as a reminder that we are only a few generations beyond the very beginning of the work — it’s humbling and inspiring to read what the beginnings were like, so few years ago.

    Small candle. Big darkness. Hope.

  • Phil. // April 29, 2008 at 8:20 pm | Reply

    dhogaza

    “I guarantee you that those measurements were not recorded to 1C accuracy.”

    Agreed, some were to the nearest inch as I recall. ;)

  • Frank O'Dwyer // April 29, 2008 at 8:55 pm | Reply

    David P. Benson,

    “Yes, it was warmer in the past. The far distant past, say 7600 ypb.”

    Interesting – Hansen has a paper out yesterday which states that we are at or near the peak of the entire Holocene (12000 yrs).

    The paper is here:
    http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/StateOfWild_20080428.pdf

    The reference cited in support is this:
    http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/39/14288

  • Hans Erren // April 29, 2008 at 9:00 pm | Reply

    a link to the CET data in your post would be useful
    http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcet/data/download.html

  • Dave Andrews // April 29, 2008 at 9:14 pm | Reply

    Hey,

    The people in the 17th and 18th Centuries did the best they could with the technology available to them.

    Bit like surface temperature measurements in the 2oth/21st Centuries actually. There are all kinds of problems with those measurements so why not investigate something a tad more relevant now rather than dumping on people in the past?

  • luminous beauty // April 29, 2008 at 9:21 pm | Reply

    Until the 1720s or so, Fahrenheit was calibrating thermometers by sticking them under his armpit.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 9:22 pm | Reply

    HB: You said: “It’s now clear that the recent rise in temperature is unlike anything seen in the more accurate part of the CET record. It’s also much warmer than anything seen in the entire CET record”
    Petro said: “Are you blind? In smoothed average the increase around 1700 is 1 degree, and from 1975 it is 1,25 degree.” and you did not disagree with him [something you are quick to do with, e.g. my stuff].

    But let that slide. The real deception comes in when you claim that the ‘red’ [smoothed] data point is 2007 or 2008 is an accurate representation of the 30-year climate centered on 2007. and that therefore the rise from 1975 to 2007 is the largest in the ‘good’ part of the record [1895 to 1945 is larger]. nobody has ANY idea of what the true climatic 30-year average will be for any of the years since 1993. You can, of course, claim that you fervently believe that the curve will keep going up, and that cannot be denied.

    [Response: I asked you where I made the claim that recent tamperatures in the CET "have the largest increase." I dared you to give a straight answer. Rather than simply have the decency to admit that you were mistaken, you chose to point a finger at someone else and criticize me for not disagreeing with him. How childish.

    Consider your statement that "nobody has ANY idea of what the true climatic 30-year average will be for any of the years since 1993." The 30-year average centered on 1993.0 is 0.7178. Of the individual years since 1994, only *one* of them has had an annual average lower than that. Seven of the ten hottest years in the entire CET record have occured after 1993. So we do in fact have a *very good* idea what the 30-year average will be for 2008: a lot warmer than 1993. For an unbiased, objective, and simple estimate of the long-term trend value in 2008, take the last 30 years of data, fit a straight line, then compute the value of the regression line in 2008. Result: 1.49. It's certainly not a perfect estimate of the 30-year smoothed value in 2008, but it's a good one. Your claim that "nobody has ANY idea" isn't just false, it's idiotic.

    You make that claim because you really do want to "wish away" the warming since 1993. That's the only way you can maintain your belief that the rise from 1895 to 1945 is greater than that from 1975 to the present.]

  • David B. Benson // April 29, 2008 at 9:39 pm | Reply

    John Mashey // April 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm — A very good
    observation regarding anthropogenic influences. Your post,
    and this thread generally, prompted me to revisit the GISP2
    Central Greenland temperature records for the Holocene, this
    time with 1000 year averages divided into 5 bins of 0.323 K
    each [I've annotated with some events from prehistory]. The
    millennia end at the date shown:

    bin04 @ 9100 ypb (wall built around Jericho)
    bin03 @ 8100 ypb (canoe in The Netherlands)
    bin04 @ 7100 ypb (sea level +2 m)
    bin03 @ 6100 ypb (Neolithic culture in Britian)
    bin03 @ 5100 ypb (Otzi, the Ötztaler glacier man dies; sea level +1 m)
    bin02 @ 4100 ypb (Stonehenge started and completed.)
    bin04 @ 3100 ypb (Drought in Middle East; first climate wars.)
    bin03 @ 2100 ypb (Influenza epidemics in Greece)
    bin01 @ 850 CE
    bin00 @ 1850 CE

    From 7100 ypb on, the average temperature ought to drop
    about 0.5 bins per millennia as the orbital forcing effect
    continues to decline towards the next attempt at a stade
    in about more 20,000 years. This trend line fits fairly well
    except for the millennia ending 3100 and 2100 ybp, both
    well above the trend line. Both millenia figure heavily
    in the prehistory of the middle east, with the first empire,
    that of the Akkadians, destroyed about 4000 ypb and the
    destruction of Jericho about 3500 ypb.

    The current temperature appears to lie in bin02.

  • Thomas Huxley // April 29, 2008 at 9:46 pm | Reply

    Phil: Re the
    Manley 1974 paper
    . Agree with Hank. Inspiring stuff. Must have been then and still is now. Definitely a must read!

  • Dave Andrews // April 29, 2008 at 9:50 pm | Reply

    Oops!

    That should be the ” people in the 18th and 19th Centuries”

  • Hank Roberts // April 29, 2008 at 10:06 pm | Reply

    Repeat after me:

    England is not the entire world.
    England is not the entire world.
    England is not the entire world.

    Once you get that down, step two:

    Greenwich is an _arbitrary_ zero….

  • David B. Benson // April 29, 2008 at 10:28 pm | Reply

    Frank O’Dwyer // April 29, 2008 at 8:55 pm — Thank you for the links! I’ve been using the GISP2 Central Greenalnd data, where reasonably good connections to extreme global palsotemperatures and modern northern hemisphere temperatures exist. Based on those, and the amount of warming per decade seen so far, it seems that there is still a few decades until mid-Holocene extremes are reached.

    This also appears to agree with the melting of the Greenland ice sheet now and various observations and reconstructions for the mid-Holocene.

    That said, it is clear that even if the temperature does not rise much further, the resulting changes in precipitation are going to be unconducive to agriculture in most regions. This is in good agreement with a wide variety of paleoclimate indicators and archaeological studies of the prehistoric periods.

    The temperature matters less than the precipitation patterns, but these can be determined fairly well from a knowledge of both global and regional temperatures.

  • dhogaza // April 29, 2008 at 10:34 pm | Reply

    The people in the 17th and 18th Centuries did the best they could with the technology available to them.

    Bit like surface temperature measurements in the 2oth/21st Centuries actually. There are all kinds of problems with those measurements so why not investigate something a tad more relevant now rather than dumping on people in the past?

    They’re not being “dumped on”, their measurements are being discounted as being less accurate than today’s.

    And regarding recent data, how can you say “why not investigate something a tad more relevant now ” as though no one does, when NASA has been doing so for years?

    It’s *your* side of the denialist divide that denies that investigation and analysis can allow us to glean useful information from that imperfect 20th and 21st century data.

    That’s why we call folks like you “denialists”, after all …

  • Phil. // April 29, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Reply

    Thanks Hank.

    “The link is well worth a serious read, partly just as a reminder that we are only a few generations beyond the very beginning of the work — it’s humbling and inspiring to read what the beginnings were like, so few years ago.”

    I agree, I used to haev students in my thermo class read Humphrey Davy’s account of his development of the miner’s safety lamp in the Proc. Roy. Soc. It’s a great narrative about how in response to a visit by mine owners to the Royal Society he visited the mines
    , assessed the problem, conducted some experiments on the propagation of flames through metal gauzes and designed a lamp in a very short time.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 29, 2008 at 11:26 pm | Reply

    HB: “So we do in fact have a *very good* idea what the 30-year average will be for 2008: a lot warmer than 1993.”.
    This is assuming that the next fifteen years will not have a strong negative anomaly [say of -1C each].

  • TCO // April 29, 2008 at 11:28 pm | Reply

    One thing that’s interesting is that if you eliminate the old data (truncate before 1800), it no longer becomes a story of remarkable warming versus a 400 year series. But just versus 200. This is still interesting, for instance if the CET is being used by denialists, in that we deny them the argument. However, we can’t ourselves both point to the length of the series as making it remarkable and then truncate most of it.

    Feel free to rap the knuckles for the “we” or the “denialists”. I’m just thinking out loud, not launching a PR campaign.

  • TCO // April 29, 2008 at 11:29 pm | Reply

    Oh…and “most” is incorrect as it’s I don’t know 40% that is truncated.

  • David B. Benson // April 29, 2008 at 11:45 pm | Reply

    Here is data for a Europe reconstruction:

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/casty2007/casty2007.html

    entitled “A European pattern climatology 1766-2000″

  • DocMartyn // April 30, 2008 at 12:33 am | Reply

    L.S. I have had a look at the UK data record in the past. What I found most odd was the rate of change in the average temperature of diffent months. For instance, June gives the smallest rise in temperature over the time period, and March the greatest. What is very puzzling is the bimodal changes in the rate of temperature change over the course of the year. It is a fingerprint of something, but what I don’t know.
    May I suggest you have a look at the monthly averages using a similar plot to that you used for your yearly average.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 12:45 am | Reply

    DocM: “May I suggest you have a look at the monthly averages using a similar plot to that you used for your yearly average.”
    That is a good, constructive idea. So that would be twelve plots, with, of course, a greater error and scatter, but we can always have a look.

  • Alan Woods // April 30, 2008 at 1:10 am | Reply

    DocM, Leif. For monthly plots (although not totally up-to-date), see:

    http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/climon/data/cet/

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 1:29 am | Reply

    Josh April 29th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
    over at lucia’s has this to say [coming to a similar conclusion as I, perhaps being as big a fool and idiot]:
    “But we can find the magnitude of the PDO in the temperature data. Notice that at least visually, the slope of the temperature data from about 1910-1945 seems to match very closely with the temperature data from about 1975-present. And similarly, the slope from about 1880-1910 seems very close to the slope from 1945-1975. [In fact, if you take the slope from ~1910 to ~1943, you get a slope of ~1.6*/C, and if you take the slope from ~1975-~2004, you get a slope of ~1.8*/C. Similarly, if you take the slope from 1943 to 1975, you get a slope of 0.07*/C, while taking a visually similar period from 1880-1910, you get a slope of -.65*/C]. It’s interesting that when climatologists see a temperature drop from 1945-1975, they determine it is aerosol cooling, even though there is a very similar 30yr period with a similar downward trend – and it’s 30yrs earlier, no less. Similarly, they see a positive 30yr trend in the early part of the century – and call it natural – and then see another positive 30yr trend – 30yrs later – with a similar trend and call it global warming. To me, when I start seeing the same alternating trends repeating at regular intervals, that’s a sin wave.

    Unfortunately, there aren’t any standard techniques that I’m aware of for determining a best-fit sinusoid. So I wrote a simple genetic program that basically finds it by trial and error. After a few hours, it converges to some very similar sinusoids, the best of which is:

    y = +4.00e-01*sin((x +4.29e+01) * 2pi/335.70) +1.03e-01*sin((x +6.09e+01) * 2pi/62.07)

    where y is the temperature anomaly, x is the date in years (e.g. 1910.5 is June, 1910, etc.). The period of the sin is the part in the denominator (335.7 yrs, etc.). A plot of this sinusoid is here: http://picasaweb.google.com/jg…..7291716402 with the best fit (red), the temp data (blue) and the residual (cyan).

    The 335 yr period is probably bogus because there are only 150yrs of data. But the 62 year period is probably fairly meaningful. And note that the period lines up pretty closely with the 20-30yr PDO. And the magnitude is roughly 0.1 deg (0.2 deg peak-to-peak). And even the phase seems about right from your graph of the PDO – the local maxima/minima are in 1948 and 1964 respectively, probably about 5 years behind the corresponding point in the PDO (which might make sense given heat stored in the oceans, etc.).”

    [Response: Where do I begin?

    The trend in HadCRUT3v from 1880 to 1910 is -0.007 +/ 0.004. The trend from 1943 to 1975 is +0.001 +/- 0.004. Yes, positive, although it's indistinguishable from zero. For GISS, the 1880-1910 trend is -0.001 +/- 0.004 (indistinguishable from zero) and the 1943-1975 trend -0.001 +/- 0.004 (again indistinguishable from zero).

    The statement "when climatologists see a temperature drop from 1945-1975, they determine it is aerosol cooling" indicates both arrogance and ignorance of the facts. First, neither HadCRUT3v nor GISSTEMP indicates any statistically significant cooling during that time. Second, the cooling effect of anthropogenic aerosol emissions is very real, unless you think the legislation enacted in the 1970s to reduce sulfate emissions because of the severity of "acid rain" was just a ploy by congress to support a future global warming fraud, or that sulfate aerosols don't cause climate cooling.

    Climate scientists do *not* call the trend from 1910 to 1943 entirely natural. It's partly due to lower-than-average volcanic activity during that time period and *possibly* an increase in solar output, but it's also partly due to increasing greenhouse gases.

    There are in fact standard techniques for determining a best-fit sinusoid. The best 2-period fit to GISS includes periods of 500 yr and 73 yr, for HadCRUT3v it includes periods 520 yr and 64 yr. Of course the 500/520 yr period is bogus. Guess what? So is the 73/64 yr period. Ever hear of "red noise"?

    EVEN IF we allow that a 73/64/62 yr period is real (which it isn't), and EVEN IF we attribute it to PDO (which I don't), it still doesn't explain the *secular increase* in global temperature from 1880 to 2008. That increase is about 0.7 deg.C, three and a half times as large as the 0.2 deg.C amplitude of the supposed PDO "period." And in case you weren't aware, periodic fluctuations don't show secular increase.

    Your amateurish attempts at time series analysis are an embarrassment. Your eagerness to fall hook line and sinker for the first crackpot theory to come along is ...]

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 2:12 am | Reply

    Alan: as expected, the noise is larger. Maybe cherry-picking the seasons and doing those separately might be illuminating without being too noisy.

  • dhogaza // April 30, 2008 at 2:20 am | Reply

    Short summary of the above would seem to be that natural variation exists therefore CO2 can’t be causing warming. Climate scientists are well aware of the first bit. The second bit doesn’t follow.

    So, Leif, where’s the energy going? Or is the basic physics regarding CO2 and IR wrong? Someone fudged the lab work? What’s your hypothesis?

  • cce // April 30, 2008 at 2:39 am | Reply

    I don’t like this rhetoric, and I’m a pretty snide person. It diminishes the argument.

    Here’s the bottom line (according to me):
    1) Tamino’s statements regarding the rate of warming only referred to the “high quality” data.
    2) The rate of warming is close to, but not quite, the fastest of any relevent time period in the series.
    3) The only period of time that shows faster warming is from the least reliable part of the data.
    4) The warmest period in the series is today, and it is warmer by a substantial amount.
    5) If you believe that warming is likely to continue into the future (as I am sure most of us do), then the smoothed data represents a fairly good approximation of warming up to and including March 2008. However, if you are a skeptic who believes that AGW has not been sufficiently established, then the smoothed graph is not proper evidence because it assumes warming will continue. If the point is to debunk the arguments of “skeptics”, a built in assumption of future warming should not be included.

