Open Mind

Recent Climate Observations Compared to (IPCC) Projections

March 26, 2008 · 164 Comments

There’s been some hoopla in the blogosphere lately about comparing projections of temperature from the IPCC TAR (third assessment report), published in 2001, to observed temperature. The comparisons have been made to temperature data since 2001, on the basis of the claim that that’s when the projections start so that’s when the comparison should start. It appears such claims are in error.


In a previous post, I addressed some simple ways to account for the effect of autocorrelation on estimating trends (in particular, the probable errors in such estimates). I applied those methods to global temperature data from NASA GISS, from which it emerged that the data since 2001 do not contradict warming at a rate of 0.02 deg.C/yr (or 0.2 deg.C/decade), the warming rate claimed to be the projection of the IPCC TAR.

As a reader pointed out, the IPCC TAR projections actually don’t start in 2001. That’s when the TAR was published, but the individual studies on which they’re based were published before that, and of course the computations were done before publication. It turns out that the models used to make those projections begin their independent (from any observations) computations in 1990. A proper comparison of projections with subsequent observations appeared in Rahmstorf et al. (2007, Science, 316, 709, hereafter referred to as “R07″), which examines not only global temperature, but CO2 concentration and sea level as well. The authors clearly state, “Although published in 2001, these model projections are essentially independent from the observed climate data since 1990.” The temperature data used for comparison in R07 are annual average land-ocean surface temperature from GISS and HadCRU, from 1990 through 2006.

Pointing out that comparison of IPCC projections with observed temperature has already been done in the peer-reviewed literature, has led to questions about the origin of this temperature graph in R07 (I’ve added labels to the x-axis to indicate which years are graphed):

rahmstorf.jpg

Lucia, for instance, makes a query on her blog which is well described as pleading for an explanation. This leads to considerable speculation in reader comments. I too was curious about the origin of this graph, but I took a different approach than asking my blog readers. Forgive the twisted logic of my bizarre approach, but the strategy I adopted was: ask Stefan Rahmstorf.

His reply was to the point: the graphs were made using actual data which was provided by the IPCC authors. Imagine that. The grey range and scenarios in R07 are exactly those famous future scenarios shown in the IPCC TAR Summary for Policy Makers in Figure 5. Here’s an updated version of the graph which includes more current observed temperature data (click the graph for a larger, clearer view):

rahmstorf2.jpg

The solid blue and red lines are the trends from GISS and HadCRU data, the dashed lines are the IPCC projections included in the TAR. The graph speaks for itself rather well.

The models used for the TAR were developed in the mid-1990s. They’re not statistical models based on fitting observed data, they’re models based on the equations of thermodynamics and hydrodynamics. They weren’t “tuned” or updated using any observed climate data subsequent to 1990. Furthermore, it’s just irrational to claim (as some have suggested) that model developers would subsequently have used observations post-1990 to change their models; in the mid-90s, the period after 1990 would have been way too short to be meaningful for model tuning, just as the period starting in 2001 is today too short for us to draw any conclusions about trends (which we’ll see shortly). The period 1990-2006 used in R07 is just about long enough for a meaningful comparison — that’s why R07 published it at the time.

The projections shown in R07 don’t follow the strict 0.2 deg.C/decade rate of increase claimed to represent IPCC projections. So what are the actual projections from IPCC TAR? The TAR states in more than one place that we can expect “about” 0.2 deg.C/decade warming over the next few decades. Note the qualifier “about,” and that the quoted figure is accurate to only 1 significant digit. The logical conclusion is: between 0.15 and 0.25 deg.C/decade, in which case flatly stating 0.2 deg.C/decade as though that were an ironclad exact figure isn’t an honest representation of the IPCC projection. But we needn’t be satisfied with so imprecise a figure. Using the actual data from model runs used in IPCC TAR and referred to in R07, we have these estimates for trend rates from 1990 to 2010, and for that matter from 2000 to 2010:

ipccrate.jpg

Note especially the final entry, which gives the average of the included scenarios. For the two decades following 1990 the average rate is 0.0165 deg.C/yr (0.165/decade), for the decade following 2000 the average is 0.0174 deg.C/yr (0.174/decade). Hence if we want to compare observation to projection starting in 1990, we should use the more precise figure 0.0165 for IPCC projection, and if we follow others by starting at 2001, we should use 0.0174. Considering how close the error ranges come to the purported projection of 0.02/yr, it makes quite a difference.

And what is the observed trend rate since 1990? R07 display both GISS and HadCRU data, so I’ll look at both of them. I’ll estimate the trend from ordinary least squares (OLS), but I won’t compensate OLS using a simplified estimate of the impact of AR(1) autoregression, or Cochrane-Orcutt estimation, both of which assume an AR(1) model for the random fluctuations. For the AR(1) model, the autocorrelation at lag j is given by

\rho_j = (\rho_1)^j.

However, as a reader pointed out in comments to the preceding post, the autocorrelations at lag greater than 1 depart from this pattern, tending to be greater than their AR(1) values. The result is that although the AR(1) model certainly gets us in the ballpark, giving a realistic estimate, it underestimates the error range, which is larger than indicated by the AR(1) model. Since the final result of that analysis is rather a “close call,” it turns out that the AR(1) model, while sufficient for many purposes, won’t do for this job; it’s necessary to apply more realistic estimates of the autocorrelations. I’ll also use the exact formula for the impact of autocorrelation on the probable error in an estimated trend rate from OLS (see Lee & Lund 2004, Biometrika, 91, 240).

Results? For GISS data the trend estimate since 1990 is 0.02 \pm 0.011 deg.C/yr, for HadCRU it’s 0.019 \pm 0.0118 deg.C/yr. The midpoint value from both data sets is greater than the TAR projection, but both error ranges include the TAR value of 0.0165. Hence a proper comparison of observed data to IPCC TAR projected temperature (start in 1990 when the projections start, use a realistic autocorrelation model, and an exact formulation of its impact) confirms, rather than falsifies, the projection. If anything, it’s “more likely than not” that actual warming has been greater that the TAR projection.

I’m sure many readers are interested in results using only post-2001 observations. GISS data indicate 0.0024 \pm 0.0334 deg.C/yr while HadCRU indicate -0.0102 \pm 0.0302 deg.C/yr. Note that the error range for HadCRU data is just about 3 times as large as the estimated value itself, and that for GISS data is nearly 14 times as great as the value. Note also that both data sets give error ranges which include the TAR projection of 0.0174 deg.C/yr. In fact, both error ranges include the purported TAR projection of 0.02 deg.C/yr. Here are the results presented graphically:

obsrate.jpg

Finally, it must also be mentioned that even these error ranges, based on exact methodology and a realistic autocorrelation model, are still too small because they don’t include the uncertainty in estimating the autocorrelation parameters. So the error bars really should stretch even further than they do in this graph, which serves to emphasize the failure of observed data to falsify the IPCC TAR projection. It’s more work than I care to undertake to incorporate the impact of this final uncertainty into the numbers, but in this case it’s not necessary because we know that the error bars will get bigger — and they’re already big enough to rule out any falsification of IPCC TAR projection.

It also serves to emphasize the tremendous uncertainty is trend estimates from a mere 7 years of data with a signal-to-noise ratio as small as that we see in global temperature. Over a longer time span, the signal can emerge from the noise with sufficient precision to make meaningful comparison of projection to observation. But over such a short time span the long-term trend is swamped by the effect of the noise, so we effectively end up comparing random fluctuation in observed data to long-term trend from projections. That invites faulty conclusions — and in this case, unless one applies considerable rigor to the analysis it actually spawns faulty conclusions.

How, then, do some conclude that temperature data falsify IPCC TAR projections?

