A reader calling himself “Raven” recently linked to this page by Hans Erren which graphs some central European temperature records going back to the 1700s. It features this graph:
This shows annual average temperature for five central European cities. The data are stated to be from GISS, but since the GISS website no longer provides data prior to 1880 the author links to the GHCN version 1 where the early data are still available.
The scale of the graph is not for all these data sets; Erren has offset some of them so that they align with each other. The alignment is indeed quite good, showing how strongly temperature changes in nearby locations correlate with each other. In effect, any one of the data series contains almost all the information in the five data sets. But Erren has also adjusted some of the five stations to match his model of “urban heating” based on population. For Basel, he has plotted the GISS adjusted version while for de Bilt and Uccle he has applied his own adjustment. He has also extended the Basel data by appending data from Zurich.
Later on the page he plots temperature anomaly rather than absolute temperature, all series normalized to a 1901-1930 baseline. This is probably a better choice than offsetting some of the series, but it makes little difference in the appearance of the graph (other than to change the numbers on the y-axis).
He also plots these, and a few other, data sets with trends, one for the entire time span, another for the period 1880 to now:
On this basis Raven states
We have temperature data going back to the 1700s in parts of Europe (which is comparable to today).
He also says:
This data makes it clear that the warming trend would be much less significant if data prior to 1800 was incorporated into the graph. That makes a graph starting in 1900 as “deceptive” as a graph starting in 1998.
Will these claims stand up to scrutiny? First, the graph I displayed which Raven calls “deceptive” doesn’t start in 1900, it starts in 1850. But that’s a minor point. Let’s look at some of this data more closely; since all the stations shown correlate strongly with each other, we’ll examine the first location plotted, a city for which I have very fond personal memories. It’s the city of musicians: Vienna.
The aforelinked website provides an Excel file containing the data and the graphs. This made it easy to remove the other data sets and produce a graph identical to the first, but with only the Vienna data:
The graph is not quite up to date, so I retrieved all available data from the original sources and made an up-to-date version (these are annual averages of temperature anomaly using the entire time span as a baseline):
The graphs are similar but not identical. So I investigated where the difference originated, comparing the data I used (from referenced sources) to the data used by Erren (included in his Excel file). First I took the monthly data I used and computed annual averages, except for years which didn’t have data for all 12 months. Then I did the same for Erren’s tabulated monthly data, and computed the difference between his values and mine. Here’s the result:
From this it’s clear that either Erren’s data, or that in the linked sources, includes an adjustment not included in the other. But the difference between his data and mine is negative for the early part of the data, zero for later data, and nowhere more than 0.1 deg.C. Using his data introduces a warming trend which is not present in mine; this means that if I use the data from linked sources, my results will underestimate total warming over time compared to Erren’s data. In fact the total warming estimated from using my data will be 0.1 deg.C less by the time we get to the present, which will favor the notion that earlier times were “comparable to today.” I’m perfectly willing to yield that advantage to Raven’s claim, essentially cheating in his favor. So on this basis, I’ll stick with the data from linked sources.
But that doesn’t account for the difference in the graphs. So I compared the annual averages used by Erren (which he also provides) to the annual averages from my data:
These differences are much larger, both positive and negative, and show no trend or pattern except that already observed, which cheats in favor of Raven’s claim. Clearly the annual averages plotted by Erren don’t agree with annual averages computed from the monthly data he supplies himself! This was a real puzzler, until I discovered that Erren plots annual averages for the climatological year (December of the previous year through November of the given year) rather than the calendar year.
Calendar-year averages and climatological-year averages are both completely valid, and omitting the adjustments in Erren’s data in order to cheat in Raven’s favor certainly won’t unfairly test his claims. So I stuck with the data from linked sources (which I’ve called “my” data) and with the calendar year. This certainly enables us to test — fairly — whether or not the Vienna data support Raven’s claim that past temperatures were comparable to today.
So let’s look again at my graph which is similar to Erren’s, for Vienna. One of the things I don’t like about the original graphs is that the vertical size is quite small, and a good portion of it is taken up by the title and legend, leaving a very small y-axis. This makes changes over time harder to see and reduces the visual impact of those changes. Here’s a version with a much larger y-axis:
Now we can see much more clearly the warming of recent times. We can also see that although individual years in earlier times are almost comparable to today, longer-term averages are not, and that the amount of variation in earlier times is greater than today.
