Like the majority of people, I live in the northern hemisphere. And like the vast majority of people, I don’t live at sea, I live on land.
NASA GISS, in addition to reporting its global temperature measurements for 2007, also reports monthly data for land areas and for northern-hemisphere (NH) land, and annual data for a number of different latitude bands. Continuing our survey of NASA’s recently released year-end temperature data (still waiting for year-end data from HadCRU and NCDC), let’s take a look at the NASA results for NH land and its various latitude regions, i.e., the place where I (and probably you) live:

For NH land, the three hottest years on record are the last three years: 2007, 2005, and 2006, and last year (2007) was the hottest. NH land areas are warming considerably faster than the globe as a whole. Because the oceans have such a large thermal inertia, land area warms faster. Also, the northern hemisphere has far more land than the southern, so it lacks the strong moderating influence of the southern oceans.
What’s been happening since 1975 (the “modern global warming era”)? Here are the monthly data values (small open circles), annual averages (large filled circles), and a smoothed curve (red line):
While the planet as a whole has been warming since 1975 at 0.018 deg.C/yr, the NH land has warmed at 0.031 deg.C/yr, nearly 70% faster! In fact NH land has warmed more than a full deg.C just since 1975. We can see this more clearly by removing the monthly data points and expanding the y-axis:
Just as warming has been uneven between northern and southern hemispheres, and between land and sea, so too it has been different for various latitude bands covering NH land. The mildest warming (if it can be called “mild”) has been in the lowest latitude band, from the equator to 24N (for latitude bands, NASA reports annual averages but not monthly data):
Since 1975 we have:
Despite it’s “mild” cooling, this latitude band has experienced over 0.7 deg.C warming just since 1975. But the next northerly band, from 24N to 44N, has seen nearly a full deg.C warming:
But there’s more to come as we move further north, to the 44N-64N latitude band, with over a full deg.C since 1975:
Even this dramatic, rapid warming seems mild by comparison to the northernmost region, from latitude 64N to the pole:
This region has seen just about 2 deg.C warming in a mere 33 years. In other words, its present warming rate is close to 6 deg.C/century.
We can plot the smooth versions of temperature change for all four latitide bands on the same graph, to get an idea of how they compare:
This makes it even clearer that as one moves further north, warming become greater. It also emphasizes that the northern cryosphere, especially the north polar ice cap and the Greenland ice sheet, are likely to be profoundly affected. It’s no wonder that native peoples in far northern regions have already noticed substantial changes to their environment, changes which threaten their way of life.
Here are, for NH land and each latitude band, the warming rates from 1975 to the present, the net warming according to the linear warming rate, and the net warming as estimated from the smoothed data:
| Land Region | Rate 1975-2008 | Net(linear) | Net(smooth) |
| NH | 0.031 | 1.01 | 1.11 |
| Equator-24N | 0.021 | 0.70 | 0.77 |
| 24N-44N | 0.029 | 0.95 | 0.91 |
| 44N-64N | 0.037 | 1.24 | 1.30 |
| 64N-90N | 0.057 | 1.87 | 2.00 |
Even the most southerly of the NH land regions is experiencing faster warming than the globe as a whole, and the highest latitude band is warming 3 times as fast.
As the temperature difference between land and sea increases, we can expect the moderating influence of the oceans to become more prominent, so over the next century the oceans will retard land warming. On the other hand, we can also expect the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases (especially CO2) to keep increasing. So I’ll venture to guess that we shouldn’t expect the NH land warming rates to decrease any time soon (i.e., in our lifetimes).
If the people of the world can find a way dramatically to reduce our emissions of greenhouse gases, then I’ll be happy to be proven wrong. If not, then we’re in for an extremely bumpy ride. Right where we live.












46 responses so far ↓
John V // January 11, 2008 at 4:30 pm
I live in the 44-64N band, as do most of my friends and family. Every winter there is much discussion about how winters aren’t what they used to be. Even the hard-core skeptics, who otherwise refuse to accept global warming, talk about the warm winters (while denying any relationship to global warming and particularly to CO2 emissions).