  • Use the wrong start date, so that you
  • Compare short-term fluctuation to long-term trend
  • Make the rate projected by IPCC too high.
  • Make the error range, even when compensated for autocorrelation, too small

I’ll close by quoting an important summary paragraph from R07:


Overall, these observational data underscore the concems about global climate change. Previous projections, as summarized by IPCC, have not exaggerated but may in some respects even have underestimated the change, in particular for sea level.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Categories: Global Warming · climate change

164 responses so far ↓

  • kim // March 26, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    How about comparing projections from AR4 with temperatures from 2001?
    ================================

    [Response: The tremendous uncertainty in estimated trends based on only 7 years of data, with a signal-to-noise ratio as small as we observe in global temperature, makes such a comparison unlikely to reveal meaningful insights.]

  • kim // March 26, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    One insight it might reveal is that with stable or dropping temperatures for three more years, then the IPCC’s projection of 0.2 degrees centigrade temperature rise per decade would be falsified at the 95% confidence level. That would be a meaningful insight if a flipped PDO gives us stable or dropping temperatures over the next three years.

    Shhh, don’t tell Pachauri, or any journalists or politicians. It’s a secret.
    =============================

    [Response: As this post (and Rahmstorf et al.) illustrate, characterizing the IPCC projection as 0.2 deg.C/decade is just not correct -- that figure may apply if one examines the entire 21st century or even up to 2050 or thereabouts, but not to the last couple of decades. That's one of the fatal flaws in other attempts I've seen to falsify IPCC projections. Perhaps the "best" characterization of this and the preceding decade is the average of the included models, which turns out to less than that figure. But as there are many models included, even characterizing it by a single value is an incomplete description.

    Three more years of data will reveal more information. Whether or not that will falsify any projection depends on how strongly the signal emerges from the noise, but unless the results of simpler analyses are clear-cut, a rigorous analysis is necessary to draw reliable conclusions.]

  • JCH // March 26, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    Well, what if somebody isn’t looking for meaningful insights?

  • Adam // March 26, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Would there be anything added if the range for the IPCC prediction (grey area) was added to the red line on the last plot (is it even possible?)?

    I understand it’s not the same thing as the error range in the observed trends, but the grey area does suggest quite a wide range in predicted/possible rates of warming.

  • Adam // March 26, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    Oh, also great post, BTW.

  • kim // March 26, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    The fundamental problem, and a very obvious one, is that the models assume no natural climate variability. Then, any temperature variability from the ‘trend’ is assumed to be weather noise, and our dancing calculations angelically miss the real contribution of CO2 to temperature, and climate.
    ==============================

  • fred // March 26, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    tamino, isn’t the interesting and important question, whether the events since 2000 or whenever have falsified a prediction the IPCC did not make, namely, that temperatures would stay the same? Not much hangs on the question of whether the IPCC did or did not make a mistake in one particular estimate. A lot hangs on whether its warming or cooling.

    [Response: Consider the data since 2001 (since I've already run those numbers). The GISS data are indeed consistent with (i.e., don't falsify) a warming rate of 0, or a sizeable negative (cooling) rate. But they're also consistent with a warming rate *twice* as high as the IPCC projection. And as I mentioned in the post, those error bars are still too small because they don't account for the uncertainty in autocorrelation estimates. Yet another factor, which I failed to mention, is that this analysis only considers random fluctuations as part of the genuine temperature evolution, it omits to consider the additional uncertainty due to the measurement and estimation process itself -- if there were no such uncertainty, then GISS and HadCRU (and NCDC) would be in complete agreement, which obviously they aren't. All of which again underscores how little we can determine from such a short time span, given the noise level.

    In a previous post I outlined the conditions under which I'd accept that we have solid evidence of a cessation of warming, and noted that for these data the time span which is "likely but by no means certain" to allow a conclusion is 15 years (from start 2001 to end 2015). I've also posted about the fact that given the nature of the random fluctuations, encountering time spans which appear (without rigorous analysis) to reverse the warming trend isn't just expected, it's *inevitable*. Flip that coin often enough, you're gonna get 10 heads in a row.

    I think the root of the idea that even very brief time spans must always falsify cooling, is a lack of sufficient comprehension that noise really exists, in both measurements and the climate system itself, that on subdecadal time scales it's considerably larger than the signal, and its effect isn't some rare noteworthy event, it's ubiquitous.

    Physics, both analytical analyses and computer simulations (which are physics, not statistics), is quite clear: warming will continue. Statistical analysis has yet to contradict that.]

  • Mike B // March 26, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    Next year after all the 2008 temperature data is in, how many “interested parties” will there be running statistical analysis on the last 10 years (1999-2008) to see if that falsifies the IPCC predictions?

  • Thomas Huxley // March 26, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    Tamino

    You are very careful to use the phrase “IPCC projection” rather than “prediction”. Is there a subtle difference?
    Or are they the same thing?

    [Response: That's the word chosen by Rahmstorf et al., so it seemed appropriate. Wiktionary defines "prediction" as "a statement about what will happen in the future," and "projection" as "a forecast or prognosis obtained by extrapolation," while "forecast" is defined as "an estimation." From that it would seem that "projection" doesn't strictly apply, because the IPCC TAR projection isn't based on extrapolation, but neither does "prediction" because clearly it's an estimation rather than a definitive statement.

    I'll leave it to others to decide what word is most appropriate, and to the folks at Oxford to define words more precisely.]

  • sod // March 26, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    very good post, very well written. love this part:

    How, then, do some conclude that temperature data falsify IPCC TAR projections?

    * Use the wrong start date, so that you
    * Compare short-term fluctuation to long-term trend
    * Make the rate projected by IPCC too high.
    * Make the error range, even when compensated for autocorrelation, too small

    ————————

    Mike, nex t year 11-year averages will be the hype. you wouldn t want to lose 1998, the year that allows an eyeball “earth is cooling” analysis, would you?

  • TCO // March 26, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    I just scanned the stuff that was written in February (which others here linked to). It seemed there that Lucy had a comment about not accounting for annual temperature autocorrelation and just looking at a normal distribution based on the (implicitly iid) standard deviation. Did I read that wrong? Or did she change her analysis in some later posts (I know she had a lot of them). I still have not gotten a good description of how she modeled the autocorrelation. Saying AR1 defines a certain type of autocorr (not the most highly fitted), but it doesn’t say waht the single term is equal to (iow the AMOUNT of random walk).

    BTW Tammy, it’s annoying that you don’t link to the specific Lucy posts. Here is the one that I saw, which does not talk about autocorrelation:

    http://rankexploits.com/musings/2008/can-ipcc-projections-be-falsified-sample-calculation/

    [Response: I see that post is based on analysis of annual data since 1998: 10 data points. Annual data show less autocorrelation that monthly, but it's still not zero. However, *estimating* autocorrelation coefficients using just 10 data points is next to impossible. In that case, it would be better to estimate the autocorrelation using a longer time span of data, and apply those estimates to analysis of the 10 data points.

    It appears that her more recent attempts to falsify IPCC projections is based on monthly data, but in that case the AR(1) model isn't really good enough to do the job.]

  • Thomas Huxley // March 26, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    Re: prediction versus projection. Thanks very much for the clear distinction. I think you are right to prefer estimation or estimate. If only words had “error bars”, but then again maybe they do!

  • Paul Middents // March 26, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    Good post.

    How many different ways do you have to explain the futility of using a short segment of a noisy time series to draw conclusions about a long term trend? The usual suspects are wasting no time pecking at your current effort.