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 3:08 am | Reply

    Leif, is it correct that everything after the open quotation mark there:

    “But we can …

    (all the way to the end at the close quotation mark, end of posting)

    Is your quotation of something from
    “Josh April 29th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
    over at lucia’s” — not your writing?

    And you’re saying what, exactly?

    Seems, well, odd to hang someone else up here to be dissected. No?

    is your quote from someone else, right?

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 3:13 am | Reply

    HB and dhog: First about the ~60 year period. This paper is just out:
    GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 35, L08715, doi:10.1029/2008GL033611, 2008
    Recent global sea level acceleration started over 200 years ago?
    S. Jevrejeva, et al.
    Abstract
    We present a reconstruction of global sea level (GSL) since 1700 calculated from tide gauge records and analyse the evolution of global sea level acceleration during the past 300 years. We provide observational evidence that sea level acceleration up to the present has been about 0.01 mm/yr2 and appears to have started at the end of the 18th century. Sea level rose by 6 cm during the 19th century and 19 cm in the 20th century. Superimposed on the long-term acceleration are quasi-periodic fluctuations with a period of about 60 years. If the conditions that established the acceleration continue, then sea level will rise 34 cm over the 21st century. Long time constants in oceanic heat content and increased ice sheet melting imply that the latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimates of sea level are probably too low.

    It seems that these people could also benefit from a lecture about red noise. I was quoting Josh’s comment, because it was also obvious to him [so, Petro, I'm not blind] that there has been similar increases in the [even] recent past. The long term trend could be due to many things, even have a CO2 contribution, [although probably not solar]. What causes what is not established. I have never said that it was not CO2, just that the observational evidence for CO2 is weak as there has been similar increases not caused by CO2. For all I care, the CO2-related rise could be twice as big as observed 1975-present, but is riding on top of a deep decline in temperature, to give us the smallish rise we have seen several times before.

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 3:32 am | Reply

    Hank, yes, as I clearly indicated everything was a quote. And if you do not already know, “lucia’s” is here: http://rankexploits.com/musings/ .
    And what is wrong with pointing out that something is so visually obvious that others can see it too? What do the details of the sine-curve fitting matter? And the specific numbers – as long as they are in ballpark? The conclusion is the same. And, if you post something anywhere, you always expose yourself to be quoted. The dissection bit is the Bulldog’s joy, not mine.

    [Response: You say "I have never said that it was not CO2," but the implication oozes from just about every comment you make. You imply that climate scientists attribute every non-warming to natural causes while calling every warming man-made *just because it's a warming*. The implication is abundantly clear, and it's astoundingly insulting to the folks who are *your peers*. But you say "I was quoting Josh's comment," as though that absolves you of any responsibility for repeating a slander. You try to refute the lack of evidence for a 60-ish year period in 130 years of temperature data by referring to a 60-ish year quasi-period in 300 years of sea level data. You make the insulting snide comment "It seems that these people could also benefit from a lecture about red noise," as though I've denied the existence of a 60-ish year period, quasi or otherwise, in any data set for any physical quantity at all. You criticize me for not contradicting someone else, in an attempt to imply that I'm picking on you. You refute "my claim" that the warming rate in CET over the last 30 years is greater than at any previous time, when I made no such claim at all; the only reference I made to rate is that since 1980 it's 0.05 deg.C/yr and if that continues central England is headed for unprecendented territory.

    As for something being "so visually obvious that others can see it too," that's why we invented statistics.

    Your understanding is feeble, your implications are unprofessional, your attitude is supremely arrogant, and your attempt to avoid responsibility for what you yourself have posted here is despicable. Is that plain enough?]

  • Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 4:09 am | Reply

    cce: The CET plot was supposed [I presume] to represent observations [although Tamino -truth be told - never uses that word; calls it an 'instrumental record']. One of your points was:
    “5) If you believe that warming is likely to continue into the future (as I am sure most of us do), then the smoothed data represents a fairly good approximation of warming up to and including March 2008″
    That is: you let your belief invent new data [for the 15 years after 2008] to bolster that belief. Not the way to go.

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 5:50 am | Reply

    > And what is wrong with pointing out

    Eh! nothing. Just checking to be sure I could tell who our host is irked at, you or the guy you were quoting (or of course both).

    Tamino, just checking, you’ve read some of these papers?
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leif+svalgaard

    Leif, do you know Tamino’s professional work?

    Just saying, I see plenty of confusion in what’s said, what’s implied, what’s inferred, and what’s visible only to some but not others.

    Nature’s real. What we think is going on is just what we think, at best.

    If Leif’s trying to get your goat, I hope he’ll stop; if he’s an inveterate goat collector, you have to stop letting him get yours. If, as I do think, both of you are courting Nature and want to know true things, you might find common ground respecting that endeavor, even here. Or even pretending that you do.

    And the horse might learn to sing, too.

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 6:04 am | Reply

    One more thought. I’ve seen Leif discouraging the “it’s the Sun, it’s gotta be the Sun” crowd, both in blogs and in print, as here:
    http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/SFgate/SFgate?&listenv=table&multiple=1&range=1&directget=1&application=fm07&database=%2Fdata%2Fepubs%2Fwais%2Findexes%2Ffm07%2Ffm07&maxhits=200&=%22GC31B-0351%22
    “…. I would suggest that the lack of such secular variation undermines the circumstantial evidence for a “hidden” source of irradiance variability and that there therefore also might be a floor in TSI, such that TSI during Grand Minima would simply be that observed at current solar minima. This obviously has implications for solar forcing of terrestrial climate.”

    The implication being perhaps obvious. Or maybe not?

  • cce // April 30, 2008 at 7:53 am | Reply

    The moving average represents observations (or our best attempt), which he included. The smoothed data represents a reasonable extrapolation to the present. If you believe the reason for the warming, then it is likely to continue into the future, and the filter gives us a good approximation over the entire timespan. If you don’t believe the reason, then it doesn’t mean anything.

    i.e. If you want to know how much warming has occurred in Central England since 1975, you’d say “about 1.25 degrees” which would be perfectly reasonable since the filter removes the noise AND extends all the way to the present, which the moving average doesn’t. But it shouldn’t be offered as proof of “unprecedented warming.”

    The most recent 30 year slope is proof of “unprecedented warming,” but only for the more reliable data.

    FWIW, I get slightly different results when I take the 30 slope than your graph. Both the 1978 to 2007 slope and 1691 to 1720 slope are 0.504 degrees per decade.

  • Wolfgang Flamme // April 30, 2008 at 10:58 am | Reply

    Tamino,

    German temperature history also confirms this analysis:
    http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u304/wflamme/MonthlyAnomaliesGermany.png

    However man and nature do not experience 30yr means of anomalies as such, nor monthly means of anomalies as shown in the bottom figure.

    Showing daily … hourly anomalies (or even absolute temperatures) would make an even more interesting comparison about what climate trends actually might add to CET warming never experienced before but I didn’t have the data handy.

  • DocMartyn // April 30, 2008 at 11:04 am | Reply

    Take a look at the monthly temperature from the UK. There is a bimodal waveform with peaks in March and Sept/Oct. These peaks appear to follow the farming cycle, planting and harvesting. During 1914-1919 and again in 1939-1940 these were two major attempts to bring more land under cultivation. The industrialization of agriculture began in the 1950’s. The hedgerows were ripped out and large scale grain productions dates from this time.
    What effect land use will have on the UK’s temperature, MAY, be reflected in this temperature profile. In March the soil is turned over and the countryside becomes brown.
    In the Autumn the crops are harvested, and the stubble used to be burnt, leaving black earth.

  • sod // April 30, 2008 at 12:36 pm | Reply

    That is: you let your belief invent new data [for the 15 years after 2008] to bolster that belief. Not the way to go.

    Leif, why not stick to ONE topic, for once?

    you are using the typical “topic hopping” technique of the denialist camp.

    nothing that you brought up, did shed ANY new light on the discussion at hand. NOTHING.

    when Tamino was discussing errors and misleading graphs of modern temperature, sceptics complaint that he needs to use “all” available data.

    now that he is looking at the longest record, you bring up PDO, without any reason what so ever.

    what topic will you jump to, when he takes apart the PDO hype next week?

    (that is easy. we “are” in a “cool” PDO phase now, but have the HIGHEST temp on record!!!!)

  • Barton Paul Levenson // April 30, 2008 at 12:47 pm | Reply

    I am very suspicious of sinusoidal curve fits to almost any data unless you have strong a priori reasons for suspecting a particular physical mechanism. The reason is that sinusoidal curves can be fit to any data at all. All you’re doing in such a case is Fourier-analyzing the data, and like Ptolemy, you get epicycles.

    I did something like this with the spacing ratios of the semimajor axes of the planets from about 1975 to 1978, sending all my fits to the planetology journal, Icarus. I had some really nice fits, too. Some depended on the existence of a second asteroid belt between Saturn and Uranus, extrapolated from the discovery of Chiron. Some depended on the orbital eccentricity of the planets to either side. It took a while for me to realize, essentially through self-education, that what I was doing was not meaningful.

    Interestingly, my crackpot efforts at coming up with a new Bode’s Law contributed to a real scientific advanced — Icarus added something to their guidelines stating that they would no longer accept papers dealing with “improved” (their quote marks) versions of Bode’s Law. : )

  • TCO // April 30, 2008 at 1:01 pm | Reply

    It sounds like using a smooth (which gets you to present day), versus a moving average, is a bit based on an assumption that warming will continue. There’s a danger of circularity here.

  • TCO // April 30, 2008 at 1:08 pm | Reply

    Also, Tammy, I complete agree with your point that the most recent 30 years is notably warmer than any other period in the record. But it’s still interesting if we find large wiggliness in the pre-AGW record as it implies high natural variability of climate.

    I also (still) caution both my side and your side, not to get over-exercised on a single region. We could probably search the globe and find one with a large drop in the last 30 years. Heck, AGW proponents have already said that they think there was high NE Europe temps during the MWP, but that it was a regional issue. So debating one single series HS shapedness will not be a killer blow for either side, even if we somehow verify the true answer and the looks support one side or the other more.

  • Julian Flood // April 30, 2008 at 1:14 pm | Reply

    Re HB 29 Apr 2:32

    quote The ten year smoothing shows an extraordinary leap around the years 1700 to about 1730, about 2.2 degrees of warming. Had I been sitting in Warwick in 1730 and been shown a comparison of my own warming and the 20th century’s 1.6 degrees, I might have pointed out that my own time had much more to worry about. But, of course, it was just weather — the thirty year smoothing magics it away.
    (reply) The one-year averages show an extraordinary drop from 1733 to 1740, fully 3.7 deg.C. Had I been in Warwick in 1740 and been ignorant of the difference between weather and climate … But of course, doing any smoothing at all just “magics” it away…
    unquote

    You might not have noticed that we agree on this, which is why I wrote that it was just weather — the thirty year’s jump in 1740 _was_ just weather. How could it be anything else when there is no physical theory to explain something which is merely time-localised variation?

    quote It’s important to distinguish between natural fluctuations which don’t persist and unnatural changes which do persist. On a 30-year time scale — the standard for climatological means — your argument fails. unquote

    Argument? I was merely pointing out what the record would have looked like to someone living at a time when the weather was going through a prolonged excursion. Matters nowadays are entirely different — we have an agreement that climate is a thirty year excursion and, more important, we have a theory which explains our current thirty year excursion. Our instrumental record is incomparably better with modern methods of data management. But one can’t help but wonder (a subtext which no doubt explains your rather defensive manner of reply)… what if we’ve got something wrong? What if climate is not a thirty year thing — our hypothetical Warwick resident would have known nothing more than we do? What if it’s 170 years, a full cycle of the wind variation I asked about in my first post?

    BTW, is there any sign of a cycle that long in the record? Your smoothings might show it, but I’m afraid it’s beyond me.

    JF

  • dhogaza // April 30, 2008 at 1:54 pm | Reply

    I have never said that it was not CO2, just that the observational evidence for CO2 is weak as there has been similar increases not caused by CO2.

    Looks like our esteemed solar physicist should’ve set aside a few moments in his undergraduate days to take an introductory course in formal logic.

    A logically equivalent statement would be “I never said that Dresden didn’t burn due to firebombing by the allies, I only said that the observational evidence is weak because London burned to the ground in the mid-1600s long before the airplane was invented”.

  • Jon // April 30, 2008 at 5:13 pm | Reply

    A logically equivalent statement would be “I never said that Dresden didn’t burn due to firebombing by the allies, I only said that the observational evidence is weak because London burned to the ground in the mid-1600s long before the airplane was invented”.

    I usually go the forest fires route- lightning causing them in the past has no bearing on arson in the present or future.

    Another favorite of mine is thermonuclear war causing catastrophic cooling, and what bearing the lack of thermonuclear war in the past would have on the reality and/or attribution of nuclear winter.

  • JD // April 30, 2008 at 5:27 pm | Reply

    Why are the results so strikingly different to those of this analysis?

    http://www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2_1.htm

    [Response: Exactly what striking differences are you referring to?]

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 5:47 pm | Reply

    No one questions that the “observational evidence” for CO2 is weak, it’s expected to be weak. It’s known to be a weak signal in a noisy background. If it were strong we’d have a situation like we have with chlorofluorocarbons, where …. well, where a large group of industries, nations, and flakes are still in denial, the problem material is still being produced, and the laws, regulations, and financial systems in place to control the problem are being gamed for short term profit at considerable cost to the environment and the global commons.

    I also wish at this point to note a faint but distinct hint that it’s possible Godwin’s Law may invoke itself here soon, if we’re not very careful.

    Read the FAQ. Seriously:
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

  • Petro // April 30, 2008 at 7:29 pm | Reply

    dhogaza realized:
    ‘A logically equivalent statement would be “I never said that Dresden didn’t burn due to firebombing by the allies, I only said that the observational evidence is weak because London burned to the ground in the mid-1600s long before the airplane was invented”.’

    You are nasty, still you represent the essence. Keep on going!

  • dhogaza // April 30, 2008 at 7:56 pm | Reply

    Apparently, Hank, it’s inevitable when discussing global warming:

    talk with a Libertarian for more than a few hours and he’ll almost certainly
    bring up Nazis

    Heh heh …

  • trrll // April 30, 2008 at 8:03 pm | Reply

    The moving average represents observations (or our best attempt), which he included. The smoothed data represents a reasonable extrapolation to the present. If you believe the reason for the warming, then it is likely to continue into the future, and the filter gives us a good approximation over the entire timespan. If you don’t believe the reason, then it doesn’t mean anything.

    I don’t see how a fit using all of the available data up to the present, and not extending beyond the data, can be referred to as an “extrapolation” by any standard.

    Of course, you can always argue that the trend is “just about” to change, but that is pure wishful thinking.