Anecdotally, winters seem to be much warmer than the ~1C difference in the annual averages. What does the NASA GISS data show about winter temperatures?
[Response: GISS downloads don't include monthly or seasonal data for latitude bands. They do include that information for hemispheres. Study of the monthly data shows a change in the annual cycle, with winter warming faster than summer. I'll take a look at the seasonal data, and try to report a quantitative result for the annual cycle.]
jon pemberton // January 11, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Satellite data??
Does it correlate?
Why only GISS??
[Response: Is this one of those drive-by comments, meant only to take pot-shots at a post which must make deniers feel very uncomfortable?
If you did only a modest bit of looking around 'round here, you'd know that I've recently done a lengthy post on satellite data and am preparing another. You'd also know that I fully intend to report surface temperature data from HadCRU and NCDC, but they haven't released their year-end results yet.]
jon pemberton // January 11, 2008 at 7:07 pm
I took no shots, I only asked a question. I have seen some reference to satellite data but they are on other blogs that if I mentioned I am sure I would be labeled a denier.
Which satellite data do you think is the most accurate?
Sorry if I gave you the impression of trying to take a pot shot it was not my intention.
Jon P
[Response: Then I stand corrected. I posted on satellite data here.]
dhogaza // January 11, 2008 at 7:51 pm
This is a great post. Among other things, I think it makes clear the moderating effect of the oceans, and ought to make it easier for those wondering why the SH is warming slower than the NH to understand the impact of all that blue ink on the map.
It also helps people see how our anecdotal stories about warming in the temperature northern hemisphere seeming more extreme than the global averages we see correlates well with land-only data for the areas where we live (I’m at 45 + a bit myself).
This might be a good post for Real Climate, if you’re motivated to ask them about a guest post.
Gareth // January 11, 2008 at 8:33 pm
As I live at about 43S, might I (in the interest of hemispheric equality) see what you can do with the data down here?
Obviously, oceans dominate, but there are signs of some interesting oscillations that are not fully understood.
[Response: I intend to do a similar post on SH data (I think I'll title it "Down Under" -- but with no intended pro-Australian agenga).
But I can't say exactly when. If I can get HadCRU and NCDC year-end data, I'll likely do that first. And I'm still working on the next post about satellite MSU measurements. And of course, I have a job and a life!]
fred // January 11, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Its not uniform across continents in the NH, is it? Why is that?
[Response: I don't know. As a guess, I'd suggest that air circulation patterns have a lot to do with it. And of course, not all continents (even the NH ones) are at the same latitude, nor are they the same size.
GISS doesn't make available ready-made data by continent. I might go looking at gridded data (by latitude-longitude region) but that's a lot of work! And I've got a bunch of things in the pipeline already.]
John Mashey // January 11, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Excellent exposition.
Deech56 // January 12, 2008 at 12:04 am
This is beautiful, Tamino, and I am sure I speak for the rest of your readership in saying that the work that went into this is appreciated.
It will be interesting to see this analysis for the HadCRU data especially considering the differences in higher latitude coverage. I wonder if any of the modeling gurus have done a a similar breakdown to which these data can be compared (I recall a breakdown by continent, land and hemisphere, but not by latitude, but I could be wrong). At a gross level, this is consistent with the expected polar amplification. Maybe to check we can take a field trip to those 64N-90N heat islands, preferably in winter.
ChrisC // January 12, 2008 at 1:11 am
Fred:
Your’s in an interesting question. I thought I preface by saying that not only is warming not uniform across all continents, it’s not uniform within contients. For example, the western and northern regions of North America have warmed significantly since 1901, whilst the southeastern region has cooled slightly (see fig 3.9 of IPCC WGI, Chapter 3, page 250). What’s going on?
The term “global warming” can be a bit confusing. Micheal Chrichton used this in his work of fiction “State of Fear”, where the main character says something like “if it’s global warming, it should be the same everywhere”. This is not true, and there are a few good reasons for it.