    Atmoz had a similar exercise which associated much of the noise in the temperature series to an idealized (spherical) El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO). He includes some nice graphics for the mathematically challenged.

    http://atmoz.org/blog/2008/03/14/first-assume-a-spherical-enso/

    kim (March 26 at 4:59 PM) makes the stunning assertion that “that the models assume no natural climate variability.” This might have been enough for you to moderate it into the wall but I’m glad you didn’t. It reveals a point which may be lost on some—that global climate model outputs show variability that mimics El Nino/Southern Oscillation (ENSO) like behavior. I think this is a measure of model “skill”. A very active current aspect of climate research is the effect of global warming on ENSO. Start with the references for the Wiki entry on El Nino. They include Merryfield, 2006, Changes to ENSO under CO2 Doubling in a Multimodel Ensemble, Journal of Climate, 19, 4009-4027.

    http://www.ocgy.ubc.ca/~yzq/books/paper5_IPCC_revised/Merryfield2006.pdf

    Following this paper forward via papers that reference it we find a recent one: Soon-Il An, Jong-Seong Kug, Yoo-Geun Ham, In-Sik Kang, 2007: Successive modulation of ENSO to the future greenhouse warming. Journal of Climate (Accepted)

    http://climate.snu.ac.kr/2005_new/pub/papers/i61.pdf

    Before some eagle eye points it out for me, I’ll quote from their summary:

    “The sensitivity of ENSO to future greenhouse warming predicted by the various IPCC
    AR4 Climate Model simulations is highly model-dependent (e.g., van Oldenborgh et al.
    2005; Merryfield 2006). Thus it may be premature to conclude how ENSO may vary
    during global warming. Nevertheless, it should be valuable to explore a fundamental
    mechanism on the changes in ENSO variability modulated by greenhouse warming.”

    These guys are not overreaching nor am I trying to over interpret the importance of their work. This is just a sample of work in this important area.

    The whole subject of ENSO and other cyclic climate phenomena like the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) might be a rich area for our host to educate us. Our own University of Washington has a group dedicated to this work and a good web site chock full of data:

    http://jisao.washington.edu/

    They even discovered the Pacific Decadal Oscillation!

  • Aaron Lewis // March 26, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    The real question is, “How much air temperature change does it take to be significant?”

    The atmosphere may be an important part of the climate system, but it is not the entire system, and the different parts of the system are not in equilibrium. GISS and other air temperature databases do not reflect heat taken up by deep ocean waters or warming ice or melting ice. There is a lot of ice that was “very cold,” and now is only “cold.” There is a lot of ocean water that is a bit warmer.

    The IPCC models do not reflect the complex physics of warming ice. The melting of sea ice and permafrost has absorbed heat. There is a surprising amount of sub-glacial water that was ice. Nevertheless, this heat accumulated by global warming will eventually be accounted.

    Remember that the difference between ice and water is zero degree of temperature. We can melt a lot of ice without changing the global temperature. Global warming and global temperature as measured by sampled air temperatures are NOT related by a linear function. The fact that these functions are highly non-linear will reduce the power of any statistical models that assume a linear relationship.

    Falsification of global warming requires proof that heat is not accumulating, rather than simply a demonstration that air temperatures are not rising at some predicted rate. Proof of global warming rests on evidence of total heat accumulation, rather than on flux in some set of air temperatures.

  • TCO // March 26, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    Well of course, you would use a longer earlier set to give you the autocorr characteristics. Heck even were it iid, you would want to calculate the std deviation from year to year based on the overall data, not the in the cross hairs data. What a maroon. Why do we skeptics do this to ourseleves??

    [Response: Perhaps Lucia's efforts represent a learning process rather than being a "maroon."]

  • TCO // March 26, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    Mebbe so. But how about the maroons on my side touting her work? They need to be disciplined. Spankings. Naked ones.

  • dhogaza // March 26, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    Perhaps Lucia’s efforts represent a learning process rather than being a “maroon.”

    Not seeing much evidence of learning, here, since she’s insisting on her “proof”, telling WIlliam Connelly he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, etc etc.

    I think it’s stubborness, not “marooness” at work, though.

  • David B. Benson // March 26, 2008 at 10:48 pm

    A reminder for an earlier poster:

    From

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice

    When ice melts, it absorbs as much heat energy (the heat of fusion) as it would take to heat an equivalent mass of water by 80 °C, while its temperature remains a constant 0 °C.

  • kim // March 26, 2008 at 10:49 pm

    Paul, why do you fail to convince? Is it because the IPCC was tasked to explore anthropogenic climate change? And output isn’t the same as underlying assumptions.

    Tamino, every lowering from 2 degrees centigrade per century means less cause for alarm. At what projection does climate change not become catastrophic? And sure, we know there are enough models to justify a multitude of sins.

    Wait until it gets warmer outside, TCO, before you suggest naked spankings. Why don’t you try to figure out the real sensitivity of climate to CO2 so that honest advice can be given to policymakers?
    =========================

    [Response: This continual misrepresentation of IPCC projections is getting really annoying.

    The same exact models which average to 0.174 deg.C from 2000 to 2010, also indicate 2 to 4.5 deg.C this century.]

  • TCO // March 26, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    Connely is nothing special. Tammy’s better than that. WC is a camp follower, wiki-weenie. Tammy can do math.

  • dhogaza // March 26, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    Connely is nothing special. Tammy’s better than that. WC is a camp follower, wiki-weenie. Tammy can do math.

    Strange to think that a mathematician from Oxford can’t do math. Or are you claiming that he’s lying about his background?

    I’m sure the reason he got his job as a climate modeler at the BAR is because he’s mathematically illiterate.

  • Johan i Kanada // March 27, 2008 at 12:16 am

    Tamino,

    Can you explain why you say that:

    i) Having the two 1990’s trend values slightly higher than the IPCC model, “more likely than not” implies that the IPCC models underestimate the actual trend

    ii) While, on the other hand, having two 2000’s trend values significantly lower than the IPCC projections “serves to emphasize the failure of observed data to falsify the IPCC TAR projection”.

    Aren’t you sort of picking the conclusions you want to see here? I mean, you could have written that in case ii) the observations “more likely than not” overestimate the actual trend?

    [Response: OK, I admit that those two statements represent arguing for my beliefs rather than a completely dispassionate appraisal of the results. I've made no secret of my belief in AGW. Perhaps the most objective statement is that both time spans are consistent with IPCC projections, neither indicates departure (either positive or negative) from the projected trend, and the error range from data post-2001 is so large as to prohibit meaningful insight.]

  • Heretic // March 27, 2008 at 12:48 am

    The hit taken by Arctic sea ice last year is enough to absorb a lot of heat from the system, methinks. Wit this year’s extra thin ice poised to possibly fare no better, some reassessment of the dynamics might be necessary. And a decadal average change is just that. Some decades will differ from average. Kim, your tone is getting annoying and does nothing to foster your views. I’m getting to think you deserve as much attention as Watts.

  • George // March 27, 2008 at 1:10 am

    Meanwhile, while some continue to argue that the IPCC has “overpredicted” the effects of AGW, all hell is breaking loose in Antarctica.

    Apparently, Nature does not read blogs.

  • Alan Woods // March 27, 2008 at 2:39 am

    George, thats not hell breaking loose - its ice. And ice shelves are dynamic systems, so they can break off when it’s cold, or hot, or something in between (for different reasons). And looking at this, I’d say where at something in between:
    http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.south.jpg

  • Johan i Kanada // March 27, 2008 at 3:59 am

    George,
    Apparently Nature’s Ice does not read IPCC either:
    http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
    After decades of catastrophic AGW, the global sea ice coverage is above average?

    (But this type of discussion is not what Tamino wants to see, so let’s get back to the statistics…)

    [Response: Or take it to the open thread.]

  • dhogaza // March 27, 2008 at 4:42 am

    This one’s studied. 15 years ago, it was predicted that it would break off due to warming within 30 years (by the BAR).

    So, who was on record predicting it would break off due to cooling, or something in between, due to being “dynamic systems”?

    No one.

    Why should we accept the “hypothesis” of an anonymous internet hand-waver over the scientists who’ve been studying the sea-ice-land system there for at least the last 15 years, if not more?

  • MarkR // March 27, 2008 at 6:15 am

    Tamino says:”we know that the error bars will get bigger — and they’re already big enough to rule out any falsification of IPCC TAR projection.”

    What use is a projection that is impossible to falsify?

  • Steve Bloom // March 27, 2008 at 8:16 am

    Alan Woods, credibility would seem to require that you learn the difference between sea ice and ice shelves. The aforementioned Wikipedia would be a good place to do so.