  • anon // April 30, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Reply

    And I never said that there is no evidence God smote the inhabitants of Delhi with cholera last year, because of their sexual laxity. I only pointed out that many people had suffered from cholera at many points in history, and that usually contaminated water had been blamed. However, I agree, it is certainly possible that this time it was different, and that this time it was all down to the Lord and not contaminated water at all….

  • Lost and Confused // April 30, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Reply

    There is a degree of absurdity in predicting an occurrence of Godwin’s Law, as it inherently is an invocation of Godwin’s Law.

    This is aptly demonstrated by dhogaza.

  • dhogaza // April 30, 2008 at 8:27 pm | Reply

    Uh, L&C, quoting a passage from the “law” (or more precisely, from Hank’s link which is more along the lines of a volume on related case law) is not an invocation of the law.

    But, then again, we already know you have some fundamental issues with understanding english …

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 8:48 pm | Reply

    Actually not. Read the FAQ ….

  • Lost and Confused // April 30, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Reply

    Ah, indeed not. I had never bothered to read the actual wording of Godwin’s Law, and apparently it was poorly explained to me (In the explanation I was given, the law only stated Nazis or Hitler would be brought up, not that they would be part of a comparison).

    Then again, apparently Godwin’s Law only applies to Usenet discussions. In that sense, it seems nobody here is going by the literal interpretation. I suppose we are all wrong?

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 9:12 pm | Reply

    Then again, one thing it says in the FAQ is mentioning Godwin leads to endless discussion of ….

    Oh, never mind. Where were we before Dresden? Forest fires. Lightning.

    The ‘trevoole’ guy’s page just shows straight line fits, and picks one for the same stretch of time around 1700 that our host here has pointed out in one of his analyses:
    http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cetsmooth.jpg?w=500&h=391

    Not inconsist analysis, just much less analysis of any kind at trevoole’s page than on our host’s here.

  • David B. Benson // April 30, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Reply

    Leif Svalgaard // April 30, 2008 at 1:29 am — If you want to look for power in the 60–70 year band, go to the NOAA Paeoclimatology site and pick up, say, the GISP2 temperatures as determined by Alley. Use just the Holocene, maybe starting nicely after the 8.2 kya event. Determine the power spectrum via a standard tool such as fft.

    Will you find power in the 60–70 yer band? Certainly. There is power at all frequencies. Will you discover a peak in that band? Probably. My bin analysis suggests so. Will it be a statistically significant peak? Very, very unlikely.

  • DocMartyn // April 30, 2008 at 9:46 pm | Reply

    Here is the average change in temperature of the individual months in the UK data set (1659 to 2006).
    As you can see, there is a season change that appears to have a human activity fingerprint.

    http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w318/DocMartyn/MonthlyTempChangesUK16592006.jpg

  • Hank Roberts // April 30, 2008 at 9:56 pm | Reply

    > human activity
    Spring and Fall Equinox
    Periods of fastest change in day length

  • David B. Benson // April 30, 2008 at 10:07 pm | Reply

    Yesterday I happened across a strange paper claiming a Dalton-type minimum in sunspot numbers once each 20 or so 10.448 year solar cycles. As this caused me to improve my bin analysis of Holocene Central Greenalnd temperatures a bit, I tried it.

    No significant peak.

    But more, at least in Central Greenland only the beginning of the Maunder Minimum (and maybe the end, by doubling the years for a sunspot sycle and having the number of cycles) can be detected, if you know where to look for it. The central part doesn’t show any temperature deviations and the Dalton minimum is not to be found:

    bin03 @ 1589 CE
    bin03 @ 1599 CE
    bin03 @ 1610 CE
    bin02 @ 1620 CE
    bin02 @ 1631 CE
    bin03 @ 1641 CE
    bin03 @ 1651 CE
    bin03 @ 1662 CE
    bin03 @ 1672 CE
    bin03 @ 1683 CE
    bin03 @ 1693 CE
    bin03 @ 1704 CE
    bin03 @ 1714 CE
    bin03 @ 1725 CE
    bin03 @ 1735 CE
    bin03 @ 1746 CE
    bin03 @ 1756 CE
    bin03 @ 1766 CE
    bin03 @ 1777 CE
    bin03 @ 1787 CE
    bin03 @ 1798 CE
    bin04 @ 1808 CE
    bin04 @ 1819 CE
    bin04 @ 1829 CE
    bin05 @ 1840 CE
    bin05 @ 1850 CE

    Note the temperature run up since the interval ending in 1801 CE.

  • JD // April 30, 2008 at 10:28 pm | Reply

    Hi Hank Roberts,
    “Not inconsist analysis, just much less analysis of any kind at trevoole’s page than on our host’s here.”

    You will find more analysis if you read on:
    http://www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2m1_1.htm
    http:/www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2m2_1.htm
    http://www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2m3_1.htm

    Comments are very welcome.

  • JD // April 30, 2008 at 10:39 pm | Reply

    DocMartyn,

    Is that a straight difference between temperatures of each month 1659-2006?

    You might find the monthly trends are quite interesting:
    http:/www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2m2_1.htm
    (link posted earlier)

  • Cthulhu // April 30, 2008 at 11:21 pm | Reply

    JD perhaps you, like this trevoole guy are not away that greenhouse enhancement is supposed to raise minimum temperatures more than maximum, ie winters will get more warmer than summer…

    Of course that the CET record shows this could just be coincidence. Still it’s rather ironic when someone thinks they have found a problem with the co2-warming theory when in actual fact this looks more like confirmation than a problem.

  • Cthulhu // April 30, 2008 at 11:24 pm | Reply

    Sorry to use a media article, but being 17 years old this article shows noone is suddenly making up the warmer winters claim post-hoc:
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12917520.800-warmer-winters-fit-greenhouse-model-.html

  • george // April 30, 2008 at 11:31 pm | Reply

    CCE says

    The smoothed data represents a reasonable extrapolation to the present. If you believe the reason for the warming, then it is likely to continue into the future, and the filter gives us a good approximation over the entire timespan. If you don’t believe the reason, then it doesn’t mean anything.”

    “extrapolation to the present”??!

    There’s a phrase I have not seen before.

    When I look at the 30 year smoothed data, I get about 1.5C for the last year and about 1.0C for 2000.

    When I look at the 1-year average, I see about 1.3C for the last year, but that follows a year which was about 1.6C. If I average those two together, I get 1.45C, very close to the 1.5C value given by the smoothed graph.

    When I look at the 1-year average, I see about 0.7C for 2000, but that follows a year which was about 1.4C and the next year is also about1.4C. If I average those 3 together, I get 1.16 , slightly bigger than the 1.0C value given by the smoothed graph.

    Based on an admittedly crude comparison of the smoothed data to the 1-year average data near the end of the time interval , i would say that the smoothing filter appears to be doing what it is supposed to do — smoothing (imagine that)

    A smoothing filter is supposed to “smooth” which is “interpolation”, not “extrapolation”. There is a difference — albeit just a slight one :)

    Not only is the idea that a smoothing filter “extrapolates” complete bunk, but so is the idea that it necessarily “assumes future warming.”

  • Zeke // May 1, 2008 at 12:26 am | Reply

    Tamino: It might be worthwhile to write a post on the relative magnitude of PDO cycles, and the upcoming Nature article that is generating a lot of attention in the usual quarters (e.g. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/30/eaclimate130.xml and http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/a-look-at-hadcrut-global-temps-and-pdo-with-hodrick-prescott-filtering-applied/ )

  • george // May 1, 2008 at 1:44 am | Reply

    BPL said:
    “I am very suspicious of sinusoidal curve fits”.

    Me too. After all, there are three kinds of fits: fits, damned fits and sine curve fits…

    Icarus added something to their guidelines stating that they would no longer accept papers dealing with “improved” (their quote marks) versions of Bode’s Law. : )

    Perhaps it is because you left out the word “new” — “NEW & IMPROVED” (Caps are important too, when trying to make a point)

    Who in his right mind would reject the latter claim?

    “NEW & IMPROVED” is patentable. Just plain “improved” is not.

  • cce // May 1, 2008 at 2:23 am | Reply

    George,

    “30 year smoothed data” requires 30 years of data. Smoothing the last 15 years, no matter how good the method, is an extrapolation based on partial data and the assumption of continued warming. The smoothed value of 2007 ultimately depends on data from years that have not happened. If you doubt this, perhaps Tamino can run the filter on the CET data again, this time stopping in 1736. Then we can compare that graph to this one:
    http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cetsmooth.jpg

    They will be quite different, even though they contain the same data to 1736, and use the same filter. The difference is that one knows the temperature of the “future” (which was colder than the years leading up to 1736).

    [Response: You have a fundamental misunderstanding. "Smoothed on a 30-yr time scale" isn't the same thing as "based on 30 yr of data," and a 30-yr smoothed value is not the same as a 30-year average unless the chosen smoothing method is: moving averages. And a weakness of moving averages as a smoothing method is: they depend too heavily on values (both future and past) which are far from the given moment.

    The smoothed value at the present time is NOT an extrapolation, it's an ESTIMATE of the present value, on the given time scale, based on the available data, NOT on any assumption of future values. It's pretty close to the best estimate available. Of course future data will revise that estimate! But it'll only revise it substantially if there's a very sudden and very precipitous drop in temperature, or a very sudden and very explosive rise in temperature. The belief that the change will be substantial -- now THAT would be making an extrapolation based on assuming the course of future data.]

  • sod // May 1, 2008 at 7:11 am | Reply

    They will be quite different, even though they contain the same data to 1736, and use the same filter. The difference is that one knows the temperature of the “future” (which was colder than the years leading up to 1736).

    the problem with this approach of course is, that basically NOONE expects a massive cooling over the next decade.
    (even sceptic papers at best predict some “leveling of”)

    so you are basing your claim “massive cooling could reduce the current “spike” when smoothing it on absolutely ZERO facts.

    no surprise.

  • cce // May 1, 2008 at 2:52 pm | Reply

    No sod. You can read my posts to see what I have “claimed.”

    If you believe that the current warming is the result of “natural cycles,” as many skeptics do, a built in assumption of continued AGW doesn’t fly. The possibility of Central England cooling in the next few years (to them) is as probable as the cooling was after 1736 (of course that assumes that the data is reliable). It doesn’t even require cooling. We are currently tied for the fastest rate of warming (30 year trend) in the series. If temperatures were to flatten out for 10 years, even that would prevent establishing a new precedent.

    Are current temperatures unprecedented in the CET series? Yes. Is the rate of warming unprecedented in the “reliable” data? Yes. Is the rate unprecedented if we include the unreliable data? No. It’s such a trivial concession.

  • cce // May 1, 2008 at 3:31 pm | Reply

    Tamino, I apologize for improper terminology. I don’t know how these filters work, but I know that as you approach the present, they have less and less data available to them. The moving averages from your plots (above) track very closely with the filtered data where they overlap, so I don’t see much benefit to the filter, other than the ability to go right up to the present. The Hadley Center was recently involved in a controversy because their filtering method was giving the impression of remarkable cooling based on the recent months. So they made changes to reduce that effect.

    Perhaps you could do a post on the choice of smoothing methods and what the effect of adding different kinds of “future” data has on the estimation of the “present.”

    [Response: No apology necessary. In addition to being able to "go right up to the present," they also maintain the time scale, which is really more related to how rapidly things are allowed to change than to how long a time span enters into the approximation. The lack of future data certainly makes any smoothed estimate less precise near the edge of the data, and there's always a possibility of dramatic change on time scales less than the time scale of the filter. How future data can alter smoothed estimates would indeed make a good post. I'm working on some insights to be gained from daily (rather than monthly/annual) data, but maybe I'll do that next.]

  • steven mosher // May 1, 2008 at 5:13 pm | Reply

    Daily data would be a good post

  • Hank Roberts // May 1, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Reply

    Thanks Tamino. This back and forth really helps me as a reader get a better idea of what the terms mean.
    Now if I can just find them next week ….

    Did you ever look at the comic book introduction to statistics, or something similar, and find anything you can recommend just to get us all on the same page for definitions of common terms?

  • David B. Benson // May 1, 2008 at 8:48 pm | Reply

    Hank Roberts // May 1, 2008 at 5:41 pm — Is “How to Lie with Statistics” still in print after 50 years? As a high school student I found it quite a good introduction to elementary statistics, inlcuded the common terms, which have not, AFAIK, changed…

  • John N-G // May 1, 2008 at 10:09 pm | Reply

    I had occasion to pick up my Numerical Recipes book (1992 edition) today, and was pleased to find it had a Savitzky-Golay section. Ah, good, I thought, I should learn how to use something better than a moving average. What I read indicated that a moving average was equivalent to a Savitzky-Golay filter of degree 0, and that all such filters fit a polynomial to a range of points centered about the point at which a filtered value is desired.
    How are you getting values near the ends, at non-centered points? Are you just using the values of the fitted polynomial beyond the last centered point?

    [Response: Not quite. Nearly all filters fit some kind of trial functions to subsets of data in order to estimate the value at a given estimation time. For the straight S-G filter, the trial functions are polynomials and the included data are those points within a "sliding window" which is centered on the given point. But requiring that the window be centered on a given point doesn't require that there actually be data throughout the entire window. At the endpoint, half the window is unoccupied. This is different from extending the last polynomial for which the window is completely occupied; that would include more data, but it would also include data points which are farther from the estimation point. In any case, the filter has reduced precision at the endpoint.

    I think of filters with a sliding window as "local" filters, and those which use *all* the data (so the "window" includes the entire data set) for every estimation time (like a low-pass filter) as "global" filters. In order to use either to estimate a value at the endpoint, it's necessary to do a fit for which the window is unoccupied on one side of the time at which an estimate is being made.

    In addition to using a sliding window, one can also use a sliding weighting function. In this case points nearer the time of estimation are given greater statistical weight than those further away. In fact the simple sliding window can be thought of as a sliding weighting function which is a "box function," i.e., it's 1 within a set distance from the estimation time and 0 otherwise. Another common choice is a Guassian weighting function. When using a sliding weighting function at the endpoint of the data, it's even more important to center the weighting function at the endpoint of the data rather than simply extend the last full-window fit; otherwise the estimate at the endpoint gives very little statistical weight to the data actually nearest the estimation time. In fact, for weighting functions like a Gaussian, there is no "full-window" fit since the weighting function is nonzero all the way to infinity (albeit it rapidly decays to insignificant values).

    Strictly speaking, the filter I applied isn't a straightforward Savitzky-Golay filter, it's a running polynomial fit with a weighting function which I've designed to minimize the probable error for a given time scale. I called it a Savitzky-Golay filter because that's a reasonably descriptive name (the fit functions are polynomials) and I didn't care to go into a lot of details about the filter in a post which really isn't about filters. As I mentioned in response to an earlier comment, I also computed a low-pass filter and a wavelet-based filter, which gave essentially the same results.

    The original paper on the S-G filter assumed that the data are evenly spaced in time ("even sampling") and took advantage of that to exploit the fact that the S-G filter can be calculated as a simple linear function of the data within the window. S&G computed the linear transformation coefficients ahead of time, which enables the calculation to be done with the least amount of arithmetic. In part this was motivated by the rudimentary nature of calculation at the time of publication; as they say in the paper:

    The methods apply as well to the desk calculator, or to simple paper and pencil operations for small amounts of data, as they do to the digital computer for large amounts of data, since their major utility is to simplify and speed up the processing of data.