The greater year-to-year variation in earlier data is probably due to less precision for earlier data. This makes it all the more important to smooth the data in a way which clarifies the longer-term trends (the climate) rather than the year-to-year fluctuations (the weather). I’ll smooth the data on a 10-year time scale, in two different ways. First, I’ll use a Savitsky-Golay filter (labelled “Smooth” and plotted in red). Lest anyone suspect that some complicated filtering method has introduced artificial trends, I’ll also smooth the data by one of the simplest of methods: computing 10-year moving averages (plotted in blue). Here’s the result:
Now we start to see much more clearly that the temperature of earlier times is not comparable to today. This becomes starkly obvious when we plot just the smoothed versions and expand the y-axis even more:
The 10-year time scale smoothed value today is a full deg.C warmer than any 10-year time scale value before 1980. I could repeat all the foregoing for the other time series, but that’s a heckuva lot of work and since they’re all so strongly correlated we can predict with extremely high confidence that the result will be the same. I have in the past, just to satisfy my own curiosity, done similar analysis of other very long temperature records including the longest of all, Central England Temperature (CET), which goes back not merely to the 1700s but to the 1600s. The result is the same. It’s abundantly clear that Raven’s first claim is false: earlier temperatures from long time series are not comparable to today.
As for the second claim, it’s quite true that the average trend over the last two-and-a-quarter centuries is less than the average trend over the last century-and-a-quarter. But that’s only emphasizes that the long-term trend is dominated by the recent warming! If temperature were exactly constant for all time until recently, then as we extend linear regression (which estimates the average trend rather than the present trend) further back in time it’s estimate of the average rate would go to zero. The whole point is that the modern trend is much faster warming than the long-term temperature changes, because it’s caused by man-made influence on the climate system due to the side effects greenhouse gas emissions. Hence the reduced average rate for the longer time span makes the modern trend all the more significant rather than less: Raven’s second claim illustrates utter failure to understand the significance of modern warming.
Raven’s mistaken claim about earlier temperatures being comparable to today is due to visual inspection of a graph which shows only annual averages, so that short-term changes are emphasized, and with a temperature axis so small that all changes have much reduced visual impact. Raven’s mistaken interpretation of the meaning of long-term trends over different spans of time is simply … incomprehensible.









39 responses so far ↓
sod // April 19, 2008 at 5:52 am
very nice post, thanks Tamino!
Mitchell // April 19, 2008 at 10:19 am
Any explanation for the sharp drop (in the last graph) of temperature in 1825 and for the steady increase from 1850 onwards?
[Response: Certainly much of the reason for the cooling is that the early 1800s was a period of high volcanic activity. This includes Tambora in 1815 (the explosion was *audible* from 1200 miles away), and another sizeable climate influence, Galunggung in 1822. The warming is probably due to the fact that in the early 1800s climate forcing due to greenhouse gases began its significant increase (Crowley 2000, Science, 289, 270).]
Meltwater // April 19, 2008 at 10:34 am
Quoting HB:
Lest anyone still be suspicious, Wikipedia has a brief entry on the Savitzky-Golay smoothing filter at this link.
Hansen's Bulldog // April 19, 2008 at 12:02 pm
NOTE TO READERS:
I’m travelling today, so moderation of comments may be very slow. Thanks for your patience.
Bart // April 19, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Are the so called heat islands incorporated in the data ? Even without an actual rise in temperatures it would be warmer in cities nowadays.
Gavin's Pussycat // April 19, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Great post.
The downward skip around 1825 of about 0.6C may well be real, but one way to find out would be to process nearby Hohenpeißenberg and Basel/Zürich in the same way, and compare. As this early data appears to contain greater random-looking error as noted in the post, a systematic effect wouldn’t surprise me either.
I understand HB isn’t gonna do it… any volunteers? :-)
Hans Erren // April 19, 2008 at 2:51 pm
“The 10-year time scale smoothed value today is a full deg.C warmer than any 10-year time scale value before 1980.”
So? But the annual peaks are not, which only demonstrates that the variability in the 19th century was larger. Pielke Sr has a beautiful alternative anthropogenic candidate for the cause: Land use change.
http://home.casema.nl/errenwijlens/co2/L7enednc.jpg
BTW My Vienna data was downloaded from GISS before 2005, with updtates from later years, so any problems in the data you should debate with Jim Hansen. Could you send me a copy of your Vienna complation?