    BTW, the concern about the shelves is not because of the collapse of any one of them, but because the recent collapse is the latest in a series that has tracked from north to south consistent with the record of warming of the Antarctica Peninsula. It has been noted that the Wilkins shelf is 5 degrees south of the Larsen B shelf that collapsed in 2002, and that a further 5 degrees south is the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, the outlet ice streams of which have undergone a massive acceleration in recent years.

  • kim // March 27, 2008 at 8:59 am

    Sooner or later, most people get around to trying to falsify hypothetical projections. Some sooner. Some later. Some never. You can fool some of the people all of the time.

    H/t MarkR
    =================================

  • The Tuatara // March 27, 2008 at 10:08 am

    David BB makes an interesting point. Melting ice absorbs a lot of heat that might otherwise be observed in temperature increases. And the current global melt is substantial. Greenland mass loss, WA mass loss, glacier mass loss, Arctic multi-year ice (and volume) loss. There’s a lot of latent heat of fusion being used up… Perhaps enough to reduce the rate of global average temp increase? (Except of course where it’s released back to the atmosphere on winter freeze-up, viz last winter in Sweden and Finland).

    Someone care to do the sums?

  • guthrie // March 27, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Kim is a well known poster from the mammoth dot.earth thread, who basically trolls merrily along asking annoying questions without showing any ability to learn, nor a deeper understanding of the problems. They undoubtedly have their deeply held belief about global warming being a con, but replying to them will get you caught up in the usual denialist maze.
    I don’t think this is too harsh an assessment.

  • Alan Woods // March 27, 2008 at 11:43 am

    dhogaza, hand waving I can take. But anonymous? I think you might be projecting.

    Bloom: I never said that ice shelves were sea ice. Rather, attribution to warming flies in the face of other evidence from the antarctic.

  • Phil. // March 27, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    “There’s been some hoopla in the blogosphere lately about comparing projections of temperature from the IPCC TAR (third assessment report), published in 2001, to observed temperature. The comparisons have been made to temperature data since 2001, on the basis of the claim that that’s when the projections start so that’s when the comparison should start. It appears such claims are in error.”

    How do you square this with the fact that the scenarios for those calculations start from 2001?
    http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/vol4/english/wg1figts-17.htm
    These scenarios were provided to the modellers in 1998 so that the results would be available for the TAR.

    [Response: The models don't include, or depend on, nor were they tuned with, any climate data post-1990. Period.]

  • Phil. // March 27, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    [Response: The models don’t include, or depend on, nor were they tuned with, any climate data post-1990. Period.]

    But the projections they make clearly start from 2001, and they do depend on data post 1990 since the starting point for the scenarios is 2001 and was provided in 1998. It’s not credible to assert that in 1998 they ignored changes in emissions since 1990 when devising them.

    [Response: Wrong. As Rahmstorf et al. point out, the IPCC TAR projections for CO2 levels (beginning in 1990) turned out to be extremely accurate in spite of the fact that their projections for emissions weren't nearly so accurate, because errors in projected emissions and carbon sinks pretty much cancelled each other out.

    And of course you're ignoring the real issue of this post, which is projections of temperature.]

  • Ken // March 27, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    Alan & Johan - Sea ice extent throughout the south isn’t representative of the substantial warming that’s been occurring on the Antarctic peninsula. That warming is indisputable and explains well the recent break of a (possibly) 1500 yr-old ice sheet.

    Tamino - great post. I’m glad you dealt with this topic. I hope the error-bar size evidence helps readers understand the futility of jumping to conclusions based on short-term fluctuations.

  • George // March 27, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    Mark R says:

    Tamino says:”we know that the error bars will get bigger — and they’re already big enough to rule out any falsification of IPCC TAR projection.”

    What use is a projection that is impossible to falsify?

    I believe HB’s point is that it is not possible to falsify the projection over the short period in this case, but that does not mean it could not be falsified (at least in principle) over a longer term. What that length of time is depends on how the temperature develops.

    Some people are sure to cry “foul!” or “convenient excuse!” at having to wait any length of time to say that the IPCC got it wrong, but that does not change the reality.

    The comment about the “error bars getting bigger” does not mean “bigger with time” it means doing a more detailed analysis of the noise over the short period would just tend to increase the error bars (not decrease them), so it would not change HB’s conclusion that “the IPCC (average) projection has not (yet) been falsified.”

    So, what good is the IPCC projection? (or more precisely “what good are the projections?”, because there are actually many of them for different emissions and climate sensitivity scenarios)

    For the very short term, I’d say not much, nor was it (were they) intended to be. It (they) was (were) intended to show policymakers the kind of temperature change to expect over the long (multi-decade) term with a given set of emissions assumptions, so they could plan accordingly.

    What good is a (long-term) projection for the “financial health” of Social Security? (ie, telling you when it will probably become insolvent if nothing is done)

  • Tom C // March 27, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    OK Tamino - I agree that we are not anywhere near a point where the IPCC projections/predictions/scares/whatever can be falsified. But, as others have pointed out, if the aforementioned have any value they must be falsifiable in some way. So, what temperature trend over what time frame would constitute falsification? What is your answer to this?

    [Response: I've repeatedly said that there's no fixed time frame which applies. If the actual trend since 2001 is zero and it stays that way (which I seriously doubt), then it won't take very much longer. If the actual trend since 2001 is 0.01 (rather than the average of IPCC TAR projections, about 0.0174) it'll take longer. And as IPCC projections make clear, the trend is expected to increase over the next several decades, and there are many individual projections given in the IPCC TAR so that by 2100 the projections themselves diverge.

    It's impossible that IPCC projections are *exactly* correct; sooner or later they *will* be falisified. I just hope real temperature trends don't end up being much *higher* than projected.]

  • Phil. // March 27, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    “But the projections they make clearly start from 2001, and they do depend on data post 1990 since the starting point for the scenarios is 2001 and was provided in 1998. It’s not credible to assert that in 1998 they ignored changes in emissions since 1990 when devising them.

    [Response: Wrong. As Rahmstorf et al. point out, the IPCC TAR projections for CO2 levels (beginning in 1990) turned out to be extremely accurate in spite of the fact that their projections for emissions weren’t nearly so accurate, because errors in projected emissions and carbon sinks pretty much cancelled each other out.

    And of course you’re ignoring the real issue of this post, which is projections of temperature.]”

    What’s wrong with my statement, nothing you stated refutes it?
    Regarding your last comment I’m exactly on point, the projections are based on a starting point of 2001, something you suggested wasn’t the case in the OP:
    “How, then, do some conclude that temperature data falsify IPCC TAR projections?

    Use the wrong start date,”
    Also Fig 17 makes it clear that the starting points are not based on their previous projections.

  • george // March 27, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    If one is talking about the trend over several years, is it better to trend the monthly data or the annual average data?

    What potential advantage (if any) might monthly data provide in that case?

    Also, from the perspective of trend analysis what are the advantages/disadvantages of averaging several data sets together before extracting the trend?

    Is it better to average the data or to average the trends obtained from each data series and appropriately combine the errors ?

    Or does which is better depend on specifics of the case?

    For example, what if a particular data set has one or more data points that are in error (particularly systematic error) by a significant amount?

    Is it better to do something else entirely (other than average the data sets or average the trends)?

    Finally, what does it really mean to talk about “95% confidence” (or any level, for that matter) if it depends on the details of what was done?

    No implication is intended with regard to the specific case at hand, but in general if one takes an approach that is just plain wrong, isn’t a “95% confidence” claim simply meaningless?

    [Response: Generally it's better to analyze monthly rather than annual data, because there's more information there. However, when using monthly data the autocorrelation becomes much more prominent so it must be taken into account, and if the result is close then one has to use a realistic model for the autocorrelation. In fact, because of autocorrelation the additional information we get out of monthly as opposed to annual data is *much* less than would be the case for white noise, so the advantage isn't nearly so great as in the white-noise case. My intuition -- I haven't quantified this -- is that monthly is as much resolution as I'd want to use for estimating long-term trends (I wouldn't bother to get down to daily or hourly data).