    When the paper was published (1964), computers weren't always available even to research scientists and we certainly didn't have gigahertz processors sitting on everybody's desk; it's hard to imagine research scientists actually doing pencil-and-paper calculations today! The formulation which uses a linear function to calculate the S-G filter actually *does* require a fully occupied "window." But that's not an essential requirement of the method itself.]

  • David B. Benson // May 2, 2008 at 12:48 am | Reply

    A quick study of the power spectrum for the Holocene in Central Greenland using just the temperatures since well after the 8.2 kya event indeed shows a slight peak in the 64 year band. There is a much more pronounced peak in the 160 year band.

    While the former can be explained by the PDO (appears to only weakly affect Central Greenland), I know of no oscillation to explain the (wide) 160 year band oscillation in Central Greenland temperatures.

  • Phil Scadden // May 2, 2008 at 12:54 am | Reply

    Do you have a reference for the modified filter that you are using? I’m working on power station efficiency and the instrument, or instrument-derived data always has both noise and high-frequency demand-cycle component. I’ve tended to use moving average to look at it but I can see that S-G filter might have some useful advantages.

    [Response: I only developed the weighting function a couple of months ago, and I'm still conducting tests and writing it up. I hope there'll be a good reference soon!]

  • Julian Flood // May 2, 2008 at 3:22 am | Reply

    Re: Benson, quote I know of no oscillation to explain the (wide) 160 year band oscillation in Central Greenland temperatures. unquote

    How close do you need to be? I can do you 170 years: see
    ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/006/y5028e/y5028e02.pdf

    JF

  • John Finn // May 2, 2008 at 1:40 pm | Reply

    A few quick comments:

    Sunshine

    There has been a huge increase in the amount of sunshine received by the CET region in the past 30 to 40 years. Unfortunately I’ve only got the data for my own city which lies slap bang in the middle of the CET region, but I’m pretty sure UK and England/Wales sunshine records support it. The city data suggests more than 20% extra sunshine hours since ~1960.

    Also

    Although I don’t think the UHI effect is a significant factor at the global level, I’m far from convinced that the CET record has adequately compensated for it. In fact from my own observations in July 2006 I’m sure it hasn’t.

    I did have other comments on accuracy of data but others seem to have made broadly the same points. Dhogaza’s assertion that GISS “algorithms” are somehow more accurate than a simple extrapolation on a small region like CE is nonsense.

  • Hank Roberts // May 2, 2008 at 2:06 pm | Reply

    Julian, where’s the rest of that document you linked from a FAO page? Where was it published? Most of it’s missing from the piece that’s downloadable.

    I see a figure caption that says this, but with no cite given:

    “if they do indeed follow the 170–180 year repetitive pattern as suggested by paleological records that measure solar activities. These are used by Dr Fletcher to help construct a Climate Futurecast for the twenty-first century.”

    And another figure caption that says

    “Figure 9 Connected icons show some conventional sun/climate/ecological interactions. These are shorthand for very complex, non-linear processes that are many cases difficult to measure and model. They each operate on very different time and space scales. (Note that all these processes take place within a steady hail of Galactic Cosmic Rays (c.f. Ed Mercurio’s URL for website review), arriving from all directions, and myriad sources beyond our influence, or general knowledge, providing forcing for poorly understood processes).”

    Did you find anything more than what I found, where that came from?

    Do you know where it was published in full form?

  • Phil. // May 2, 2008 at 2:48 pm | Reply

    John Finn

    When I lived in Sheffield (early 70s-early 80s) it was noticeable that the chance of being sunburnt on a Friday was less than a Saturday which in turn was less than on Sunday. I always put that down to industrial haze thinning during the weekend (sunsets tended to support this).

  • dhogaza // May 2, 2008 at 3:15 pm | Reply

    Dhogaza’s assertion that GISS “algorithms” are somehow more accurate than a simple extrapolation on a small region like CE is nonsense.

    Apparently they are algorithms, despite your scare quotes, because they do terminate.

    And what exactly is the basis for your handwaving dismissal of the hard work of those who’ve developed the GISS algorithms?

  • David B. Benson // May 2, 2008 at 4:57 pm | Reply

    Julian Flood // May 2, 2008 at 3:22 am — 170 years is certainly close enough. Thank you.

  • None // May 3, 2008 at 10:32 am | Reply

    How would the 30 year smooth and running average up to 2008 look in 10 years assuming these guys:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7376301.stm
    are right and there is unlikely to be warming for the next 10 years (assuming the period matches the average).

  • Fred Staples // May 3, 2008 at 3:59 pm | Reply

    When I worked with statistics this approach would have been called data mining, choosing the smoothing period to coincide with an upward movement at the end of the data record. You have to work this data very hard to find a significant upward trend which can be projected with any confidence over the next several decades.
    The key word is significant, ie unlikely to have occurred by chance.
    The annual averages are very variable, either through instrument error, natural variation, or a combination of both. Over the entire range no average temperature has exceeded 11 degrees C, and only 44 have exceeded 10 degree C. If we define an average greater than 10 degrees as warm, 22 of these years occurred after 1945, and 22 before 1945. The year before last was the warmest (10.83), 1990 the next at 10.63, but the equal thirds were 1999 and 1949 at 10.62. The year 2007 was equal tenth with 2004, 1834, and 1959.
    In other words, English temperatures are very variable.
    It is certainly true that 10 out of the last 11 years have been warm, but does this suggest a trend of 0.5 degrees per decade which can be extrapolated with any confidence? Apart from one cold year (2001) and one very warm year (2006) their average temperatures are much the same.
    It is a simple matter to find out if there is a significant trend by analysing the variance of the annual data, starting from 2007 and working backwards. How far do we have to go to establish a significant trend, ie, a trend which (with the recorded variance of the data) has less than a one in 20 probability of occurring by chance.
    The answer is as far back as 1993. From 1994 to 2007, 13 years, there has been no significant upward trend in the annual averages.

    However, two earlier years, 1989 and 1990 were both warm. The trend from these years to 2007 is not significant, so it is arguable that there has been no significant warming trend from 1989 to 2007, a period of 18 years.
    The previous comment is very apposite. Do I detect a pre-emptive strike to explain the absence of warming over the next decade?

    [Response: Let's see ... I chose a 30-yr time scale, which is the de facto standard in climate. But you accuse me of "choosing the smoothing period to coincide with an upward movement at the end of the data record." I also plotted moving averages on a 5-year, and a 10-year time scale. What do those graphs show? Oh my! An upward movement at the end of the data record!!! Your whole comment is nothing but sour grapes; you don't like what the numbers say, so you resort to name-calling to try to make the result look bad.

    And of course you go to extreme lengths to argue that we haven't seen "significant" warming in CET recently, in fact you go on a hunt for any time period you can find for which the trend doesn't pass significance testing at 95% confidence. All you really prove is that as the time span gets shorter, the uncertainty in the estimated trend goes up. It's obvious that the one doing "data mining" is YOU.

    Your application of statistics is so clearly biased by your distaste for the truth that if you "worked with statistics" for me, I'd sack you for gross incompetence.]

  • Hank Roberts // May 3, 2008 at 4:37 pm | Reply

    http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2008/05/the_malign_nature_effect_again.php
    Sorry for the digression

  • sod // May 3, 2008 at 8:49 pm | Reply

    The trend from these years to 2007 is not significant, so it is arguable that there has been no significant warming trend from 1989 to 2007, a period of 18 years.
    The previous comment is very apposite. Do I detect a pre-emptive strike to explain the absence of warming over the next decade?

    have you taken a SINGLE LOOK at the graph?

    if you can t spot the trend, i d have my eyes checked…

  • Hank Roberts // May 3, 2008 at 10:25 pm | Reply

    I’d love to see a cite to this methodology, Fred. Can you support its use in scientific statistical work?

    > It is a simple matter to find out if
    > there is a significant trend by
    > analysing the variance of the
    > annual data, … working backwards. > However, two earlier years …were
    > both warm. The trend from these
    > years to 2007 is not significant, so it
    > is arguable that there has been no
    > significant warming trend ….

    Where else has this method been used successfully in statistics? Cite please.

    Now “arguable” is an interesting word to read in your, er, argument. Has it some meaning for you in scientific work? It’s common in legal briefs.

  • John Finn // May 4, 2008 at 12:19 pm | Reply

    Phil (May 2 @ 2:48pm)

    “When I lived in Sheffield (early 70s-early 80s) it was noticeable that the chance of being sunburnt on a Friday was less than a Saturday which in turn was less than on Sunday. I always put that down to industrial haze thinning during the weekend (sunsets tended to support this)”.

    Sunburn and Sheffield? There’s 2 words you don’t expect to see in the same sentence :-) I would have thought that the greater incidence of sunburn at the week-ends was because people went out more. You do raise an interesting point, though, i.e. that industrial pollution is relatively short-lived in the atmosphere and is considerably denser at the location of it’s source. As I’ve argued before on this blog, this suggests industrial aerosols had absolutely nothing to do with the post-war cooling in the NH. From 1945 until the late 1970s/early 1980s the Central England region was pretty much one huge industrial complex. If anywhere in the world should have experienced aerosol-induced cooling it was here. It did cool but no more than the NH average. The Arctic, on the other hand, cooled about 3 times as much as the NH average.

    In anticipation of HB’s upcoming post on the PDO, I reckon the shifts to/from warming/cooling phases are due to changes in ocean oscillation. The warming trend (solar-induced?) between 1910 and 1944 occurred during a warm phase of the PDO. The cooling in 1944 coincided with a sharp dip in the PDO. The plateau throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s can be explained by the continuing cool PDO. The pre-war warming trend (still solar-induced???) then resumed when the PDO shifted to a warm phase in around 1976. In a nutshell the background warming trend is amplified or dampened depending on the phase of the PDO.

    Dhogaza (2nd May 3:15pm)

    “And what exactly is the basis for your handwaving dismissal of the hard work of those who’ve developed the GISS algorithms?”

    No need to read too much into what I said. Essentially the “methods” discussed are trying to estimate weather (as opposed to climate). It’s far easier and more reliable to estimate the average temperature for a small region like CE where there are lots of other known factors than it is to estimate the temperature for much larger and more sparsely sampled areas of the world. Put it this way how confident would you be if your estimate of the temperature in London was based on a weather station in Moscow.

  • dhogaza // May 4, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Reply

    Put it this way how confident would you be if your estimate of the temperature in London was based on a weather station in Moscow.

    Not terribly, London’s near the sea and on an island, while Moscow’s far inland and north.

    On the other hand, for much of the year at least precipitation and temperature for much of BC, WA and CA are driven by the same weather patterns and that’s a distance not so much different in scale …

    And much of the intermountain west is blanketed by single high weather systems or rocked by winter storms that cover huge swaths of the continent.

    So in principle, I’d say it depends a lot on a) where on earth you’re doing the extrapolation and b) your knowledge of the weather pattern, size of weather events, etc.

  • Hank Roberts // May 4, 2008 at 3:50 pm | Reply

    http://www.cics.uvic.ca/scenarios/index.cgi?More_Info-Downscaling_Background

    “… The first step in this process is the identification of the weather types, or atmospheric circulation patterns, usually from atmospheric pressure information. These types or patterns may be based on existing subjectively-derived weather classes, … or they may be objectively derived using techniques such as principal components analysis or artificial neural networks. Once the weather types have been identified, then statistical models between the types and local station data are calibrated and then verified. If it is possible to develop models which perform satisfactorily, then they can be used in climate change studies….”

  • David B. Benson // May 5, 2008 at 12:45 am | Reply

    I used the Lomb periodogram method to look in detail at two ranges of periods in the GISP2 temperature record for the Holocene.

    (1) The PDO oscillation does indeed seem to be faintly showing up.

    (2) The supposed 160–180 year oscillation does not. It would take some seriously sophisticated techniques to determine if there is actually something there.

    In neither case have I found anythiing which would pass a statistical significance test. Part of the problem is that the spectrum is heavily dominated by low frequencies. This looks similar to red noise, but is instead an artifact of treating a nonperiodic signal (over only 10,000 years) as if it was periodic.

    [Response: There's nowhere near proof that the PDO oscillation is periodic, and in my opinion the evidence is not even strong enough to be called weak.]

  • JD // May 5, 2008 at 10:59 am | Reply

    Cthulhu,

    This might interest you:

    http://www.trevoole.co.uk/Questioning_Climate/_sgg/m2m4_1.htm

  • Barton Paul Levenson // May 5, 2008 at 11:55 am | Reply

    sod writes:

    The trend from these years to 2007 is not significant, so it is arguable that there has been no significant warming trend from 1989 to 2007, a period of 18 years.
    The previous comment is very apposite. Do I detect a pre-emptive strike to explain the absence of warming over the next decade?

    have you taken a SINGLE LOOK at the graph?

    if you can t spot the trend, i d have my eyes checked…

    Just for the heck of it, here are the NASA GISS land-ocean surface temperature anomalies for those years:

    1989 19
    1990 38
    1991 35
    1992 13
    1993 14

    1994 24
    1995 38
    1996 30
    1997 40
    1998 57

    1999 33
    2000 33
    2001 48
    2002 56
    2003 55

    2004 49
    2005 62
    2006 54
    2007 57

    I ran the regression in Excel and got

    Anom = -4296 + 2.170 Year

    with 64% of variance accounted for. The regression was significant at better than the 99% level.

    Of course, I didn’t check for integration…

  • Hank Roberts // May 5, 2008 at 2:54 pm | Reply

    > trevoole

    Tamino, the bettter your bridge, the bigger the trolls vying to live under it.
    They want your attention. Don’t….

  • David B. Benson // May 5, 2008 at 6:46 pm | Reply

    Taminao, aka “Hansen’s Bulldoag” reponded “There’s nowhere near proof that the PDO oscillation is periodic, and in my opinion the evidence is not even strong enough to be called weak.”

    Determining the power spectrum via fft, both (tiny) peaks appear irrespective of averaging interval used and even when just using the data after the 8.2 kya event. But perhaps more important, a paper will soon appear, if it hasn’t already, reporting on computer experiments which strongly suggest that the PDO is due to ‘baryclinic Rossby waves’. This suggests that quasi-periodic behavior should appear in the temperature records. If (it’s a big if) I can cleanse the periodogram in such a way as to make the evidence more obvious, then what I have so far suggests a 50-70 year oscillation, not just the usually stated 60-70 year oscillation.

    What is the more important learning experience for me is that the presumed 160-180 year band ’signal’ in the fft derived spectrum is simply not to be found in the Lomb periodogram. Given that, the ‘evidence’ for a PDO ban oscillation in the periodogram is indeed to be taken cum grano salsis.

  • David B. Benson // May 6, 2008 at 9:17 pm | Reply

    In the Lomb periodogram for the Holocene, taken as 10,480 ybp to 100 ybp, in the GISP2 central Greenland ice core temperature measurments by Alley, there are no departures from a power-law relationship between the period and the ‘power’ as determined by the Lomb method at a significance of only 1.3 standard deviations. I take this as demonstrating that there are no quasi-periodic oscillations to be found in this paleoclimate record at any period of more than 30 years.