[Response: I didn't state, or imply, that there were any problems with either data set. The point of this post is to show that the data referred to by Raven don't support the claim he made.
You can reproduce my compilation by taking the pre-1880 data from GHCN v1 and the post-1880 data from GISS (both linked to on your own site). As one of the graphs shows, annual (calendar year) averages from that are within 0.1 deg.C of annual (calendar year) averages computed from the monthly data in your Excel file, and the difference favors Raven's hypothesis.]
cthulhu // April 19, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Once again a nice analysis. I found it impressive how well the different European city records match.
John Mashey // April 19, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Another nice post.
This is just one more reminder of the common error of “eyeballing” noisy series and drawing wrong conclusions. No one makes the same mistake with the Keeling Curve.
Human eyes are drawn to extremes in such curves, just as they are drawn to edges in images, i.e., areas of rapid changes. There’s bound to be some cognitive psychology experiment on this, although I couldn’t find one offhand. Anyone know of such?
It’s also likely related to stock market “technical analysis.”
Hank Roberts // April 19, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Raven’s belief is based on
> “data going back to the 1700s
> … data prior to 1800″
From 1775 or maybe 1780 to 1800.
Right.
Where’s he _getting_ this stuff?
Leif Svalgaard // April 19, 2008 at 6:56 pm
HB said: “The whole point is that the modern trend is much faster warming than the long-term temperature changes”. and “I have in the past, just to satisfy my own curiosity, done similar analysis of other very long temperature records including the longest of all, Central England Temperature (CET), which goes back not merely to the 1700s but to the 1600s. The result is the same”.
In the interest of the whole truth it is instructive to look at the CET and warming rates [there are also intervals with cooling - but I dare not look at those for fear of being banned, again :-) ]
In http://www.leif.org/research/CETandCO2.pdf I show the result of my analysis of CET. Since the interval since the 1980s is about 30 years long, i have looked at ALL other 30-yr intervals since 1659 with a more than 0.1degree/decade warming trend over the 30 years. There were four of those. I also plotted the [log of] the CO2 concentration. All plots are to the same scale. The CET increases are quite similar [although the latest one is the largest, but not much larger]. The salient feature is the steady upwards march of the CO2 [red symbols], while the CET behaves much the same. In addition, the modern values of CO2 now shows a trend as well within the 30-yr interval which the earlier ones didn’t have. So, I think it is not correct to say that CET does not behave the same over time; it seems to be CO2 that is changing its behavior. There is little doubt that a small part of the last increase of CET is due to CO2, but it is certainly not a dominant effect.
Now, I know all the standard responses to this [old data = bad data, CET is regional, not global, etc.] and I’m sure most acolytes here also know those, so no need to harp on any of them.
[Response: By "the result is the same" when referring to CET, I meant that it too contradicts Raven's claim that temperature in the past was comparable to today. You seem to be the only one who interpreted it otherwise.
Talking about cooling won't get you banned. Putting on airs about respectfulness, while you repeatedly disrespect me in my own house, will.]
Raven // April 20, 2008 at 4:38 am
Tamino,
The data has peaks which are a warm as today and linear regression through the entire dataset is nearly flat (0.029 degC/decade). Both of those facts support my claim that the temperature in 1700s is comparable to today. If I meant ‘equal to’ today I would have used the words ‘equal to’.
In any case, you are missing my main point which was that the impression a reader gets changes depending on your choice of dataset. In this case, including the data from 1750 makes it clear that nature can cause significant changes in temperature that last over decades. Your first poster noticed that and wondered what caused the cooling. You were forced to come up with an explanation which implies that the 1750 is the ‘true’ baseline temperature and the 1800s where abnormally cold due to volcanoes.
In other words, cherry picking a dataset that started in the abnormally cool 1850s allowed you to avoid those kinds of awkward questions and lulls the non-skeptical reader into believing that the correlation between CO2 and temperature is more significant than it is.
Lastly, you cannot expect precision from posters when you run a blog where people don’t know if you will censor them or not. I am not going waste of lot of time providing links to sources or explaining my choice of words in detail if I don’t know if a post will see the light of day.
[Response: You still don't get it. I'm not surprised.]