For one, the climate system has several natural modes of variation that effect regions differently. The most well known is ENSO, but there are others like the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), Southern Annular Mode (SAM), Indian Ocean Dipole (IOD) ect…
Let’s take the NAO as an example. The NAO effects the “general circulation”, basically the paths taken by the westerly winds across the North Atlantic (between Iceland and the Azores), and effects the paths taken by mid-lattitude storms. When NAO is in a positive phase, the westerlies are strong and the mid-lattiude storm tracks tend to be more northerly. This results in cooler summers, mild winters and a precipitation distribution more to the north in Europe. It can lead to warm winters in eastern North America. When NAO is in a negative phase, Europe generally experiences colder winters, and the storms head more southerly. There’s more on the NAO here:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/nao/
Since 1980ish, acording to the CRU, the phase of the NAO has remained mainly positive: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~timo/projpages/nao_update.htm , as such, different regions of the global will have a differnent climatic response.
Secondly, regional factors like ocean proximity, re/deforestation, aerosol pollution (such as black carbon or soot on snow) and exposure to winds orienting from more rapidly wwarming regions can affect the regional climate. A good example is comparing the Antarctic pennisula to the Antarctic plateau.
The pennisula is exposed to the winds of the southern ocean, whilst a large, swirling air mass called the “circumpolar vortex” prevents alot of the air over the Antarctic plateau mixing with air soming from the southern ocean, and causes subsidence of (generally) cooling air from the stratosphere (which is related to ozone depletion). As such, the Antarctic continent is more insulated than the pennisula, and its climate is expected to chage more slowly.
There is alot of stuff on observed changes in the global circulation on page 280 of Chapter 3 of of IPCC AR4, WGI. But, in a nutshell, there is no reason to expect that different regions of the globe will warm at the same rate.
Hope this helps.
fred // January 12, 2008 at 8:54 am
Other thing I wonder is whether the north is more volatile for some reason, and if so what? You see lower lows in 1890, and a lot higher highs in 1940, followed by a sharper decline, and then the obvious rise.
The instrument record is equally reliable for all the series is it? There’s nothing about where they are located or maintained that correlates to this stuff?
dhogaza // January 12, 2008 at 9:11 am
ChrisC does a good job above, but let me ask you a question.
Why would you expect warming across North America and Eurasia to be uniform? They’re vastly different in size, topography, shape …
The valleys of the Great Basin in North America have an average elevation of less than 1500 meters, and our great tallgrass plains are much lower.
Meanwhile, in Eurasia, the Tibetan Plateau lies at an average of 4500 meters, considerably above the summit of glacier-bound Mt. Hood in my state. The tallest mountains there are about 40% higher in elevation than the tallest in North America, too, and far more extensive.
So, again, given differences between the two continents, why would you expect them to warm uniformly?
bob // January 12, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Again, good stuff. What jumps out is the acceleration in warming trend in the arctic. It is often said that the reason GISS is warmer than other interpretations of global temp is that this data base considers arctic warming while others do not. I have checked the GISS web site and they rely on a network of land based weather stations, a sea surface temp data base, and an antarctic temp data base to develop their global temperature number. No mention of how the arctic temps are measured or derived. Gavin at RC says the temps are extrapolated but the GISS site does not address the arctic issue at all as far as I can tell.
The land-based and SST systems obviously do not and cannot measure air temperatures on the floating ice cap. Does anyone here know how the arctic temps are measured/derived/or extrapolated?
stewart // January 12, 2008 at 2:33 pm
John V, it’s worth remembering that the major result of CO2 is to insulate and prevent heat loss. Thus, we expect warmer winters, warmer nights, and especially warmer winter nights. That’s noticeable where I live, and comparing anomalies by season or diurnal variation makes that clear (hint, Tamino?). This is also the prime indicator that it’s CO2, rather than the sun, or pixie dust, or whatever (that and actual solar measurements).
EliRabett // January 12, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Fred there is a lot more land in the NH.
fred // January 12, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Yes, there is more land in the NH. But how much more land is there from 64N to 90N, than there is from 44N to 64N? I looked at it on Encarta, and just looked again, and am still puzzled.