  • Tim Curtin // May 8, 2008 at 9:14 am | Reply

    It may be worth noting that fitting a logarithmic trend to the CET anomalies since 1951 against the average 1951-1980 produces a slower growth rate than the linear trend which appears to be the one preferred here.

  • Hank Roberts // May 8, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Reply

    Tim, why fit a different trend only to that small part of the time period? Some prior hypothesis?
    http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2008/05/selective_data_and_global_warm.php

  • Hank Roberts // May 8, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Reply

    A quote from that link may be cautionary:

    “Proper statistical analysis relies on a kind of blindness. Many of the things that you look for, you need to look for in a way that doesn’t rely on any a priori knowledge of the data. If you look at the data, and find what appears to be an interesting property of it, you have to be very careful to show that it’s a real phenomena – and you do that by performing blind analyses that demonstrate its reality.”
    http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2008/05/selective_data_and_global_warm.php

  • Fred Staples // May 8, 2008 at 2:22 pm | Reply

    You assert, Tamino, that there is an upward movement at the end of the CET data record on a ten year time scale.
    Here is the data:
    1998 10.33
    1999 10.62
    2000 10.31
    2001 9.93
    2002 10.61
    2003 10.50
    2004 10.48
    2005 10.44
    2006 10.83
    2007 10.48
    We are looking for your increase of 0.5 degrees. Is it immediately obvious? Definitely not.
    Is it there? The linear regression line has an upward slope of 0.29 degrees per decade with a 29% probability that a trend as high as this has arisen by chance.
    If we use the monthly data relative to their own averages, as you have done, the trend falls to 0.26 degrees per decade (2008 has been cold, so far), with a 38% probability that so high a trend has arisen by chance.
    So is your 0.5 degree trend there in the data, Tamino, short as the period is? There is a suggestion of about half the trend you quote, not significantly different from zero.

    [Response: Congratulations on your membership in the "I can always pick a short enough time period that the trend isn't significant" club. But -- why not start the trend analysis in January 2008?

    Try linear regression on the last 30 yr of data.]

  • Hank Roberts // May 8, 2008 at 2:23 pm | Reply

    I’d also recommend reading this carefully:
    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/03/remember_eg_becks_dodgy.php

  • dhogaza // May 8, 2008 at 3:34 pm | Reply

    I can’t wait until next year, when all this denialist talk about “10 year trends” will cause them to be comparing 1999 to 2009 … it will be *such* fun to hear them talk about how the last 11 years, not 10 years, is the proper interval to look at (“11 year sunspot cycles, after all!” or some such crap will be the justification, I’m sure).

  • dhogaza // May 8, 2008 at 8:04 pm | Reply

    Heh, so over on the RC thread regarding the recent paper in Nature predicting cooling from 2005-2015, we have a poster stating …

    We have a 0 trend for almost 11 years…

    See? It’s already happening! 1998 is the cherry-pick year that refuses to die.

  • Tim Curtin // May 9, 2008 at 2:52 am | Reply

    Hank: I wanted to see the CET anomalies against the same period used by HADCRUT for its “global” series; as noted by others, the pre-1951 CET series has its problems. My anomalies series since 1951 covers 56 years, which seems a reasonable period. But taking CET from 1881 to 2007 with the same anomaly base period the logarithmic is even more pronounced, and for the absolute temperatures becomes almost completely flat by 1990.

    It is often conceded even sometimes by IPCC that the temperature impact of rising atmospheric CO2 is logarithmic, and the growth of atmospheric CO2 also appears to be logarithmic, the rate having fallen from IPCCI in 1990 when it was 0.6% pa to 0.4% pa now. Is there a problem?

    [Response: You're mistaken about CO2 growth. It's a lot faster than logarithmic, and the smoothed growth rate was about 0.42%/yr in 1990 but it's about 0.57%/yr now.]

  • Hank Roberts // May 9, 2008 at 4:58 am | Reply

    Check your sources (and cite them please). There’s a lot of misinformation put around, but rarely does it have any citation with it. One way to tell.

  • Steve Bloom // May 9, 2008 at 5:36 am | Reply

    T., it was mentioned above that you’ll be doing a post on the PDO. If so I wanted to make sure you were aware of this research.

  • Alan Woods // May 9, 2008 at 5:50 am | Reply

    dhogaza, you’re darn tootin’!

    1998 is so hip, even James Hansen uses it:

    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.C.lrg.gif

  • Tim Curtin // May 9, 2008 at 7:23 am | Reply

    Tamino: with respect I prefer the actual data. The actual growth rates at Mauna Loa for the last three years, March 05-06, March 06-07, and March 07-08 are 4.6, 4.8, 3.6 % pa respectively. Plotting the year on year growth rates for all months since 1958 shows that the faster ever growth was in 1998, and that the logarithmic provides the best fit. If I were to cherry pick I could choose to emphasise the close tracking downward of both linear and logarithimic of atmos CO2 since 1998, but I don’t., interesting though that stat. is. The log linear trend at Mauna Loa since 1958 seems to be around 2% pa.

    [Response: With respect, I prefer actual data too, and I prefer not to cherry-pick. The growth rates in *annual average* CO2 for the last three years are 0.67%, 0.45%, and 0.56%. The CO2 concentration has most definitely NOT followed anything near a logarithmic curve, which would have decreasing slope, instead it shows increasing slope.]

  • Tim Curtin // May 9, 2008 at 8:01 am | Reply

    Correction, oops! the correct figures in my last are 0.46, 0.48, and 0.36% pa, and lastly 0.2% pa.

  • Hank Roberts // May 9, 2008 at 2:55 pm | Reply

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/06/the_gods_are_laughing_at_tom_h.php#comment-114141
    Was this ever understood?

  • dhogaza // May 9, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Reply

    HB, I presume you know who Tim Curtin is, and that dialogue is useless with ideologues…

    However, since he’s here…

    It is often conceded even sometimes by IPCC that the temperature impact of rising atmospheric CO2 is logarithmic

    “conceded even sometimes by IPCC”? What a strange thing to say regarding BASIC SCIENCE. Climate scientists ALWAYS talk about “forcing per doubling of CO2″, which is a log2 relation.

    The IPCC also “concedes” that the sun warms the earth.

    And that the earth is (roughly) spherical, not flat.

    Any other revelations regarding IPCC “concessions” you’d like to enlighten us about?

  • J // May 9, 2008 at 5:27 pm | Reply

    Tim C seems to be confused about the difference between:

    (1) the trend in atmospheric CO2, versus
    (2) the rate of change of the trend in atmospheric CO2.

    At least, I think that’s what’s confusing him.

    Since (2) is both positive and increasing, (1) is not logarithmic.

    Try fitting a logarithmic, linear, or even exponential function to the monthly CO2 measurements since 1958. The slope is increasing more steeply than any of those models. You need a polynomial model.

  • dhogaza // May 9, 2008 at 5:49 pm | Reply

    Well, Tim Curtin is an economist with some very interesting views. I recommend his website, where you can find stuff like:

    Your World Aids Day supplement failed to mention that ‘male circumcision’ is by far the best path to prevention of the spread of Aids.

    Curtin is one of those economists who seems certain that his training makes him more knowledgeable in medicine than disease specialists, more knowledgeable in climate science than climate scientists, ad nauseum.

    This site will definitely become more entertaining if he chooses to stick around.

  • Hank Roberts // May 9, 2008 at 6:06 pm | Reply

    But we digress.
    Back to Central England Temperatures?

  • David B. Benson // May 9, 2008 at 7:00 pm | Reply

    Tim Curtin // May 9, 2008 at 2:52 am — Here is a graph of human CO2 emissions per year:

    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/tre_glob.htm

  • Robert McLachlan // May 9, 2008 at 10:09 pm | Reply

    Hi Tamino,

    If, instead of a linear fit of mean surface temperature since 1880 to time, you try a linear fit to CO_2, solar output, ENSO index, and aerosol index (if there is one) (and so on for any other plausible drivers) do you get a better fit and explain significantly more of the variability?

  • Tim Curtin // May 10, 2008 at 2:24 am | Reply

    Some comments:

    Tamino: Thanks. I have that link, it does not so far as I can see show trends in the growth rate (see below); also it mislabels what are clearly the absolute annual increments (in pppmv) as the “growth rate” (%). The august Authors of your link need to learn the diffrence between absolutes and rates!

    The very close fits for both linear and logarithmic showing steady downward trends of the monthly year on year changes in atmospheric CO2 concentration at Mauna Loa since 1998 (admittedly the historic all time peak year for that growth as I note above) is interesting given that over the same period CO2 emissions have been growing faster than ever (de/dt) and at a growing rate (d’e/de). So why did atmos. CO2 growth peak in 1998, the hottest ever year according to GISS (until recently), and also the year of probably the strongest known El Nino?

    J is wrong to claim that atmos CO2 is growing at a growing rate. See Tamino’s link, and work out the rates from the data.

    Likewise David’s link is to a graph showing emissions, not the atmos. CO2 concentration.

    Robert: I have found some very good regression fits for the sort of thing thing you mention. For example, regressing temp anomalies (GISS from 1958) against CO2@Mauna Loa and the Sunspots Index, the AdjR2 is 0.84, and both coefficients have high ts, but that on the sunspots is more powerful . The DW is (just) OK.

    [Response: Is this a joke? It's hard to believe you're serious.

    I guess I'll have to do a post about it.]

  • Hank Roberts // May 10, 2008 at 4:53 am | Reply

    You, ah, aren’t familiar with the gentleman’s past online, eh? He’ll take all the attention you can give him.

  • Tim Curtin // May 10, 2008 at 4:58 am | Reply

    Don’t do a post before you have done your own regressions using the same data sets. BTW, redoing the annual changes in temps regressions against annual changes in the sunspots index and annual changes at Mauna Loa, while the R2 drops, the coefficient on Sunspots remains large and significant (t=3.49, and p=.001) while that on CO2@MaunaLoa is negative but statistically insignificant; the DW at 2.62 implies no first order autocorrelation. I look forward to seeing your results – good luck! But do try to distinguish between absolute values and rates of change.

  • elspi // May 10, 2008 at 5:59 am | Reply

    OMG
    Tim-exponential-polynomial-growth-Curtain has come to visit Open Mind.

    FYI HB, he is every bit as serious as he is clueless.

  • sod // May 10, 2008 at 8:52 am | Reply

    [Response: Is this a joke? It's hard to believe you're serious.

    I guess I'll have to do a post about it.]

    Tamino, beware.

    to tell you just a couple of the worst claims that Tim Curtin made during discussions with me:
    (all on deltoid. a search should bring up plenty of results)

    1. Tim does believe, that switching from fossil fuels to solar energy will cause massive problems because of the Einstein formula E=mc². (sic) he thinks that the enormous amounts of mass that will not be transformed into energy (sic) will cause problems to earth.

    2. Tim does believe, that current agriculture is completely dependent on an increase in CO2. he considers CO2 to be a FREE useful byproduct generated by burning fossil fuel. he denies the fact that CO2 uptake is linked to CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. he assumes a “run away” effect of Co2 uptake: a reduction of CO2 output with continuous increase of uptake will cause eradication of mankind by starvation by 2050. (not joking.)

    so my warning: the term “i can t believe that you just said this” will rather be the NORM in a discussion with Tim Curtin…

  • Tim Curtin // May 10, 2008 at 11:47 am | Reply

    BTW, perhaps I should have explained that the first regression I reported was absolute changes in temps aagainst actual absolute Mauna Loa levels plus changes in the Sunspots index, using actual Mauna Loa, because there are those who believe that it is the total CO2 concentration that matters, not chnages therein. The second regression I reported uses only year on year changes in all of temps, Mauna Loa, and Sunspot index. The first clearly has some autoregression, hence the high R2. The second is DW kosha, at the cost of lower R2, but further down grades CO2@Mauna Loa. Look, I am not pre-judging, and would like only to have answers from those far more expert than me.

  • dhogaza // May 10, 2008 at 1:55 pm | Reply

    Is this a joke? It’s hard to believe you’re serious.

    I guess I’ll have to do a post about it.

    It’s Tim Curtin. He’s serious. He’s a bit of a clown, though he’s blessedly unaware of it.

    He apparently has had the ear of some prominent conservatives in Oz, though.

    Not sure it’s worth a post. People have pointed out his 2+2=5 errors many times in the past, and he just keeps rattling them off as though people from the babylonians forward have been wrong about the answer.

  • Hansen's Bulldog // May 10, 2008 at 2:19 pm | Reply

    After hearing what other statements Tim Curtin has made, and seeing how ludicrous his statements made here about CO2 are, I’ve decided *not* to post a reply to his statements. I doubt he can be persuaded to face reality, and other readers don’t need a post about the obvious.

    So, it’s time to get to work on the post about PDO.

  • TCO // May 10, 2008 at 3:16 pm | Reply

    [Response: Is this a joke? It's hard to believe you're serious.

    I guess I'll have to do a post about it.]

    Does not follow. Doing a post to correct every fruit loop because he is serious about being a fruit loop is a thankless task.

    Instead you should complete some of the master’s thesis assignments that I toss out all the time. You will advance the science greatly, become wealthy and bag hot babes as a result.

  • dhogaza // May 10, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Reply

    All together, now:

    “Good call, HB!” :)

  • Fred Staples // May 12, 2008 at 5:44 pm | Reply

    “Try linear regression on the last 30 years of data”.
    I have, of course, done that, Tamino, and from every other year of the data as well.
    Working backwards from the present, the data is sufficient to establish significance before 1993. The trend line slopes peak at 0.63 degrees per decade from 1985, and from 1977 the slope is 0.48 degrees per decade, just as your smoothed data suggests.
    But what happens before that? There is nothing special about the last 30 years, even if it is the norm for climate science. As we go back to the 1940’s the temperatures flatten (the trend from the forties to the seventies is marginally down) and the regression from each year to the present reduces steadily. Two years earlier, from 1975, the trend is 0.39 per decade. From 1966 it is 0.3 degrees per decade. From 1950 it is 0.2 degrees per decade, and from 1943 it has fallen to 0.12 degrees per decade, or little more than one degree per century.
    Thereafter it continues to fall steadily to 0.053 degrees per decade from 1828, and it eventually settles down to less than 0.03 degrees per decade, little more than one quarter of a degree per century.
    You quote an increase, from the last 30 years, of 0.5 degrees per decade which is more than 15 times greater than the long term tend, more than double the short term trend from 1997, and double the trend from 1959, all to year 2007.
    Would you agree, Tamino, that without any physical explanation of the 30 year increase, and without any particular reason to choose that period, it would be absurd to suggest that your smoothed data can be extrapolated with any confidence into the future?

    [Response: You really have missed the point. The last 30 years are *different* from what came before it. The whole argument about the trend getting smaller as one goes further back in time is the absurd part -- it simply illustrates that the long-term behavior is nonlinear. Rather like a "hockey stick."