Leif Svalgaard // April 20, 2008 at 7:28 am
HB: but as I showed there has been quite similar warmings [four of them since 1659] at least the first two of them had nothing to do with CO2. The third was associated with a much smaller rise in CO2. So one can restate Raven’s claim that there has been similar warming in the past as now, and that these were nor caused by CO2.
And is it being disrespectful to disagree with you?
Or to point out your errors [should there be any]?
Hans Erren // April 20, 2008 at 10:00 am
cthulhu wrote:
“Once again a nice analysis. I found it impressive how well the different European city records match.”
Thank you
cohenite // April 20, 2008 at 11:33 am
Russell’s paradox concerns things which do not belong to any class but belong to a class of things which do not belong to any class. The paradox is, if it is a member of itself, it must possess the defining properties of the class, which is to be not a member of itself. If it is not a member of itself, it must not possess the defining property of the class, and therefore must be a member of itself. This is a semantic issue resolved in reality by the actual quality of uniqueness. So with temperature (and other climate parameters); a base period purports to resolve the paradox of a trend of unique temperatures; but, anomalies are still ‘coarse graining’ the reality of each temperature data. To attempt to establish a trend on the basis of a base period (and to resolve the Russell paradox), is still compromised by dechoherence because any different base period will produce different anomalies. Is this resolved by statistical significance? Arguably not, because any trend has geographical algorithm as well as a time one. Given that the geographical algorithm is dependent on the time algorithm no level of certainty can mitigate the decoherent element of the ‘trend’.
I live at Newcastle;my temp data only goes back 145 years; it is from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology; I can’t find any upward trend.
http:www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_061055.shtml
Has my wave function collapsed or not?
dhogaza // April 20, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Cool, so we’ll keep driving and stop farming, right?
Just kidding, because of course if anyone seriously suggested addressing land use change to stop AGW I’m quite certain Pielke, Sr and Hans Erren would find another cause to blame.
Timothy Chase // April 20, 2008 at 4:57 pm
In the second to last paragraph of the essay:
In essence, Raven is complaining that in calculating the linear trend for the last century rather than for the last two centuries, we are getting all-blade and no shaft, and as such his complaint actually concedes the hockey-stick — at least for the last two centuries.
Cthulhu // April 20, 2008 at 5:15 pm
“The data has peaks which are a warm as today and linear regression through the entire dataset is nearly flat (0.029 degC/decade). Both of those facts support my claim that the temperature in 1700s is comparable to today. If I meant ‘equal to’ today I would have used the words ‘equal to’.”
Ridiculous. What does your use of “comparable” even mean then?
You seem big on “impressions a reader gets” but fail to see any reader of your earlier claim would be left with the distinct impression that you were saying temperatures of the early 1700s were *equal* to todays.
Noone is seriously going to believe the alternative that you were just informing us that it’s possible to *compare* temps of the 1700s with today’s. That would be a far too pointless and obvious thing to say.
Timothy Chase // April 20, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Raven wrote:
Sentences like this lull the uninformed reader into believing that the only reason why we expect higher levels of CO2 to raise temperatures is due to some historical correlation. Its not.
CO2 is opaque to long-wave radiation.
You can see it here:
NASA AIRS Mid-Tropospheric (8km) Carbon Dioxide
http://www-airs.jpl.nasa.gov/Products/CarbonDioxide/
The image is carbon dioxide at 8 km. You will notice the plumes rising off the heavily populated east and west coast of the United States. What is being measured is the infrared radiation being absorbed and then reemitted by carbon dioxide. The thicker the carbon dioxide, the more opaque the atmosphere becomes to the infrared radiation in that channel. So in essence, you are seeing the enhanced greenhouse effect in action when you look at that photo.
Of course there are other factors — and we don’t expect to the rise in temperature map perfectly onto the rise in carbon dioxide.
In particular, 1800s to mid 1900s, the rise in methane was fairly important — but it leveled off in the latter part of the century. Aerosols are fairly important — as the reflective aerosols (e.g., sulfates) due to fossil fuel use and large volcanic explosions can have quite an effect upon the the climate system.
But all of this is taken into account in the models — as the models take into account the physics. How much physics are you taking into account in your analysis when you just look at the correlations?