    And depending on how long the total time span is, there may be more than enough information in annual averages to answer the questions under consideration. Then the advantage of fewer numbers to crunch comes into play, calculations are faster (this doesn't matter for 30 years of temperature data, but it can make quite a difference for several gigabytes of satellite observations of the large magellanic cloud).

    If you want to average data sets together, you have to be sure they're measuring the same thing (so averaging surface thermometer measures with satellite measurements of the lower troposphere isn't a good idea). You'd also want to be sure that the only differences between the data were truly random, and that the behavior of the randomness was the same for both. I'd say it's better to average the trends than to trend the averages. One should be very careful about computing the error of that average, the results may not be independent.

    As for "95% confidence" (or whatever level), it should have little dependence on how the analysis is done, and in most cases that's true. But if one analysis is inherently more precise, then it's result should be preferred. But care should be taken when results are a close call. If a hypothesis is rejected at 94.999% confidence but not 95% confidence, we should definitely keep an open mind! Statistics gives probablistic rather than deterministic answers.

    And yes, if an approach is just plain wrong, then "95% confidence" is meaningless.]

  • dhogaza // March 27, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    One should be very careful about computing the error of that average, the results may not be independent.

    I’m not certain what Lucia did, but one of her justifications for averaging the multiple sources together was to narrow error bars.

    But the HadCRU and GISS output is based on the same set of physical weather instruments, as I understand it, so I don’t see that one could treat them as though they’re independent.

    But, then again, I don’t know how she computed her error bars.

  • chriscolose // March 27, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    Re: Prediction vs. Projection

    I would define the latter as saying “if x, then y” (i.e., if we double CO2, we project 3 C of warming) whereas a “prediction” would be telling us that x will happen (i.e., we will get a doubling of CO2, and so we will get a 3 C increase).

  • chriscolose // March 27, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    By the way, climatological periods (for average weather data) are conventionally 30 years. This is enough time to see if the trend is stationary or if there is some underlying signal. Shorter scales are obviously harder to call because they are so noisy, and unless the signal of the warming exceeds the amplitude of noise in the temperature record, what you are seeing could simply be chance. Moreover, if the variability also increases (the standard deviation may increase along with the shift of the mean) then you can get temperatures just as cold as before the warming. It’s also of importance to risk assessment people to know the likelihood of extremes.

    I’m in agreement with Tamino that we need to wait a while, maybe almost 10 years, to get a good idea of the trend. 2008 for example will probably not be very hot (meaning probably not in the top 5, but still above the 1951-80 baseline) because the first two months have been anomalously cool due to La Nina. If the rest of the year goes on like, say, 2005 then it is possible, but I don’t think very likely.

    C

  • kim // March 27, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Let’s try this. Forget for the time being 95% confidence, and TAR. Using your method, Tamino, and AR4 projections, and data from 2001 to the present, at what confidence level have those projections been falsified, already.

    guthrie, more precision in language, please. Don’t you mean I ask irritating questions, rather than ennuying ones?
    ================================

  • steven mosher // March 27, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Tamino, you wrote

    “[Response: This continual misrepresentation of IPCC projections is getting really annoying.

    The same exact models which average to 0.174 deg.C from 2000 to 2010, also indicate 2 to 4.5 deg.C this century.]”

    This requires some clarification. you are talking about a spread due to changes in input. SRES.

    Basically, here is what you have. In the TAR they said .2C per decade, NO MATTER what happens to emissions. Warming in the pipeline. In AR4 they said the same thing. 2000-2011 .2C NO MATTER what happens to emissions. Warming in the pipeline.

    Basically, since the TAR the IPCC has said .2C per decade for the next couple of decades no matter what we do. shrugs.

    Here’s a thought. Put proper errors bars on all the projections and you will tell a vastly different story. But you will not tell a story that motivates people to action and change because that story will be dominated by uncertainity.

    In any case. I have decided to switch parties. I will now side with the people who want to wait a long time to confirm or disconfirm climate science. As many have noted we need thirty years of data. So, I dont want to hear any short term confirmations or disconfirmations.
    no stories about ice and cold winters, or heat waves. 30 years. That’s about right. Then I will listen to the debates.

    After 30 years, we can decide the matter. When all the data is in. Until then, everything we talk about is just the weather.

    Seems fair.

    [Response: I haven't checked AR4 for details, but in the TAR they say "about" 0.2. One significant digit. Only those who are looking for an excuse to falsify IPCC will insist that it's 0.2 on the nose. And they also say that's for the next several decades. But the trend is expected to increase over those decades, so it'd be less than that early and more than that late. And it's based on model simulations, which when studied to get numbers more precise than one significant digit, give less than 0.2 for this, and the preceding, decade. What part do you not get?

    By the way -- have you retracted the mistaken claim about my suggested conditions for falsification, on those blogs where you cross-posted it? Seems fair.]

  • dhogaza // March 27, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    Here’s a thought. Put proper errors bars on all the projections and you will tell a vastly different story. But you will not tell a story that motivates people to action and change because that story will be dominated by uncertainity.

    Only in the near term. It’s not that hard to understand.

    It’s no different than the stock market, where you can quite confidently point out that money invested when you are young will have grown in value (in real dollar terms) by the time you reach your 60s, if past trends hold up.

    Yet, we can’t promise that an investment made when you’re 21 will have grown by the time you’re 27.

    Conservatives have no problem with that. Why the hair up the ass over a physical phenomena that is similarly noisy over the short term, but with a well-defined long-term trend?

  • Joel Shore // March 27, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    As I understood it, the IPCC uses the term “projections” rather than “predictions” because they are based on scenarios for what our future emissions might be. Although they have tried to make the scenarios realistic, one cannot predict what future course society will take and, most importantly, one might hope that the emissions scenarios don’t come to pass because we actually come to our senses and curtail our emissions. (The IPCC purposely made the scenarios essentially “business as usual”, i.e., not assuming that we realize our folly and curtail emissions.)

    Another contributing factor might be that the IPCC does not attempt to account for natural variability due to natural forcings likechanges in the solar and volcanic forcings. This is justified for two reasons, one being that it is not now possible to predict these future natural events and hence the forcings, and the second being that the anthropogenic forcings are expected to dominate over the natural forcings barring some dramatic low-probability natural event such as a super-volcano or a major asteroid impact.

  • Hank Roberts // March 27, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    For those interested in how trends are perceived:

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-flash08.html?project=LOST_DECADE
    http://www.wallstreetweather.net/2008/03/stocks-lost-decade-from-planetary.html

  • Hank Roberts // March 27, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    (And no, I am not endorsing the planetary-alignment theory of Wall Street, just pointing out how an astrologer is interpreting the trends so clearly pictured in an article from the WSJ)

  • George // March 27, 2008 at 11:58 pm

    Steven Mosher claims:
    “In AR4 they said the same thing. 2000-2011 .2C NO MATTER what happens to emissions. Warming in the pipeline.”

    You have misrepresented what the IPCC said, just as you previously misrepresented what HB said with regard to his previous post.

    From AR4, Section 3

    For the next two decades a warming of about 0.2°C per decade is projected for a range of SRES emissions scenarios.
    Even if the concentrations of all GHGs and aerosols had been kept constant at year 2000 levels, a further warming of about 0.1°C per decade would be expected. Afterwards, temperature projections increasingly depend on specific emissions scenarios (Figure 3.2).

  • kim // March 28, 2008 at 3:42 am

    So let’s take AR4’s ‘about 0.2 degrees C per decade’, and the temperature record from 2001 to the present, and see at what confidence level that hypothesis is falsified, now.

    C’mon, I dare you. You can do it again yearly if it makes you happy.
    =======================

  • dhogaza // March 28, 2008 at 5:08 am

    So let’s take AR4’s ‘about 0.2 degrees C per decade’, and the temperature record from 2001 to the present, and see at what confidence level that hypothesis is falsified, now.

    Oh, Kim reads Climate Audit, and has read Lucia’s response that HB is wrong, because he used the TAR, not AR4, while she ignores the statistical analysis posted here!