    As for a physical explanation of the 30 year increase, the reason you don't see it is that you don't want to.]

  • Hank Roberts // May 12, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Reply

    Fred, what you’re talking about isn’t CentralEngland, this is the whole world.

    Seen this?
    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi_2008.fig3.png

    Seen the news?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/science/earth/24brfs-GASESINATMOS_BRF.html
    http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080423_methane.html

    Warning, if you search NOAA’s news collection for “carbon dioxide rate” their news stories say the rate has gone down. They’re returning their 2005 stories.

    Search NOAA explicitly for “carbon dioxide rate 2008″ to get the current news.

  • Fred Staples // May 13, 2008 at 5:54 pm | Reply

    “The last 30 years are different from what came before it”
    Really, Tamino. Try these:
    Period Trend per decade Years
    1812 – 1834 0.65 22
    1838 – 1859 0.36 21
    1887 – 1914 0.32 27
    1922 – 1949 0.3 27

    All more than 10 times the long term trend.

    If you set your smoothing factors to the length of the periods, and stop at the period ends, you will generate a series of hockey sticks.

    In fact, from 1943 to 1963 you get quite an impressive stick with the blade in the opposite direction (20 years, -.34 degrees per decade).

    What is “different” about the period from 1978 to 1995 is not the steepness of the trend (0.58 degrees per decade in 27 years) but the fact that the temperatures did not fall back, as they had always done before. We shall see. The first 4 months of 2008 were 0.7 degrees colder than in 2007.

    [Response: You really do refuse to accept the truth, so much so that you'll grasp at anything that allows you to maintain your fantasy.

    Still you can only report one time interval with a larger rise rate than the last 30 yr, but that's for a 22-year period, not a 30-year period. Mainly you just ignore the real difference between the last 30 yr and those previous intervals, which isn't the rise rate, it's the temperature:

    interval ___ ending(peak)Temperature of regression line:
    1812-1834 ___ 9.9
    1838-1859 ___ 9.4
    1887-1914 ___ 9.6
    1922-1949 ___ 9.9
    1978-present ___ 10.7

    That's 0.8 deg.C warmer than any of the regression lines you cherry-picked in a foolish attempt to show that the last 30 yr are not different from what came before.

    I don't know what smoothing method you used to get a hockey stick ending in 1963, but when I run my method on a 20-yr time scale ending in 1963 there's a decline, which comes right after a preceding rise, but no hockey stick. In fact the smoothed curve ends at an anomaly of -0.05 deg.C (relative to the entire CET record), hardly enough deviation to make anything close to a hockey stick. Using a 30-yr time scale (as was done in the post) and ending in 1963 again shows a decline following a preceding rise, ending at an anomaly of -0.01 deg.C -- only a tiny deviation from the long-term CET average. But with a 30-yr time scale ending at the present day, the ending value is +1.5 deg.C (which is the same as the ending value of the 30-yr trend line for that time period).

    My guess is that you simply saw a decline (which followed a preceding rise) and decided that was good enough to call a hockey stick -- because again that enables you to maintain your fantasy-world belief.

    I don't know why, in the closing paragraph, you mention the time frame 1978 to 1995, which is only 17 years not 27. Maybe it's just a typo. But you really should look at 1978 to the present day.

    The silly comment about the first 4 months of 2008 really shows how desperate you must be to believe anything that supports your fantasy. Four whole months! What a trend!!!

    You should certainly choose one of the following: either give up your obstinate refusal to believe what's right in front of your eyes, or stop bothering the adults so we can continue our conversation.]

  • dhogaza // May 13, 2008 at 8:16 pm | Reply

    We could always vote Fred Staples off the island …

  • Hank Roberts // May 13, 2008 at 8:24 pm | Reply

    http://instantrimshot.com/

  • David B. Benson // May 16, 2008 at 12:36 am | Reply

    Possibly “Comparison between instrumental, observational and high resolution proxy sedimentary records of Late Holocene climatic change—a discussion of possibilities” is behind a paywall:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VGS-44RNN49-6&_user=137179&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000011439&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=137179&md5=048577e2a22413bf386ccd9898f56de3

    or

    doi:10.1016/S1040-6182(01)00071-4

    but I found it a most useful warning about attempting to find quasi-periods in instrumental and paleo proxy records. Sometimes the two are spliced together and CET is a prime candidate for attempting this.

    Nonetheless, I am not convinced that all the quasi-periods they allow through their critical analysis are anything more than short observation times on something better explained as a Poison process.

    All in all, a worth-while read. After reading this I’m fairly convinced that only wavelet-like analysis of the data is going to produce reliable results.

    [Response: I'm guessing you really mean "Poisson process" rather than "Poison process."]

  • David B. Benson // May 16, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Reply

    Tamino, aka “Hansen’s Bulldog”, responded “I’m guessing you really mean ‘Poisson process’ rather than ‘Poison process.’”

    Good guess. Right on.

  • David B. Benson // May 21, 2008 at 11:31 pm | Reply

    The question was raised whether the CET recently are as high as at any time in the Holocene. Fortunately, the CET record is long enough to overlap the GISP2 central Greenland temperatures by Alley, which end in 1850 CE. Using the 1629–1850 CE average temperatures for both data for adjustment, I obtained

    CET pre-1851 ave= 9.0 2007 CE temp= 10.4 GISP2 adjusted maxtemp= 12.3 (units are degrees Celcius)

    which suggests, but only suggests, that it was warmer in Britian during the Holocene Climatic Optimum. One could use pollen studies in England, or better, Scotland, to confirm this suggestion.

  • Crashex // May 22, 2008 at 4:08 pm | Reply

    Interesting discussion.

    I can see that plotting the data as an anomaly from a particular average is a common approach to evaluating this type of data. However, that method compounds the uncertainty of the displayed results, effectively doubling the absolute error. In this case the large uncertainties of the early data corrupt the more recent data by being part of the overall average applied as a baseline value.

    The uncertianty of your results are more than twice the estimates present for the individual temperature data. By averaging over longer and longer time frames your results fall into the overall uncertianty range of the data and can’t reasonably be used to draw relavent conclusions.

    The thirty year average suppresses the dramatic swing of the early data simply because those extremes were less than thirty years apart. The ten year average demonstrate that the recent trend is unprecedented, just not a dramatic enough change to sell the its-all-about-the-CO2 theory.

  • elspi // May 22, 2008 at 7:07 pm | Reply

    Crashex
    Back when I was a poor grad student, I was forced to teach bonehead math to pay the bills (rather a’ been cleaning toilets).
    One of the things I had to teach was how to graph the function $f(x) +c$ if you already had the graph of the function $f(x)$. This is a complicated and delicate procedure that involves carefully erasing the $x$- axis and moving it down (yes down) by $c$ units. This has the effect of raising the graph by $c$ units. (Go ahead give it a try if you don’t believe me). Notice how the SHAPE of the graph DOESN’T CHANGE at all.

    You should now apologize to the intertubes for wasting bandwidth with your post.

  • David B. Benson // May 22, 2008 at 9:55 pm | Reply

    This paper

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-492V398-7&_user=137179&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000011439&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=137179&md5=f44d8e8030398ab181c34889fde73166

    The temperature of Europe during the Holocene reconstructed from pollen data

    B. A. S. Davis, S. Brewer, A. C. Stevenson, J. Guiot and Data Contributors

    appears to be behind a paywall but other copies of it may be available on the net.

    From the entire paper, the evidence points strongly towards Britain now being at least as warm, and probably warmer than, any other time in the Holocene.

  • Crashex // May 23, 2008 at 12:50 am | Reply

    elspi, fortunately I never had to take “bonehead math” and had better instructors.

    Note, that my post never mentions the term “shape” at any point.

    The uncertainty in the plotted analysis is associated with both the average value used (the place the 0 line cuts through the “shape”) as well as the values used to create the “shape”. Hence the uncertainty of the illustration is greater than a plot that is not manipulated.

    Think of it this way. Assume t=8+/- 1. The actual range is 7 to 9. Add a thousond of similar t’s and divide by a thousand yields an average, call it 8A+/-1, again 7A to 9A. Now let’s find our anomaly range; 7-9A=-2 to 9A-7=+2. or 0+/-2.

    Gosh, that’s twice the original uncertainty range.
    (Because the measurement error is in both the 0 line and the shape).

    [Response: You're really missing the point. The goal is to discover how temperature has *changed*. The zero point makes absolutely no difference in estimating that; if the zero point were off by a million degrees, the difference between one year and another is unaffected. It's the shape of the curve that matters, not its absolute value.

    You also don't understand the fact that an average of a large number of values is far more precise than the values that go into it. If the uncertainty of each individual measurement is +/- 1, and a thousand values go into the average, then the uncertainty of the average itself is +/- 1 over the square root of 1000, or about 0.0316. But it really doesn't matter, because no matter the size of the error in the average there's no effect on the difference between different time spans.

    You also don't understand how to compute the probable error in the sum or difference of two terms. If the first term has probable error "a" and the second has probable error "b", then the probable error in their sum or difference is not a+b, it's the square root of a^2+b^2. This too doesn't really matter, because no matter the size of the error in the average there's no effect on the difference between different time spans. Using anomalies instead of absolute temperatures only changes the labels on the temperature axis, it has no effect on estimates of how much temperature has changed from one time span to another.

    This is *very basic* statistics. It sounds like you didn't take any math at all, bonehead or otherwise.]

  • Tenney Naumer // May 23, 2008 at 4:40 am | Reply

    Dear Dave,

    Why don’t they just call it a stinky fish process and get it over with?

  • Eli Rabett // May 23, 2008 at 8:06 am | Reply

    crash davis is also missing the point about why anomalies are used. Since they are the change in temperature from a baseline, they allow comparison of temperature changes at different points, for example Greenland and Australia.

  • bobclive // May 27, 2008 at 7:22 pm | Reply

    What I cannot get into my head is why would anyone want to compare say Tokio with a large UHI effect against its rural neighbour which has no such effect then mathematically try to tease out the UHI effect from the urban data instead of using the clean rural data in the first place.

    Perhaps someone might explain, please.

  • David B. Benson // May 27, 2008 at 10:49 pm | Reply

    bobclive // May 27, 2008 at 7:22 pm — I’ll try, although there are others who understand this much better than I.

    First of all, the oldest records are in places which, over time, become more urbanized. Some attempt is made to remove the more modern UHI so as to preserve the continuity of the record.

    The other reason I can see is so that each temperature recording only has to stand for as little land area as possible.

  • Gavin's Pussycat // May 28, 2008 at 2:48 am | Reply

    bobclive, David: the reason is very simple and widely underappreciated. We are not just interested in the long-term trend of the temperature, but in its complete temporal behaviour, including variations from month to month, year to year, etc. In other words, we want not only to obtain an estimate of so-and-so many degrees over the last century, but also draw a pretty curve ;-)

    This is why the trend of the urban station is replaced by one estimated from surrounding rural stations, effectively throwing the urban trend away from the data — but preserving the detailed variations on shorter time scales.

    (More precisely, in the GIStemp reduction the trend removed consists of two pieces, with a “knee” inbetween, to more realistically represent the accelerating urbanization.)

    There is at least one study (Peterson et al 1997? IIRC, Geophysical Research Letters) showing the difference between the used approach, and strictly using rural stations only (by both the census and the “night lights” criterion) to be small, well within the noise — both for long-term trend values and “pretty curves” :-)

  • Gavin's Pussycat // May 28, 2008 at 3:20 am | Reply

    http://www.agu.org/pubs/abs/gl/1998GL900322/tmp.html

    Unfortunately paywalled.

  • George Ray // May 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm | Reply

    “This will bring CET to heights unknown for at least 350 years, probably several thousand years, and in all likelihood warmth not seen since humans inhabited the British Isles.”

    Tamino, if this happens, when do you believe the earth was last this warm?

  • David B. Benson // May 28, 2008 at 8:54 pm | Reply

    George Ray // May 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm — First of all, just because central England is now at least as warm as at anytime during the Holocene (and probably warmer) does not mean that the global annual temperature is. By two estimates, it is. By one estimate this won’t happen for 2 or 3 more decades.

    In any case, the previous interglacial, the Eem about 125,000, was several degrees warmer than the Holocene (and also the sea highstand was about 5 meters higher than at present).

  • George Ray // May 30, 2008 at 2:37 am | Reply

    David B. Benson // May 28, 2008 at 8:54 pm – Thanks David.

    David/Tamino: So that I understand … it is unclear that the earth is currently warmer than during the Holocene, however, the earth is definitely cooler and the sea levels approx. 5m lower than during the Eem period? On average, how many degrees warmer was the earth during the Eem?

    [Response: It's hard to be precise, because reconstructing global temperature over 100,000 years ago is even harder than reconstructing it a mere 1,000 years ago. Vostok ice core data indicates temperatures in Antarctica at the height of the Eemian were about 3 deg.C warmer than today, which would translate to a global temperature about 1.5 deg.C warmer. We may well surpass the Eemian temperatures this century.]

  • George Ray // May 30, 2008 at 4:12 am | Reply

    Thanks Tamino.

    What science/math is used to translate the 3 deg. C warmer from the Antarctica to the global average of 1.5 deg. C warmer (in the Eem). Also … what caused the earth to be warmer during Eem than it is today and why were the sea levels higher?

    I am new to this and your help in understanding is greatly appreciated.

  • Fred Staples // July 7, 2008 at 7:30 pm | Reply

    Comments seem to have ceased, Tamino, which is a pity because we now have data for the first half year in 2008.
    The average temperature for the half year is 0.82 degrees C below the same period in 2007.
    Working backwards from June, 2008, we have to go back to October 1993 to find a significant upward trend. As the relatively cold months accumulate at the end of the record, so the start point for significance will recede. It is inexorable. Remember that 1990 and 1989 were respectively the 2nd and 8th warmest years in the record. Before long, we will have 20 years without a significantly increasing trend.
    You can see a similar effect in the UAH satellite data for the global record, where temperatures are now at 1996 levels. The global trend from August 2002 to date is now significantly negative.
    I have only recently chanced upon your explanation of the lapse rate, on which you rightly say that the AGW hypothesis depends. I have added a comment based on Barton Levenson’s paper on Saturation, mentioned at RealClimate.

  • cce // July 7, 2008 at 9:10 pm | Reply

    The first 6 months of 2008 are 0.6 degrees warmer than the first 6 months of 2006. 2006 went on to be the warmest year in the history of CET. Maybe 2008 will turn out to be a cold in Central England. Or maybe not.

  • Fred Staples // July 8, 2008 at 12:40 pm | Reply

    What do those graphs show? Oh my! An upward movement at the end of the data record!!!
    My note on the current temperatures, CCE, was designed only to remind Tamino of his comment, above, which I think he posted more in anger than in sorrow. He was suggesting an upward movement of 0.5 degrees this decade from about 10.5 degrees at the start. Time is running out.
    The fundamental point is Tamino’s often repeated assertion that the last 30 years in the record are different from anything that has occurred before. To avoid the arbitrary nature of the start point I suggested working backwards from the current monthly data to identify the start of a significant trend.
    Currently the start of a significant trend is October 1993. If (and no-one can know) relatively cold months continue to accumulate that date will go back, and the nature of the record (two warm years in 1989 and 1990) means that it will go back rather rapidly.
    The last 30 years are different from many previous warming episodes because the temperatures from 1995 (the end of the original 1978 to 1995 increase) did not fall back. It will be many years before we find out, but the current satellite global data does suggest that temperatures are falling.