John Mashey // April 20, 2008 at 6:59 pm
1) “Data mining fallacy”: with enough data, one can find almost anything, especially if one ignores physics and other data. My favorite single book for context is Bill Ruddiman’s “Plows, Plagues & Petroleum”, especially for people who seem to want to draw strong conclusions from one slice of one dataset.
2) Since this was about Central Europe, not the world, we could look in nearby Switzerland for confirming/disconfirming data
I’m very fond of the the Swiss glacier records, since:
a) For the last hundred years, they are quite detailed:
see the discussion in:
http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/17/record-global-glacial-melt/
but specifically, see:
http://glaciology.ethz.ch
a well-done website.
As noted in the discussion, glaciers have the useful natural ability to do time-averaging, so there’s not argument about choosing 5-, 10-, or 30-year periods. Look at the Grosser Aletsch glacier, the longest they have, although it is getting shorter quite rapidly.
b) But the Swiss have much longer historical records, since they *care* about glaciers. See the corresponding Grosser Aletsch chart (Fig 2) in Holzhauser, Magny, Zumbuhl, http://www.unige.ch/ forel/ PapersQG06/ Holzhauser2005.pdf .
On the basis of that chart (and others for which there are long term records), the last time that *might* be called “comparable” (in the normal sense of the word) might have been around 1000AD.
3) Likewise, a little further away, but in roughly the same part of the world is Iceland, and they care about sea ice, and they have very long records of it.
p.122 of Ruddiman has a chart of weeks of sea ice blocking northern ports.
Eyeballing the chart:
1700s: 6-25 weeks
1800s: 8-20
1900-1950: 2-7
1950-now 0
Now of course temperature is not the only effect on glaciers or sea ice, but both of the latter have surprisingly good historical records for which no arguments about instruments, ground stations, etc, are relevant.
3) Nobody serious denies the existence of natural jiggles, and there are interesting hypotheses from Ruddiman about long-term agricultural effects and short term effects from pandemics that might explain some CO2/CH4 jiggles. Out here in CA, we have forest fires. Some of them are natural, but that doesn’t rule out arson, which does happen.
4) Physics, gremlins, and leprechauns. GHG-physics is pretty well-established. Amidst the natural jiggles, for CO2, etc NOT to be raising the temperature, we first need something else whose effects simulate the pattern of rise that CO2 would give. Some like the Sun, or cosmic rays, but they don’t fit very well, and mechanisms are unclear at best, so they’ve sometimes been called gremlins.
But gremlins aren’t enough. We’d need leprechauns, i.e., unknown mechanisms to cancel the well-known CO2 effects at just the right time. Sulfates are the closest I can think of, but the patterns don’t work.
Somehow, given the choice between:
- a well-understood mechanism based on physics, and - not one, but two unknown mechanisms, one to produce the warming we actually see, and the other to cancel the warming that CO2 should produce …
I’ll stick with physics.
cce // April 20, 2008 at 8:04 pm
I suspect England is going to have more variability than the typical location on land because it is an island in the North Atlantic.
If you take the convention of modern global warming beginning in 1975, and calculate every 33 year trend, there is a cluster of time where Central England warmed faster (the 33 year periods beginning 1687 through 1692).
http://cce.890m.com/cet-33-trends.jpg
But the 5 and 10 year averages are over 0.5 degrees warmer than anything since 1659.
It would be interesting to modify OpenTemp to do an analysis of Europe using these various (old) temperature data.
Somewhat related, we can update the famous Lamb graph of Central England to the present. This is just a rough overlay — don’t get out the calipers.
http://cce.890m.com/lamb-updated.jpg
(Lamb used 50 year averages, and the orange dots are a moving 50 year average).
Boris // April 21, 2008 at 4:32 am
I agree with cce that Britain will have some swings, due, at least in part, to the North Atlantic Oscillation. That’s why CET being a merely “regional” record is important–because regional climate phenomena dominate whatever global signal there might be.
You guys remember the European warm period, right?
cohenite // April 21, 2008 at 9:34 am
Timothy Chase; you say “CO2 is opaque to long-wave radiation.”
I don’t see how this can be. The absorbance of CO2 is a matter of spectrographic sensitivity to IFR wavelength. If a CO2 molecule is not saturated it will absorb IFR and kinetically produce heat; if it has already absorbed IFR, and is saturated, it can neither absorb more IFR (until it emits) nor act as a barrier to further upward IFR.
luminous beauty // April 21, 2008 at 6:17 pm
cohenite,
Opacity is a relative term when discussing atmospheric gases, as in, less than transparent.