    Kim smart! Kim knows how to snip shit from CA and post it here (without attribution!). Kim wins, because he knows where the and keys are on his keyboard!

    Kim, are you Lucia’s hero? Is this why she’s not posted her disagreements with HB here, rather than at CA, where she knows HB won’t respond?

  • Gavin's Pussycat // March 28, 2008 at 6:15 am

    Steve Mosher, do you ever learn anything from what has been pointed out to you in the past?

    Like, what happened over the past 30 years?

    Or is denialism like Alzheimers, and you have to explain everything from scratch again every time?

  • Gary Moran // March 28, 2008 at 9:00 am

    Tamino

    RankExploits was testing AR4 since 2001 where the prediction was .2′C per decade, not TAR since 1990. So you’ve spent a lot of time and effort countering an argument they didn’t make!! Was that a deliberate ploy to cloud the issue?

  • fred // March 28, 2008 at 9:11 am

    HB, Lucia apparently was assessing not TAR but AR4. Does that change your mind about any of this? It evidently will not change your mind about the excessive shortness of the sampling period, understood. But some of the other surrounding stuff?

    [Response: What's to change? The observed data since 2001 don't change, the size of the error range doesn't change, the error range still includes 0.2 deg.C/decade for both GISS and HadCRU, and it's still misrepresentative to take "about 0.2" and interpret it as an ironclad exact 0.2.

    When I took up this subject, it was obvious that a 1-significant-digit statement complete with approximation qualifier, was not sufficient to characterize IPCC projections. So I tried to do better -- and it took me *less than a day*.]

  • kim // March 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    dhogaza, if you’d be a little smarter and look back through this thread, you’ll see that I’ve been yammering about AR4 since long before lucia posted that comment at CA. However, I did get it from her original posts at Blackboard.

    Yes, I’m smart enough to understand that CO2’s role in climate is not precisely elucidated. And that the sun’s role in climate is not fully explicated, either. Frankly, I’m seeking understanding; I actually get some here.
    =============================

  • kim // March 28, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Truly, dhogaza, I’ve no idea why lucia doesn’t post here, or Tamino not at climateaudit. But it is obvious to me why you don’t post where you’d get eaten alive. With your attitude and rhetoric, I’ve wondered why you post anywhere. Have you no shame?

    Be a scientist. Step back and look at the temperature data, and wonder, at long last, if your hypotheses might be in error.
    ================================

  • george // March 28, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    Lucia gives the following trend and confidence interval for the trend since 2001

    I estimate the empirical trend using data, show with a solid purple line. Not it is distinctly negative with a slope of -1.1 C/century.

    But, more importantly, the IPCC projections for the mean trend, as indicated by the red line do not fall inside the 95% confidence intervals for the data. Those confidence intervals are bounded by the two purple dashed lines.

    The confidence interval for this data set are -3.3 C/century < m < + 1.1 C/century.

    Lucia also claims that

    The central tendency of the IPCC projection, m=2.0C/century, falls outside the 95% uncertainty intervals for trends estimed [sic] based on data collected since 2001. Moreover, the full uncertainty interval for trends projected by the IPCC fall outside the empirical uncertainty intervals. [bold added by me]

    Compare that to the central value and range of warming for scenario B1 in the AR4 WG-1 report [in bold] (Chapter 10, executive summary, page 749)(see quoted text below)

    In particular, note that the lower bound on the IPCC range for scenario B1 (1.1C/century) is the upper bound on Lucia’s trend based on the data since 2001.

    In other words, even if one assumes that Lucia is justified in starting her analysis in 2001 and in using such a short period for comparison to IPCC projections and that her statistical analysis is correct (the uncertainty for the trend that she gives is actually narrower than the one HB arrived at for the same period for either GISS or HadCRU [the latter of which actually has the greatest negative slope since 2001 of ANY of the data sets]), based strictly on what is in the AR4, she has not “Falsified IPCC” , specifically not not the IPCC B1 projection at the claimed “95% level” (though it would be close to doing so)

    Relevant text from the same AR4 document
    AR4 WG-1 report [in bold] (Chapter 10, executive summary, page 749:

    An assessment based on AOGCM projections, probabilistic methods, EMICs, a simple model tuned to the AOGCM responses, as well as coupled climate carbon cycle models, suggests that for non-mitigation scenarios, the future increase in global mean SAT is likely to fall within –40 to +60% of the multi-model AOGCM mean warming simulated for a given scenario. The greater uncertainty at higher values results in part from uncertainties in the carbon cycle feedbacks. The multi-model mean SAT warming and associated uncertainty ranges for 2090 to 2099 relative to 1980 to 1999 are B1: +1.8°C (1.1°C to 2.9°C), B2: +2.4°C (1.4°C to 3.8°C), A1B: +2.8°C (1.7°C to 4.4°C), A1T: 2.4°C (1.4°C to 3.8°C), A2: +3.4°C (2.0°C to 5.4°C) and A1FI: +4.0°C (2.4°C to 6.4°C).

    The meaning of the range attached to the scenarios is shown in Figure 10.29. (page 809 of the same document)

    Projections and uncertainties for global mean temperature increase in 2090 to 2099 (relative to the 1980 to 1999 average) for the six SRES marker scenarios. The AOGCM means and the uncertainty ranges of the mean –40% to +60% are shown as black horizontal solid lines and grey bars, respectively.

  • Harold Brooks // March 28, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    So let’s take AR4’s ‘about 0.2 degrees C per decade’, and the temperature record from 2001 to the present, and see at what confidence level that hypothesis is falsified, now.

    If you take the monthly values from GISS for 2001-2007 and ignore the autocorrelation (including it would make the confidence level even lower), I get a little less than 75% for the 0.174/decade that Tamino gave for post-2000. For the annual values, the slope of the regression is 0.188/decade with a 95% CI of -.1 to .5/decade.

  • george // March 28, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    I neglected to provide the link to the relevant AR4 document above — the one that falsifies the “IPCC Falsified” claim.

  • kim // March 28, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Drop back five, and punt. A bettor would be glad for those odds, and thank you, Harold, for your work.
    ========================

  • kim // March 28, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    It’s already falsified, george, but not at the 95% confidence level. However, we are in a cooling PDO phase, and with a quiescent sun. Every day the earth chills gets us closer to the 95% level.

    It might behoove you to examine your assumptions and hypotheses about carbon dioxide. It is an important question, extremely so. Much money and many lives depend on the correct answers.
    ==============================

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Tamino,

    I apologize for the misrepresentation. I’ll post that at Lucias and you can link to it.

    Also, Lucia’s analysis is NOT about the TAR, it’s about AR4. Read her most recent post for the clarification. Or look at the figures in her first post which clearly show her analysis versus AR4. so perhaps, we both can make mistakes and correct them.

    [Response: I was mistaken believing that Lucia's analysis applied to TAR rather than AR4 projections.]

  • Dano // March 28, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    Be a scientist. Step back and look at the temperature data, and wonder, at long last, if your hypotheses might be in error.

    Ah.

    Do your own science if you don’t like the science that goes against your ideology.

    Perfect.

    Best,

    D

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    Apology posted. AT lucia’s. The thread is called the tetter totter of temperature

  • george // March 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    kim says:
    “It’s already falsified, george, but not at the 95% confidence level.”

    Context, dearest Kim. Context,

    Lucia (remember her?) was claiming “IPCC Falsification at the 95% confidence level”not “falsification” at some other confidence level and that is what I was addressing, in my very last post and in the more detailed one that immediately preceded it.

    That should have been obvious, but I apologize if it was not.

    I neglected the “at the 95% confidence level” in my second post but included it in my longer post above:

    based strictly on what is in the AR4, she has not “Falsified IPCC” , specifically not not the IPCC B1 projection at the claimed “95% level” (though it would be close to doing so)

    With regard to what level the IPCC projections have actually been “falsified” at, I would first note that it is important to consider the error bar about the IPCC trends as well as about the temperature data. As I indicated, Lucia’s claimed “95% confidence” interval actually includes the lower value for the “95%” range given by IPCC for scenario B1 (1.1C)

    I can not be sure where Lucia actually got her uncertainty range for the IPCC projected trends (from an “eyeballing” of the IPCC scenario projection graphic?), the one she used to claim

    Moreover, the full uncertainty interval for trends projected by the IPCC fall outside the empirical uncertainty intervals.