  • Fred Staples // August 7, 2008 at 11:46 am | Reply

    Another month passes, Tamino, and the monthly average for the first seven months of 2008 is now 0.56 degrees C below the corresponding period in 2007.

    We seem to be heading for an annual average of about 10 degrees C, which would be about the 40th warmest year in the record.

    Are you still expecting an upward movement of 0.5 degrees this decade?

    There has been much comment elsewhere on serial correlation in the global temperature data, prohibiting the use of monthly data for significance testing. The serial correlation in this data is negligible (which will not surprise anyone who lives here – our temperatures depend on which way the wind blows).

    Do you think that the serial correlation in the global monthly data is a real effect?

    Do you

    [Response: Apparently you're having trouble telling the difference between "seven months" and "decade," as well as the difference between "trend" and "fluctuation." The standard deviation of 7-month averages in CET is over 0.6 deg.C, so a fluctuation of 0.5 deg.C for a given 7-month period is nothing out of the ordinary.

    Serial correlation in global monthly data is a fact.

    I suggest you leave numerical analysis to those who actually have a clue.]

  • Gavin's Pussycat // August 7, 2008 at 2:28 pm | Reply

    George Ray: polar amplification. When the Earth warms up due pretty much to any increase in forcing, the poles warm up more than lower latitudes, and land more than sea, by a ratio of roughly 2x. This was an original finding already by Arrhenius:

    http://www.globalwarmingart.com/images/1/18/Arrhenius.pdf

    see figure VII.

    About the Eemian, my understanding is that it was Milankovich forcing (Earth orbit eccentricity, axis tilt and their interactions) that made it warmer then. And sea level was higher then mainly due to smaller continental ice sheets.

    http://cires.colorado.edu/events/lectures/dahljensen/

    Note that due to the longer duration, the glaciation state during the Eemian was near equilibrium for that temperature. This is not the case for the present anthropogenic transient.

  • Steve Berry // August 7, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Reply

    Sorry, but if you tell most English people that England is getting warmer they’ll just laugh. I realise that this is totally unscientific and I’ll attract arrows for it, but we here, actually living in England, (for decades!) simply don’t recognise the CET at all. And by that, I mean we don’t feel it any warmer. We can’t help but feel that this is all the UIHE. Yes, we’ve had early Springs, but then we’ve had late ones too. Summer seems wetter of late, and Winters are certainly not as cold for the past few years. But we don’t recognise that damned graph! We had a VERY cool June, and July even saw some heating systems being put back on! Totally unscientific, blah, blah blah – few years of data against trends, blah, blah, blah. I’m telling you that the data doesn’t match actuality. When I saw the July CET figure…well, how I laughed. I’d bet my car on it being totally and completely false. All scepticism and denialist behaviour to one side Tamino, it simply stretches credulity like a rubber band.

    Raise the UIHE flag!

    [Response: I think you're guilty of a *very* selective memory. I saw a news story (from BBC news, not HadCRU) about July 19 (of this year) being the hottest July day in England *ever*; schools were forced to close because of the "unbearable heat." The hottest temperature ever recorded in England, July or not, appears to have been as recent as 2003. This last winter, UPI announced in January that the exceptionally mild winter in England was causing daffodils to bloom months earlier than usual, and the Kew Botanical Gardens (just outside London) was concerned over changes in behavior observed since the 1980s in more than 75% of plant species whose biological patterns depend on temperature.

    Global warming doesn't mean an end to weather; there will still be unusually hot times and unusually cold times, but the hot ones get more frequent and more severe, the cold ones less so. It seems to me that you're noting the cool and forgetting about the warm. It's an extraordinarily common pattern in "anecdotal" evidence, to emphasize events that agree with your preferred beliefs while forgetting those that disagree.

    As for me, I trust thermometers more than feelings, numbers more than adjectives, and I'm definitely more interested in climate than weather. I suggest you do the same, because the thermometers and the trends are unequivocal. If you don't want to accept CET, take a look at other temperature records from England.]

  • Steve Berry // August 8, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Reply

    Hello Tamino. Well, I don’t know how the BBC managed to cock that one up, but it’s two years out of date – it was July 19, 2006. I take your point about how we ‘feel’ it to be. And yes, we did have an early Spring last year – and a late one this year! Daffs tend to be based on the Winter. They emerge in Winter, but can be held back by late cold weather. If there isn’t any then they bloom in early Spring (I’m a gardener!). I know it’s only weather, but let me give you a taster of what we’re experiencing – despite what the past few years have been: Today it was 16 degrees C where I live. Usually, on this date, we can expect 26! We’ve had two years of this now, and we can’t wait for bloody global warming mate!

    [Response: Do you really not get it? Do you really expect us to believe a claim about climate change based on the statement that it was colder than usual today? Yet we should ignore 350 years of numerical data from scientific instruments?]

  • Hank Roberts // August 8, 2008 at 3:50 pm | Reply

    Tamino, he’s messing with you.

    Any time you find yourself astonished at someone’s apparent naivete or lack of understanding, you should hear my voice saying “ding!” (wry grin).

    It’s a mistake to assume that everyone is sincere.
    Google first when you get a new one who seems utterly unaware.

    “Quoted name” +climate audit watt

    (no plus before audit) will find most regular copypasters who use consistent names, without too many false positives. There are a few other regular sites you could add.

    There’s really no point satisfying them by getting irate. They just want to waste your time.

    Right now, wasting the time of any scientist willing to give them attention is a political tactic, for those who want to put off any scientific work.

    “Delay is the deadliest form of denial.”

    They’re not just messing with you.

    They’re delaying your book and your work.

    No patience is the right response.

    Google helps find out who’s not your friend.

  • Steve Berry // August 8, 2008 at 6:35 pm | Reply

    I say, Hank. Go on, give us a clue what the hell you are on about! I googled that. The first one is actually Steve Beery (perhaps you should have tried it yourself – duh), and the second one (on Watt’s Up) isn’t there!

    I only came on here to mention a few words about the CET – which and my work colleagues don’t recognise. And now I’m what, part of a conspiracy?

    Tell you what Hank, tip for you, cotton buds should be withdrawn when they meet resistance.

  • Hank Roberts // August 8, 2008 at 8:54 pm | Reply

    True, Q-tips can cause deafness and bleeding from the ears.
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

  • Hank Roberts // August 8, 2008 at 9:09 pm | Reply

    And yes, Mr. Berry may not be the person who regularly posts under that name on the denial sites. None of us can tell for sure without knowing the IP address used. Coincidences do happen.

    Regardless, naive questions that can be easily answered by looking them up online waste time.

  • kfr // August 11, 2008 at 3:36 pm | Reply

    Despite what mr Berry may claim, according to the BBC weather pages except for april every month appears to be average or above:

    Mean temperatures ranging from 1 deg C above average across parts of northern Scotland to over 3 deg C above average across the Midlands and East Anglia. Provisionally it was the 4th warmest January for England in the areal series dating back to 1914.

    Mean temperatures generally 2 to 3 °C above average across England, Wales and Scotland, but only around 1 to 1.5 °C above average across Northern Ireland. (Feb)

    Mean temperatures generally 2 to 3 deg C above average, but only 1 to 2 deg C above average across eastern parts of Scotland and NE England.
    Provisionally, the warmest May in the series back to 1914 for the UK,

    Mean temperatures ranged from close to average across SW England and S Wales to over 1°C above average across Scotland. (July)

  • Fred Staples // August 22, 2008 at 11:58 am | Reply

    So, Tamino, the persistence of the global temperature anomaly is a fact, worthy of bold type. To a Physicist it is a surprising fact, given the difficulty of measuring the anomaly and the vast array of factors which influence it, but it is certainly true that the monthly global data, regressed against itself from 2001 with a lapse of one month gives a correlation coefficient of 0.65 with an astronomical significance.
    You can consequently state that cooling this decade is insufficient to detect a trend (or falsify a forecast) because 7 annual data points are not enough to establish significance.
    However, the sceptic is entitled to ask at what period of global average temperatures the serial correlation ceases to be significant. The answer is 4 months (correlation .34 significance 0.14)
    From July 2001 there are only 21 four-monthly periods to date, but there is a distinct downward trend of 0.023 degrees centigrade per year. Is that significantly different from zero. Not quite. There is about one chance in 13 of a trend so large arising by chance, given the variability of the data.
    However, we are entitled to ask another question. At the 95% significance level, what are the upper and lower bounds of the trend.
    The answer is -.05 degrees per annum to +.003 degrees per annum, and there is only 1 chance in 20 that the real trend lies outside that range. UAH are currently observing a maximum possible temperature trend of 0.3 degrees per century.
    Common sense tells us that it is impossible to falsify a warming theory from so short a trend, even when the cooling reaches statistical significance. However, a glance at the UAH plot also tells us that no-one would have worried about the warming trend without the sharp increase (about 0.7 degrees) between 1999 and 2001 which was sustained, more or less, until 2007.
    As Roy Spencer says, the next few years will be interesting.

    Incidentally, Tamino, would you agree that there is no trace of serial correlation in this CET data.?

    [Response: There are so many things wrong with your analysis, one hardly knows where to begin. For one thing, autocorrelation of global average temperature does not cease to be significant with 4-month averages; you can only support that claim by taking such a brief time span that you sabotage any hope of a significant result. In fact autocorrelation is significant even for annual averages. For another thing, starting an analysis in July 2001 is a *most extreme* example of cherry-picking. This doesn't just bias the result, it affects the statistics strongly; essentially you're computing, not the trend, but the *most extreme* trend you can find, for which the statistics are most extremely different.

    Listen carefully: you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you to resort to 4-month averages since July 2001 to get a result which you think contradicts global warming. To the rest of us the answer is obvious: because that's the answer you want, and you'll keep trying different time spans until you believe you've got the answer you want.

    As for CET data, they do in fact show autocorrelation. In the monthly data it's quite evident, in the annual data it's too small to measure -- but that doesn't mean it's not there.]

  • Fred Staples // September 7, 2008 at 8:07 pm | Reply

    Another month passes, Tamino, with an average CETemperature of 16.2 degrees C, the 98th warmest August in the record.

    If we assume that the last 4 months of the year will record the same temperatures as last year, the 12 month moving average gives an estimate of 10.22 degrees C, which would be slightly colder than 1945, the 23rd warmest year in the record.

    With 1 year and 4 months to go, do you still believe that we will see an up-tick of 0.5 degrees C this decade?

    As for global data selection, if you look at the UAH plot the following trends are clearly visible. There was no significant increase from 1978 until December 1996. There followed the sharp rise and fall of the 1998 El Nino, and the subsequent increase of 0.6 degrees from December 1999 to January 2002 – a period of 25 months.

    What was surprising was not the increase, which was not unusual, but the fact that it did not immediately fall back – hence the “recent years are the warmest in the record” quotes.

    However, over the last few years average temperatures have fallen sharply, and the downward trend from 2001 is close to statistical significance, (based on 4-monthly temperature averages to avoid serial correlation). Current temperatures are back to 1978 levels.

  • dhogaza // September 7, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Reply

    Fred Staples discovers La Niña! Quick, someone tell climate scientists about this phenomena.

  • P. Lewis // September 8, 2008 at 12:20 am | Reply

    Ooh! Look. Fred Staples says:

    However, over the last few years average temperatures have fallen sharply, the downward trend from 2001 is close to statistical significance …

    Translation: my figures are not statistically significant.

    Oh my gosh! I’ve just thought of something else. The August 2008 CET average of 16.2°C is actually the warmest August for 3 whole years! And that follows on from the July average CET of 16.2°C being warmer than July 2007.

    What does it all mean? Ah! Yes! Weather!

  • cce // September 8, 2008 at 2:16 am | Reply

    The average temperature of the first 7 months of 2008 is tied for 35th place out of the 350 years in the CET analysis. 2006, which went on to be the hottest year on record, is tied for 39th place if you look only at the first seven months. Clearly, this means nothing.

    Furthermore, the slope since 2001 is not negative for either the average yearly temperatures, or the first seven months.

  • cce // September 8, 2008 at 2:17 am | Reply

    Sorry, that should be the first 8 months.

  • Fred Staples // September 9, 2008 at 6:57 pm | Reply

    Weather, Mr Lewis, is what we live with. The regional, global, and long-run averages like the CET data are accumulations of weather. The data is always of interest to meteorologists (who try to forecast weather) and there are undoubtedly many superimposed cycles which those who business it is try to tease out from the randomly fluctuating data.

    However, Tamino, and many others climate scientists, believe that there is a forcing signal behind all the weather cycles and random fluctuations which results in a slight but steady warming of the planetary surface in line with atmospheric CO2 concentrations.

    If true, this will lead to a massive and necessary upheaval in our use of energy across the planet. If false it will lead to a ludicrous waste of resources.

    Tamino states that “The rate of warming in CET since 1980 is 0.05 +/- 0.02 deg.C/yr, or half a degree C per decade”. He believes this increase will occur this decade, (“Oh My, the trend over the last ten years is 0.5 degrees per decade”) which would bring the annual average to about 11 degrees centigrade before January 2010, 16 months from now. There has never been so high an average. In fact, only in 44 years has the temperature exceeded 10 degrees C. Half of these years were before 1943, and half after.

    The trend across this decade is 0.275 degrees C, but it is not significantly different from zero.
    The trend increase from 1980, 0.455 degrees per decade, is highly significant, but the increase is no different from many similar episodes in the record.

    What is different is that the sharp temperature increase from 1980 to 1997 did not immediately fall back, as had happened after other increases. It will be many years before we find out, but the current satellite global data does suggest that global temperatures are falling. Current global temperatures are back to 1978 levels, which were the trough from the previous peak in the forties.

  • Fred Staples // October 3, 2008 at 7:44 pm | Reply

    Yet another month passes, Tamino, with an average CETemperature of 13.5 degrees C, the 159th warmest September in the record.

    If we assume that the last 3 months of the year will record the same temperatures as last year, the 12 month moving average gives an estimate of 10.19 degrees C, which would be slightly colder than 1781, the 25th warmest year in the record.

    Including this estimate, we have to go back to 1988, 20 years, before the rate of temperature increase is significantly greater than zero.

    With 1 year and 3 months to go, do you still believe that we will see an up-tick of 0.5 degrees C this decade?

  • Fred Staples // November 12, 2008 at 10:07 pm | Reply

    The October CET average was 9.7degrees, Tamino, the 174th warmest October in the record.

    The 12 month moving average is 10.09 degrees. If this is the 2008 average it will be the 26th warmest year in the record, slotting in between 1911 and 1921.

    Including this estimate, we have to go back to 1988, 20 years, before the rate of temperature increase is significantly greater than zero.

    With 1 year and 2 months to go, do you still believe that we will see an up-tick of 0.5 degrees C this decade? And do you believe that it is possible to forecast any forward temperatures from statistical form fitting?