1.) The kinetic heat generated from absorbed radiation leaves the absorbing molecules free to absorb more radiation. Saturation does not mean molecules cease to absorb radiation, but that the intensity of radiation is greater than their capacity to absorb and convert to kinetic energy (or re-emit).
2.) If a given layer of atmosphere is saturated by as much radiation as the receptive molecules in that layer are able to accept, in a timely manner, the next layer lies ready to absorb whatever surplus gets through. Given deep enough layers, progressively, more and more of the radiation will be absorbed, and the atmosphere will become effectively opaque.
On the Earth, at present, CO2 is actually more translucent than opaque. It diffuses, and hence, only retards the passage of IR.
Venus’s atmosphere is more opaque.
Timothy Chase // April 22, 2008 at 4:38 am
A couple of quick points:
1. I prefer to use the qualitative term “opaque” simply because its meaning is a little more “transparent” than the term that indicates degree — “translucent.” It gets across the fact that there will be backradiation in a way that the term “translucent” doesn’t suggest quite so well — but also gets across the fact that some radiation will get through — after so much scattering.
2. I really should avoid using the term “reradiated” (force of habit) since it is highly unlikely that the carbon dioxide molecule which absorbs the photon will be the same one that emits “the photon” later. Above 20 mb, the half-life of a molecule’s excited state is likely a million or more times the length of time between collisions, so the energy that gets absorbed will be thermalized, distributed among the molecules which that molecule collides with. However, in a local equibrium, collisions will insure that all gases are at the same temperature, such that some percentage of carbon dioxide molecules are in an excited state at any given time. And given the fact that the molecules that are in excited states have no memory of how long they have been so, over any given period of time, a certain percentage of those will undergo decay — equalizing the radiative temperatures associated with the various excited states and the temperature associated with the molecular collisions.
EliRabett // April 22, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Before this goes too far. After CO2 absorbs an IR photon, it rapidly returns to the ground state as a result of collisions. The time for this at atmospheric pressure is ~ of a few nanoseconds. There is no chance that the absorption will be saturated because the rate of excitation due to thermal radiation is many orders of magnitude slower than the rate of collisional deexcitation.
Hank Roberts // April 22, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Eli, clarify — how much does this change going from an ‘atmospheric pressure’ of “one atmosphere” to the lower pressures approaching the top of the atmosphere?
Is there an altitude at which the odds of a collision are low enough to matter?
I’m sure you’ve taught this before and I’m also sure I’ve forgotten it.
Timothy Chase // April 22, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Hank,
The following might answer your question — although the link is currently down:
I can look up some more stuff a little later — but probably just by mining what we have gone over before. But basically, at lower atmospheric pressures, collisions aren’t enough to equalize the temperatures associated with different excited states — let alone between radiation and matter. And at low enough pressures you may have stimulated emission. Eli brought up, for example, how it has been observed in the upper atmosphere of Mars — and I ran into something where it was observed in a stellar atmosphere a few years back.
Hank Roberts // April 22, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Right, that fits my vague recollection.
50 kilometers and above — that’s thin air.
EliRabett // April 22, 2008 at 11:28 pm
The rule of thumb is that the average time between gas kinetic collisions at 100 mTorr is 1 microsecond. Everything scales from there. It takes maybe 100-1000 such collisions to lose a quantum of vibrational energy, again rule of thumb which varies with details
Timothy Chase // April 23, 2008 at 3:27 am
Hey! The link I gave is working — or rather the link to the pdf that one finds on the other side of the link I gave. Enjoy…
cohenite // April 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Thanks for that. Timothy Chase, if I understand you correctly, saturation is not a particular CO2 molecule effect, but a product of a local atmospheric level achieving a thermal equilibrium of sufficient mass CO2 excitation so that temp is stabilised at that level (assuming no further CO2); and at that time IR will pass through to the next level.
However, if I understand EliRabett correctly, a localised thermal equilibrium will not be achieved because of the disparity between the rate of CO2 stimulation by IR and the rate of “collisional deexcitation”; and as a result localised atmospheric temp increase is not dependent on additional CO2.