Martin // January 12, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Bob asks about how the GISS collect data for the arctic regions. According to their website http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/
(Quote)Our analysis differs from others by including estimated temperatures up to 1200 km from the nearest measurement station . The resulting spatial extrapolations and interpolations are accurate for temperature anomalies at seasonal and longer time scales at middle and high latitudes, where the spatial scale of anomalies is set by Rossby waves. Thus we believe that the remarkable Arctic warmth of 2005 is real, and the inclusion of estimated arctic temperatures is the primary reason for our rank of 2005 as the warmest year. (end quote)
Gareth // January 12, 2008 at 10:33 pm
No worries, as we say down here. It’s good that you can find the time to do any of this stuff…
Deech56 // January 12, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Fred, I think that the answer lies in polar amplification, which was touched upon by Timothy Chase in Dead Heat in his discussion of cooling by aerosols. The amplification is bidirectional.
Deech56 // January 12, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Bad link: it’s comment 11693: http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/dead-heat/#comment-11963
Andrew // January 13, 2008 at 3:27 am
The Greenland ice core data indicate the surface of the ice sheet experienced temperature increases much greater than the surrounding oceans at the end of the ice ages. Did N America and Eurasia also experience the same magnitude of temperature increase? And what is the reasoning behind the magnitude of the temperature increase as the ice sheet didn’t contract in area very much. Does this reasoning hold for Greenland’s future? In other words, could the very rapid increase in its surface temperature continue over the next century (i.e. the 6C in 100 year rate you mention)?
Hank Roberts // January 13, 2008 at 11:48 am
Andrew,
> *
> … could the very rapid increase …
> continue over the next century…?
could be:
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/IPCC/IMAGES/sresb1.1900-2100.tas.timeseries.png
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/IPCC/IMAGES/sresb1.1900-2100.11-year.runmn.tas.timeseries.png
ChrisC // January 13, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Hi again Fred,
Once again, interesting question. I’m not an expert on this, but my immediate thought is that the differing climate response of the two lattitude bands is due, at least in part, because of the “polar amplification effect” which is both an expected and observed result of warming on a planetary scale. It occurs *mostly*, because of snow and ice feedbacks, but there are alot of other causes and effects as well. This is not my area of expertise, so I’ll refer you to Cecillia Bitz:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=234
And the IPCC AR4 WGI chapter 3, page 280.
My own pet theory is that, along with the polar amplification effects, that the change in general circulation has somewhat shielded the lower lattitudes from the high lattitudes. I warn you that this may stem from my own professional bias though.
Weather in polar regions is very strange. Many weather effects occur in the high lattitudes that occur nowhere else on Earth. However, much of this weather forms in the high lats and creeps south (or north if you live in the SH) of 70 degrees.
Observed changes such as increased in the strength of the “roaring 40s” westerly winds and the polarward shift of the jet stream, and deepening of the I would argue, indicate that the polar lattitudes are becoming more insulated from the mid-lattitudes. Storm tracks are tending more polewards. In my country (Australia) we’ve been in a long period of drought, much of which is induced by storms staying too far to the south to hit us.
At the same time, we are seeing an expansion of the tropics, so more tropical weather is starting to creep into the mid-lattitudes. Tropical weather is generally less variable. As such, I think that we may be seeing a stronger influence on the mid-lattitudes from the tropics, and a weakening influence from the poles.
This means that the heat from the more rapidly increasing temperatures in the poles are not as readily exchanged a little further to the south (or north), while the tropics, which arn’t warming as fast, are more readily exchanging heat with the mid-lats.
Once again, I really, really strongly recommend having a look at chapters 3 and 4 of the IPCC report. Very good reading on the subject.
Hope this helps. Sorry about the long post.
Aaron Lewis // January 15, 2008 at 5:13 pm
The plots at ( http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/IPCC/IMAGES/sresb1.1900-2100.tas.timeseries.png ) may not fully reflect actual sea ice volume loss, and may be conservative.