  • cce // November 13, 2008 at 5:10 am | Reply

    The rate of warming from 1988 to 2008 is 0.28 degrees per decade (Nov-Oct year) which is, needless to say, significantly greater than zero.

    The last equivalent period that was colder than the preceding 12 months was in 2001, which, incidentally happens to be the last time there was a signifcant La Nina.

  • John Finn // November 13, 2008 at 1:22 pm | Reply

    cce

    Why do you refer to the La Nina events (i.e. 2001 and recent) but not to the fact that El Ninos considerably outnumbered La Ninas between 1988 and 2007.

  • Ray Ladbury // November 13, 2008 at 2:36 pm | Reply

    John Finn, Uh… maybe because those were not equivalent periods where temps were lower than the previous 12 months?

  • t_p_hamilton // November 13, 2008 at 3:54 pm | Reply

    “Why do you refer to the La Nina events (i.e. 2001 and recent) but not to the fact that El Ninos considerably outnumbered La Ninas between 1988 and 2007.”

    Because he was rebutting Fred Staples’ cooling argument that talks about 1 year cooling as if it meant anything.

  • cce // November 13, 2008 at 4:14 pm | Reply

    http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/people/klaus.wolter/MEI/ts.gif

    The reason for the relatively cold temperatures of 2008 and 2001 is La Nina. “Relative” to recent temperatures, not to the HadCET record. The last 12 months are quite warm — warmer than 90% of equivalent periods. 2006 is the hottest year in the history of HadCET, yet as you can clearly see, the positive ENSO anomaly is hardly a record.

  • cce // November 13, 2008 at 4:18 pm | Reply

    The second sentence (fragment) should be “‘Relative’ to recent temperatures not to the entire HadCET record.”

  • pkm // December 4, 2008 at 2:37 am | Reply

    Was looking for analysis on the CET data and came across your site. Nice job, with some interesting observations followed by the usual crazy mix of comments that plaque every climate discussion website.

    What strikes me about the very first ‘raw data’ chart is that the present warming trend (lets say, over the last two decades) appears to be predominantly a result of warmer winter months with much less, if any, influence from the summer months? In fact winter months with an average temperature of <2.5C have disappeared from the record during this period. Could you confirm this and is this predicted by climate modeling for this region? Is there a known root cause for this disparity.

    [Response: I'll take a look. I do know that there's generally greater winter warming than summer warming; I've noticed it in several long temperature records (like Stockholm, Sweden) but I haven't looked for that specifically in CET.]

  • jyyh // December 4, 2008 at 9:26 am | Reply

    Sorry to be such an alarmist view on this post, but yes, you’re probably right, enjoy the cooling effect of Greenland melting…

  • David B. Benson // December 4, 2008 at 7:45 pm | Reply

    pkm // December 4, 2008 at 2:37 am — Globally, warmer winters are a prediction of AGW. Climate models (GCMs) not required.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 4, 2008 at 10:05 pm | Reply

    4 paramaters allows modeling an elephant. And the 5th allows wiggling his trunk, no?

    Given the models are not capable of good short term (several year, decade) type of predictions (El Nino and the like), how sure can we be that they will really properly predict centennial scale changes? Certainly we don’t have the luxury of out of sample testing on that scale.

    I think the supports for AGW, most strong are

    1. Co-happening of CO2 rise with temp rise in 20th century.

    2. Inuitive effect of CO2 as a greenhouse gas as well as simplifying assumption of constant relative humidity percent for amplifying feedback.
    ———————————————–

    These are strong enough that I would “Bayesian bet” on AGW readily.

    But the model kerfuffle seems like a bunch of make-work and paid jobs for Gavinoids (no offense, I know you all love him like a brother.)

  • TCOisbanned? // December 4, 2008 at 10:15 pm | Reply

    ooops. I meant that last comment to go in the other one with modeling and Lazar and all. Drinking….

  • David B. Benson // December 4, 2008 at 10:37 pm | Reply

    TCOisbanned? // December 4, 2008 at 10:05 pm — There is now quite a bit of paleoclimate data. GCMs are run against it. Do rather well on centennial scales with rather recent data; LIA is an example.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 5, 2008 at 2:14 am | Reply

    Do you run them against Moburg and Esper? Or Mann and Briffa? and thye got some honking error bars on paleoclimate. how much statistical validation is there really. Plus it’s not an out of sample test. Not predictive. As the modelers and paleo people are tight…and share insights. Not a double blind shot of medecine and placebo.

  • dhogaza // December 5, 2008 at 8:10 am | Reply

    Given the models are not capable of good short term (several year, decade) type of predictions (El Nino and the like), how sure can we be that they will really properly predict centennial scale changes? Certainly we don’t have the luxury of out of sample testing on that scale.

    Geez, you of all people should understand the difference between being able to accurately predict short-term variability vs. long-term trend.

    While GCMs don’t predict exactly when the next ENSO event will occur, they do arise within the models. Your complaint is no different than stating “climatologists can’t predict which day in July will be the hottest of the year, therefore their models that show that July on average is warmer than January on average (in the NH) can’t be trusted”.

    You know better.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 5, 2008 at 5:30 pm | Reply

    I accept the difference. You think I am making a point different from what I’m making. I can accept that a model might be good at long, but incapable of short because of aspects of the system (chaos, resolution, etc.). That’s fine.

    The point I’m making is that we don’t have OUT OF SAMPLE, proved prediction, SINCE we haven’t had enough time yet to evaluate the models over the time-frame for which they are alleged effective.

    Please, give me a little credit yap-dhog and direct your little bites towards the typical hoi polloi who are more your own speed anyhow.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 5, 2008 at 5:33 pm | Reply

    Also note that if we ACCEPT (both sides and not making anything evil of it) that the models can’t do a good job of predicting a couple years out…WHAT’S the point of the 2010 prediction from 2007?

    Let’s drop the rhetoric games and THINK!

    I see this similar to the disconnect denialists have of touting LTP while noting 1998-2008.

  • dhogaza // December 5, 2008 at 7:31 pm | Reply

    I accept the difference. You think I am making a point different from what I’m making. I can accept that a model might be good at long, but incapable of short because of aspects of the system (chaos, resolution, etc.). That’s fine.

    Please, give me a little credit yap-dhog and direct your little bites towards the typical hoi polloi who are more your own speed anyhow.

    Well … nice to see you’re drunk again.

    Since you were discussing a short-term modeling prediction, can you give a cite? Unless I’m seriously mistaken, you’re talking about something that I’m aware of, and that was not done using the GCMs run out to longer-term timeframes.

    But, of course, since I’m not of your speed, since you’re clearly much more intelligent than I, I’m sure I’m misunderstanding you, am incapable of understanding you, and will end up certainly apologizing for assuming you were talking about what I think you’re talking about.

    But this …

    WHAT’S the point of the 2010 prediction from 2007?

    Makes me think that perhaps you’re not quite as all-knowing as you think you are? Though alcohol is known to have that kind of effect on people …

  • t_p_hamilton // December 5, 2008 at 7:48 pm | Reply

    TCO:”Also note that if we ACCEPT (both sides and not making anything evil of it) that the models can’t do a good job of predicting a couple years out…WHAT’S the point of the 2010 prediction from 2007?”

    It merely says what we all know. Coming out of a La Nina, and the fact that the underlying forcing is linear, and that the noise in the recent years has been below the linear trend, statistically beating those temperatures is very likely.

  • Ray Ladbury // December 5, 2008 at 8:26 pm | Reply

    TCO, Actually, I think the 2007 prediction does have relevance, as it is saying that in the short term, “noise” is likely to dominate. Understanding noise is important to understanding the signal as well.

  • luminous beauty // December 5, 2008 at 9:02 pm | Reply

    The point I’m making is that we don’t have OUT OF SAMPLE, proved prediction, SINCE we haven’t had enough time yet to evaluate the models over the time-frame for which they are alleged effective.

    This assumes that 21st century GCM simulations are statistical models, i.e., best fit correlations of past performance extrapolated to predict future performance.

    I’m sure you’ve read this an hundred times; GCMs are not statistical models. They are physical models. The inputs are not correlation coefficients, but physical quantities.

    They can be validated against any prior time frame for which real world measurements of those inputs (and measurements of output variables) are available either directly, as historically collected data, or otherwise can be reasonably inferred (proxy data).

  • TCOisbanned? // December 5, 2008 at 10:31 pm | Reply

    a prediction of 2010 from 2007 is irrelevant. The tool is not capable of skillful infernces here. It is (hopefully) capable of infernces on a 30 year time scale. So a story about a plateu being predicted is just….ODD. It’s like these folks lack critical thinking skills about what tools are good for what things. And the person who brought it up here as well.

    This would be much better if I just straightened you all out. Remember, Jolliffe loves me. I ask good questions and make people think. You might not enjoy the experience as Socratic training can be fatiguing and demeaning. But screw that, you’d be better for it in the end.

    [Response: The "prediction" is not the ironclad claim of foretelling the future that it's too often made out to be. It's just a report of the latest attempt to improve predictive ability. The authors make no outlandish claims about its prescience, they're well aware of the limitations of short-term predictions. I posted about it here.

    Rather than trying to "straighten us all out," you might try getting off the high horse.]

  • David B. Benson // December 5, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Reply

    TCOisbanned? // December 5, 2008 at 10:31 pm — Read and understand A. Abe-Ouchi, T. Segawa, F. Saito Clim. Past Discuss., 3, 301-336, 2007

    http://www.cosis.net/members/journals/df/article.php?a_id=5292

    for a really long GCM run, from the Eemian to the Holocene.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 2:55 am | Reply

    Tammy, skimmed your post and you had similar reaction as me. Good. Hank or whoever the oompa loomp here was, who brought it up was not as insightful as either of us. [edit]

  • TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 2:56 am | Reply

    Could you place me on the approved immediately list if there is such a one?

  • TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 3:19 am | Reply

    Benson, I looked at that paper.

  • Ray Ladbury // December 6, 2008 at 3:27 am | Reply

    TCO think about it: The reason you cannot reliably discuss trends on time series less than 30 years is because “noise” can predominate on such timescales. Now you have a study tha PREDICTS a period where such noise is likely to be dominant. Maybe they were lucky. However, maybe they are starting to understand some of the sources of noise. This could allow them to better model them and so better discern trends. THAT is significant.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 5:45 am | Reply

    I get that the tool is not effective for periods less than 30 years. The problem with the press touting of the plateau prediction as well as whoever touted it here is that you can’t make short term predictions cause noise dominates. Duh. Stop explaining things to me like I’m a step behind you. I’m brighter than you.

  • David B. Benson // December 6, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Reply

    TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 5:45 am — Re: your least sentence.

    Haven’t demonstrated it sofar.

    Do recall that this is a low-bandwidth communication methoed. Easy for misunderstandings to arise.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 10:33 pm | Reply

    Go start your own fights.

  • David B. Benson // December 7, 2008 at 12:36 am | Reply

    TCOisbanned? // December 6, 2008 at 10:33 pm — I attempt to promote understanding; I do my best to avoid fights.

  • Ray Ladbury // December 7, 2008 at 1:12 am | Reply

    When you’re not drinking at least, maybe?

  • Hank Roberts // December 7, 2008 at 2:22 am | Reply

    Well bless your heart, TCO.

    John Finn, in another topic not long ago, said he felt nobody took the idea of a temperature plateau seriously.

    I pointed to the Hadley modelers’ paper a while back suggesting it’d be happening. We’re seeing something like that now; if they prove right also about its duration, we’ll see an end to the episode soon — if the statistics can handle the short term with the mass of data they’re using.
    Remains to be seen, I guess.

    I agree with you about Tamino’s insight, and should’ve remembered he’d covered it long since.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 7, 2008 at 1:51 pm | Reply

    Hank: Kisses. Hug.

  • Hank Roberts // December 7, 2008 at 3:34 pm | Reply

    Quick, hand me that alcohol …

  • Ray Ladbury // December 7, 2008 at 4:09 pm | Reply

    Hank, I’d use bleach…

  • Hank Roberts // December 7, 2008 at 8:11 pm | Reply

    Nah, too much collateral damage with bleach.

  • TCOisbanned? // December 7, 2008 at 9:30 pm | Reply

    Here’s a game to play: list who/what you like about someone on the “other side” from you. Points off if you devolve to any sniping or negative things inserted. (Can you make this an independant thread on the board, Tammy?)

    Warmers:

    Gavin: bright. polymath.
    Tammy: Doesn’t ban me that much. Let’s skeptics speak. Does math.
    Mike: Well…he did try doing a very extensive “meta-review” and put it out there for people to mess with. Knows some hard math.
    Hank: Pleasant.
    Ray: Calm.
    Dhog: Defends his friends.

  • dhogaza // December 8, 2008 at 9:23 am | Reply

    TCO: probably a fun guy with whom to toss a few down the hatch, as long as you don’t touch on any subject that threatens his political world view.

  • luminous beauty // December 8, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Reply

    I like TCO’s sense of humor.

    “I’m brighter than you.”

    Side-splitting funny.

  • assman // June 29, 2009 at 3:34 pm | Reply

    “This assumes that 21st century GCM simulations are statistical models, i.e., best fit correlations of past performance extrapolated to predict future performance.”

    No it assumes you have some wisdom about the scientific process. You never test a theory with the same data that was used to develop it or suggest it. This is basic common sense.

  • assman // June 29, 2009 at 3:43 pm | Reply

    ” Second, the cooling effect of anthropogenic aerosol emissions is very real.”

    Ah no. He could believe that sulfate aerosols do cause cooling and yet also believe that the magnitude of the cooling is not sufficient to explain the cooling trend.

  • NikFromNYC // November 27, 2009 at 6:16 am | Reply

    Evidence of FAKE GRAPHS HERE:

    http://i45.tinypic.com/fwknyh.jpg

  • NikFromNYC // November 27, 2009 at 9:14 am | Reply

    http://i50.tinypic.com/7uib.jpg

  • NikFromNYC // November 27, 2009 at 3:51 pm | Reply

    I was not aware of the use of centered averages and will now eat crow.

  • TrueSceptic // November 28, 2009 at 9:07 pm | Reply

    Nevertheless, Nik is again claiming that
    Tamino has faked his CET graphs

    THAT’S HOW WARM EARTHERS
    LIE WITH STATISTICS

    Looks like this Dunning-Kruger subject needs some lessons in:-
    1. Basic stats;
    2. Knowing when not to make false accusations.

  • Hank Roberts // December 2, 2009 at 3:47 pm | Reply

    C’mon, he’s another red herring. Don’t chase stuff just because it smells. Chase stuff worth chasing.
    His isn’t.

  • merve kayhan // December 23, 2009 at 6:31 pm | Reply

    I have a project that is about global warming in England. I have data for 1723-1970 but i did not find the rest of it. Central England data is very different from it, so i cant use it. coul you help me to find the temperature data in England from 1970 to 2008.

  • Hank Roberts // December 23, 2009 at 6:46 pm | Reply

    Merve, you need to distinguish between “global warming” (global) and “in England” (not global).

    What data do you have now?

    You might want to check
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/wheres-the-data/

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