    But the IPCC lays out the uncertainties for individual scenarios quite clearly in the text. (And even those uncertainties were intended for the full time period, not just a few short years and thus would not include the probable effect of short term noise like El Nino)

    Second, and perhaps most important of all, at what confidence level is a “falsification” no longer a “falsification”?

    95% is the level normally given for scientific purposes because something that is “rejected” at a lower confidence level may just be rejected too often due to chance.

    The fact is, any way you look at it, Lucia was just plain wrong with her claim that “IPCC has been falsified at the 95% confidence level”, which is what started this whole broo-ha-ha.

  • george // March 28, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Steve Mosher

    Also, Lucia’s analysis is NOT about the TAR, it’s about AR4

    …and, as explained in my comment above, according to the very clear text of the AR4 (For those who care to actually read it, see page 749 of WGI Chapter 10 , particularly as it pertains to scenario B1) her claim of “IPCC Falsification at the 95% confidence level” is just wrong.

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    Dialog is preferable to debate. When dialog is shut down debate ensues. When debate is shut down, diatribes develop. Then you’ll see real division. Two tribes talking past each other.
    And power will define truth.

    The best way to undo this is to return to dialog.
    Dont feed hemlock to people who ask questions.

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Hi Kim!

    We both seem to read the same places. It’s funny that bloggers don’t engage each other on the same ice rink, so to speak. ATMOZ does a bit of this to his credit. For the most part it’s dialog at a distance. he said, she said. Which is very odd, but I understand the social dynamics very well.

    When the truth has been politicized then admitting error is social death. Witness, for example, how people hang on to the Christy/Spencer error. Witness how they hang onto the Mann errors. Witness how people attack and defend AIT. To make an error in this climate is deadly

  • george // March 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    One more general comment and I am done (wasting my own time :) )

    This whole thing illustrates perfectly what is most wrong with “science by blog”.

    You get people making claims right and left when 95% of the time (95% confidence?) they have not even thoroughly read what they are “critiquing” — or if they have, they have not thoroughly understood it.

    But some people seem to have the attitude “What the hey, if I am wrong about my claim, we will all learn something”.

    Well, no.

    They themselves might “learn something” (if the rest of us are lucky), but it is unlikely that “we” (the rest of us) will.

    It’s kinda like saying “we have all learned something”, every time a spacecraft burns up or crashes due to a stupid metric/English conversion.

    In the case of the incinerated spacecraft, ” ‘We’ have learned something” all right, but probably not what the one who made the mistake that led to the burnup thinks.

  • cce // March 28, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    This is what I would like to see.

    Take the various temperature analyses and remove the influence of volcanic eruptions as was done in the “many factors” post. Calculate the rate of warming for the entire time period. Then apply the same statistical tests as Lucia has done to every 7 year period since 1975 (or 1979 in the case of the satellites). My guess is that there will be several 7 year periods that would, by the same standard, “falsify” the warming we know for a fact has occurred.

  • dhogaza // March 28, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    When the truth has been politicized then admitting error is social death.

    Well, usually Mosher angers me, but this time, he made me laugh hilariously.

    Such an ironic line coming from an avowed libertarian …

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    Dhog,

    Seriously, have I not made you laugh before? Seriously?

  • steven mosher // March 28, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    CCE has an interesting approach. Early on I asked Lucia if she could factor out Volcanoes.
    And I pointed her at something Tammy had done ( cant recall where now, alzheimers again)
    Atmoz also had something interesting … taking out enso ..

    Much of this seems similiar to adjusting climate records for surface stations. similiar, but different.

    basically, one could get a better estimate of the underlying trend by factoring out volcanic forcings and major weather periodic functions.

    Sounds good in words. Probably a bitch in math.

  • steven mosher // March 29, 2008 at 12:58 am

    Ok, here is something everybody should like.
    It’s work safe. No climate denialism. Just a fun demonstration.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yldmXWu745w

    hat Tip to Hans

  • Marion Delgado // March 29, 2008 at 2:25 am

    Where’s the profit in replying to the kims and TCOs? They ignore your replies and simply spam the same comments over and over. It’s like trying to argue science with parrots.

    Once you’ve pointed out that there is too much noise determining the fit of models to data over very short time periods (especially cherry-picked short intervals a decade or two after the models for long periods were created), and the trolls make it abundantly clear they’re not going to address that, but simply re-spam their Inhofe speeches, that should end it, I hope.

  • steven mosher // March 29, 2008 at 2:44 am

    Kim is an aphorist of sorts. The comments Kim makes are not meant for you to argue with. They are meant to rattle your brain, to refocus your gaze.

    You should not agree or disagree with Kim. You listen. If it strikes a chord you resonate.

    Sometimes I resonate with Kim. This is good.
    Other times not. I shrug and focus on those times when we see the same thing the same way.

    I like Kim.

  • steven mosher // March 29, 2008 at 2:54 am

    Marion,

    If you would actually engage TCO in a structured discussion ( point by point) you would find, as I have, that he is a fair but tough minded person. He will never cut you any slack.
    and he might punch you in the nose when you dont pay attention, but you’ll probably learn more than you teach.

  • dhogaza // March 29, 2008 at 3:30 am

    You should not agree or disagree with Kim. You listen. If it strikes a chord you resonate.

    I know a really good free, public, county-supported psyche clinic folks can visit here in PDX if, by any chance, this happens to you and you’re in the ‘hood.

    Early diagnosis and aggressive treatment can’t hurt in such cases.

  • cce // March 29, 2008 at 6:35 am

    I don’t think the weather should be filtered out. Just the volcanoes, which are truly external. If the past (since 1975/1979) gives us periods (7 years) of non-warming equal to or more significant than the current non-warming, then it’s a bit hard to falsify model results using the same criteria.

  • steven mosher // March 29, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    dhog, now you made me laugh. we are even

  • steven mosher // March 29, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    cce, a while back I made a complilation of all 7 year trends from 1850 to today. If I recall the probabilty of randomly selctiong a 7 year time peroid and finding a negative trend was around .38. They have of course become more rare of late. based on niave stats, you have a 50/50 chance it will last until 10 years

  • George // March 29, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    cce says

    I don’t think the weather should be filtered out. Just the volcanoes, which are truly external.”

    Leaving the effects of weather in for the case at hand is the very point, of course because that is what tends to change the trend most significantly over short periods.

    The only way to really compare the observed temperature trend over a very short period to a projected trend over the same short period is to include the probable effects of weather in the projected trend (or at the very least in the error bands) for the short term.

    The IPCC uncertainties for the projected trends for their scenarios (TAR and AR4) do not reflect the effects of noise like that due to El Nino over the short term. They do not include weather induced uncertainty over the short term because they were not intended to accurately show what would happen over a short term like 7 years.

    Anyone who wants to see a projection that takes into account the effects of short term noise like El Nino and volcanoes need only look at Hansen’s 88 projections. They go up and down about an upward-sloping “ramp” imposed by GHG increase. No one in his/her right mind would look at the IPCC projections and think they were intended to show the same thing as Hansen’s projections!

    Comparing the trend from the temperature data over a very brief period (7years) with an “adjusted” (scaled for the short period in question) trend and error band intended to reflect what would happen over the long (multi-decade or even century) scale is simply folly.

    If it shows anything at all, it is that one did not read the IPCC document carefully enough to actually understand what their projections mean.

    As a former teacher, I can say that if one of my students had done this, they would have received a failing grade no matter how good their “analysis” was.

  • Timothy Chase // March 29, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    Kim wrote:

    It’s already falsified, george, but not at the 95% confidence level. However, we are in a cooling PDO phase, and with a quiescent sun. Every day the earth chills gets us closer to the 95% level.