That aside, and noting TC’s reference to the link dealing with the process at differing atmospheric levels and pressures, how does, if at all, Ferenc Miskolczi’s idea of a non-opaque, “finite semi-transparent atmospheric model” fit in? Instead of the layer by layer process, Miskolczi looks at a total atmospheric radiative balance. He also distinguishs the Martian atmospheric atmosphere. Or is this just Angstrom and Arrhenius all over again?
Hank Roberts // April 23, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Miskolczi, comment at RC
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/10/global-cooling-again/index.php?p=536#comment-82312
[Response: Runaway Greenhouse is a strawman. I’m sure someone will take the paper to bits properly. The obvious problem for it is to explain the ice age cycle -William]
Timothy Chase // April 24, 2008 at 2:33 am
cohenite wrote:
I believe you misunderstood me — as I didn’t speak of “mass” or for that matter, of IR passing through to different “levels” after any length of “time,” and I never mentioned “saturation.”
cohenite wrote:
I am afraid you misunderstood Eli. He wasn’t speaking of what prevents a local thermodynamic equilibrium, but of what insures its existence: the thermalization of the absorbed radiant energy by a high rate of collisional de-excitation.
This is what I meant when I wrote:
… and this is what Eli meant when he wrote:
It is the interaction between matter and the radiation field that insures that the Maxwellian temperature of matter and the Planck temperature of the radiation field will be the same. It is only at fairly low pressures (20 mb and below) that collisions become infrequent enough (fewer than a million collisions per half-life of an excited state) that a local thermodynamic equilibrium will no longer apply and the Maxwellian temperature and Planck temperature will begin to diverge. But at that point, there will no longer be a single temperature associated with the radiation field as different quantum states of molecular excitation (e.g., vibration, rotation, rovibration) will begin to have different brightness temperatures.
cohenite wrote:
I don’t know specifically what paper you are refering to, but it sounds like he is largely explaining what is simply known as radiation balance theory, that is, essentially the application of the conservation of energy to a system which receives incoming solar radiation and radiates upwelling thermal radiation, where given an initial equilbrium, a constant level of incoming sunlight, and a rising opacity of the atmosphere (e.g., due to rising levels of greenhouse gases), the temperature of the system must rise and will continue to rise until the rate at which it emits thermal radiation is sufficient to compensate for the increased opacity of the atmosphere. Radiation balance theory is generally expressed in terms of radiation leaving and entering the top of the atmosphere, and in this sense treates the atmosphere as a whole.
EliRabett // April 25, 2008 at 3:31 am
Timothy Chase has my meaning right
Hank Roberts // April 25, 2008 at 8:00 pm
> Miskolczi
Much at RC; William’s inline reply here:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/03/the-global-cooling-mole/langswitch_lang/en#comment-82312
cohenite // April 27, 2008 at 4:10 am
Thanks once again Timothy Chase. I think it’s fair to say I am now teetering on the edge of the informed layman’s precipice. My concern remains about a limitation to the heat retention ‘ability’ of CO2 and GHG’s.
You mention divergence of the Maxwellian and Planck temperatures at low pressures, so I presume this is what allows radiation to escape at the top of the atmosphere.
At lower levels, where there is greater opacity, some of that radiation is returned to earth, along with the radiation from the “constant solar source”. Disregarding the issue of a “constant solar source”, it would be fair to say that the return ‘mechanism’ of emitted radiation to earth by the CO2 opaqued atmosphere causes the surface to warm in excess of that warming only from the solar source. Given this, the Planck Law of brightness distribution can be used to distinguish the CO2 effect; this law can calculate the increasing intensity of the light emitted from the black body/earth as a function of wavelength; the hotter a body,the brighter it is at shorter wavelengths. As Wien’s Law shows, the increase in surface temp causes a shift of the peak of the Stefan-Boltzmann derived total energy from the earth to shorter wavelengths. The shift obviously would be slight; but is it suficient to be a negative feedback to the sensitivity of the heat ‘trapping’ properties of CO2 and GHG’s?
Hank Roberts // April 27, 2008 at 7:04 pm
> The shift … is it suficient to be a
> negative feedback
You’re describing how the planet starts off at an equilibrium temperature, warms after the amount of greenhouse gas increases, and warms until a new equilibrium temperature is reached, I think.
Tenney Naumer // May 9, 2008 at 5:46 am
Raven is always rude and arrogant — is that some kind of genetic trait of denialists?
Great analysis — thanks for all the time you obviously put into it.
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