    Not meaning to nit-pick, at least Kim in particular since I believe a number of people have been making the same mistake, but strictly speaking, you cannot “falsify” something to less than a 100% confidence level. A proposition or theory which is falsified receives falsification at a 100% confidence level. Anything less than 100% is disconfirmation, which means that the proposition (the first form in which Karl Popper proposed his theory) or theory (the second form in which Karl Popper proposed his theory) is still in play as something which is potentially true — although given his skepticism, whether or not it is true would be forever unknowable.

    This, incidentally, is closely related to the reason why “falsifiability” belongs to the history of the philosophy of science rather than the philosophy of science — and has since about the 1950s. For those who are interested in learning more, you might want to an earlier post of mine at Real Climate. Incidentally, the criticism isn’t new — as it actually predates Karl Popper’s approach (1930s and 1940s) with Pierre Duhem (1892). As such, both the philosophy of science and science itself has moved on to a more Bayesian approach — and practitioners of climatology are perhaps generally more self-conscious of this than most disciplines.

  • Unbver // March 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    CCE asks about seven year trends since 1975. It is very easy to find the answer to his question, for example just put the annual averages into Excel and use the @Slope function.

    During that time two major volcanoes interrupted the general warming trend, the 1982 El Chinchon and the 1991 Pinatubo. In the years following those eruptions there was a drop in temperature that caused the seven year trend to be negative.

    Apart from those two volcano-influenced dips the seven-year trends were all positive until recently. So it does not appear correct to say that in the last 33 years there has been a non-volcano-influenced period of seven years with a negative trend before the present.

  • kim // March 29, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    I’ll happily accept disconfirmation instead of falsification, and thank you for the important lesson, TC.

    Every day of chilling is disconfirming the hypotheses in the IPCC. Surely, real scientists must wonder about many of the assumptions underlying the proposition that CO2 has a larger effect on climate than the sun does, and atmospheric and oceanic circulations do.
    ================================

  • Timothy Chase // March 29, 2008 at 9:19 pm

    Kim wrote:

    However, we are in a cooling PDO phase, and with a quiescent sun. Every day the earth chills gets us closer to the 95% level.

    A little more to the point of your post…

    This is like saying that the “hypothesis” of global warming becomes “increasingly falsified” or “disconfirmed” when we head into winter because things are getting colder but becomes increasingly confirmed as one heads into summer.

    That’s not what the “thesis” of “global warming” is about. It is about the overall climate trend, and just as one would “detrend” for intrannual variability (remove the seasonal signal) one would detrend for the cool phase in the solar cycle or for the negative phase of El Nino or the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

    Thus, for example, the fact that 1998 is statistically tied with 2005 and 2007 for the warmest year in modern history should be discounted to some extent given the fact that it occured during a particularly strong El Nino and warm solar year, whereas one should given both 2005 and 2007 greater weight as 2005 was during a cool solar year and did not have the advantage of an El Nino, and 2007 was not simply during a cool solar year, but for the majority of the year was subject to a strong La Nina.

    But one detrends for such quasi-cyclical behavior unless one were specifically interested in the dependence of the trend upon the cyclical phenomena or otherwise investigating their causal connections — assuming one thought that they were so connected.

    … which actually seems to be the case in a rather interesting fashion:

    A crucial question in the global-warming debate concerns the extent to which recent climate change is caused by anthropogenic forcing or is a manifestation of natural climate variability. It is commonly thought that the climate response to anthropogenic forcing should be distinct from the patterns of natural climate variability. But, on the basis of studies of nonlinear chaotic models with preferred states or ‘regimes’, it has been argued, that the spatial patterns of the response to anthropogenic forcing may in fact project principally onto modes of natural climate variability. Here we use atmospheric circulation data from the Northern Hemisphere to show that recent climate change can be interpreted in terms of changes in the frequency of occurrence of natural atmospheric circulation regimes. We conclude that recent Northern Hemisphere warming may be more directly related to the thermal structure of these circulation regimes than to any anthropogenic forcing pattern itself. Conversely, the fact that observed climate change projects onto natural patterns cannot be used as evidence of no anthropogenic effect on climate. These results may help explain possible differences between trends in surface temperature and satellite-based temperature in the free atmosphere.

    Signature of recent climate change in frequencies of natural atmospheric circulation regimes
    S. Corti, F. Molteni, and T. N. Palmer
    Nature 398, 799-802 (29 April 1999)
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v398/n6730/abs/398799a0.html

    During periods of global warming, ENSO tends to be in a positive phase (more El Ninos which are stronger and last longer) and the North Atlantic Oscillation and tends to be in a positive phase. The reason being? The system is chaotic and sensitive to its environment, particularly the forcing, whether it is solar in origin or due to greenhouse gases. But in the troposphere at least there is very little difference between the two and how they affect the climate system. However, with warming due to solar forcing, one expects both the troposphere and the stratosphere to warm (with the ultraviolet of increased sunlight being absorbed in the stratosphere by ozone), whereas with greenhouse gases one expects the stratosphere to cool while the troposphere warms — as the increased opacity of the atmosphere below the tropopause to infrared radiation reduces the thermal radiation reaching the stratosphere. A guess which way the trends have been going since 1979…

    Not sure about the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (it is one of the longer period climate modes with a shallower amplitude than most — so I haven’t given it as much attention), but the La Nina has been weakening of recent, although we probably won’t see the beginning of the next El Nino until late next year. With regard to solar variability, we have seen beginning of the new solar cycle — with the first few sunspots showing up earlier this year.

    I believe warmer times lie ahead — though this particular summer won’t be a real record-breaker.

  • dhogaza // March 29, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    Every day of chilling is disconfirming the hypotheses in the IPCC. Surely, real scientists must wonder about many of the assumptions underlying the proposition that CO2 has a larger effect on climate than the sun does, and atmospheric and oceanic circulations do.

    Uh, Kim, you did notice that 2007, despite the strong onset of La Niña at the end of the year, was still the 7th warmest on record (IIRC), right?

    And that 2008 will probably be similar, right?

  • kim // March 29, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    I understand your point, TC, but it is all dancing around the increasingly likely fact that the effect of CO2 on a warming trend has probably been exaggerated. If we don’t even know what natural variability is, how are we supposed to dissect out the effect of CO2? This is an important question, and it is not being asked, and certainly not being answered.

    dhogaza, 7th warmest doesn’t sound like climate catastrophe to me.
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  • Timothy Chase // March 29, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    kim wrote:

    I understand your point, TC, but it is all dancing around the increasingly likely fact that the effect of CO2 on a warming trend has probably been exaggerated. If we don’t even know what natural variability is, how are we supposed to dissect out the effect of CO2? This is an important question, and it is not being asked, and certainly not being answered.

    Actually, the question has been asked and repeatedly answered — albeit tentatively — by numerous studies.

    See for example:

    Annan, J. D., and J. C. Hargreaves (2006), Using multiple observationally-based constraints to estimate climate sensitivity, Geophys. Res. Lett., 33, L06704, doi:10.1029/2005GL025259.

    Royer DL, Berner RA, Park J. (2007), Climate sensitivity constrained by CO2 concentrations over the past 420 million years. Nature, 446: 530-532.

    It appears that climate sensitivity to a doubling of carbon dioxide is roughly 2.8 C — and has been for nearly half a million years. (It is partly a function of the distribution of the continents, and as such would have been different at different times in the earth’s history.) 2.8 C, give or take, but with something decidedly higher being more likely than something decidedly lower.

    Oh — and has been pointed out recently by a number of us, other than the quasi-cyclical behavior, solar irradiance has been more or less flat to slightly declining pretty much since 1951. Not much of an alternative explanation for the modern period of global warming there I am afraid…

  • kim // March 29, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    Thanks, TC, but with temperatures dropping, and CO2 rising, James should re-visit some of his admittedly subjective assumptions.
    =============================

  • kim // March 29, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    Also, it seems clear, that with TSI relatively constant, there must be a multiplier