Bob // January 15, 2008 at 9:15 pm
From your “Denial” post of last month:
“It’s impossible not to notice (unless you don’t want to) that NH ice area for August, September, and October was way below “normal.” And it’s not just the “usual” below-normal — the kind that happens 5% of the time in the normal course of events. Values for these three consecutive months were more than twice as far from average as the limit of the normal range. I repeat, that’s not an excursion to be expected from natural variation; it’s a severe departure from normal, an indication that ice area in the NH is simply not behaving the way it used to. NH ice does show shrinkage from global warming; profoundly so.”
Everything you said was true at the time, and you made a good point regarding what is normal and what is not. With that said, you can now replace every S with an N, every below with an above, and every shrinkage with growth to describe the current antarctic sea ice situation.
Bob // January 15, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Make that every “N with an S”
cce // January 16, 2008 at 3:15 pm
I don’t know how to break Cryosphere Today’s data (”area”) down by month, but the NSIDC allows you to do this for Sea Ice Extent
http://www.nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/
“Extent and concentration trends”
The NH anomalies for August, September and October were between 30 and 40% below the 1979-2000 mean.
The SH anomalies for October and November, were not unusual. December was abnormal, which at 15% above the 1979-2000 mean is abnormal.
Timothy Chase // January 16, 2008 at 6:08 pm
cce wrote:
Maybe this has something to do with it?
Antarctic ice loss speeding up: Shrinking continent is losing ice faster today than a decade ago.
Eric Hand, 13 January 2008
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080113/full/news.2008.438.html
Timothy Chase // January 16, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Bob wrote:
Bob, The Southern Hemisphere sea-ice area broke its previous maximum by 0.9%, the Northern Hemisphere sea-ice area broke its previous minimum by 27%. These really aren’t comparable. Antarctica’s trends are mixed. While there is cooling which been taking place in the continental interior (which is believed to be largely the result of ozone depletion and possible increased snowfall), depending upon the start and end year, much of Antarctica may show either a warming or cooling trend. However, since the beginning of the satellite era, Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent has declined — with most of the decline occuring in the 1960-70s. (See Tamino’s Sea Ice, North and South, Then and Now.)
We had expected the ice mass of Antarctica to show a slight rising trend for some time simply as the result of projected increased snowfall, but according to Grace gravity measurements, Greenland and now Antarctica are losing ice mass, and satellite imaging shows that weeks of melt have been occuring in recent far into the continental interior of Antarctica as close as 310 miles of the South Pole. Meanwhile, nearly the entire coastline of Antarctica is showing strong warming, not cooling. The warming water is having its effects upon the Antarctic ice.
Hank Roberts // January 16, 2008 at 11:15 pm
NSIDC also provides data to: http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/seaice/Historical.html
For example, Southern, animated:
January 2007:
http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/seaice/analysis/animation/sanim.200701.gif
December 2007:
http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/seaice/analysis/animation/sanim.200712.gif
Global current anomaly’s about back to zero:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
Bob // January 17, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Timothy,
I was commenting on Tamino’s Denial post that skillfully described which sea ice anomalies were within normal variability and which were not. I am not sure why you raise the issue of maximum/minimum sea ice area records.
You state “However, since the beginning of the satellite era, Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent has declined — with most of the decline occuring in the 1960-70s.” I am confused. I thought the satellite era began in 1979, and the SH sea ice area trend since then has been flat to slightly increased.
Thanks for the link to Tamino’s earlier post, which I had not previously read. One conclusion I reach from that post is that SH sea ice extent does not correlate at all with global temperatures, in fact there appears to be an inverse relationship. Perhaps times of warmer temperatures are associated with increased precipitation, and temps are still cold enough for the precipitation to be in the form of snow.
You indicate “Meanwhile, nearly the entire coastline of Antarctica is showing strong warming, not cooling. The warming water is having its effects upon the Antarctic ice.” How do you explain the positive SH sea ice anomalies in light of the warmer air and water temperatures at the coastline?
John Finn // January 17, 2008 at 6:38 pm
This (or these if we include the SH one) is another interesting post. I now rank your blog ahead as the best of the pro-AGW sites - well ahead of RC who seem to have lost the plot. Anyway enough of the flannel – on to business.
Recent regular readers will know that I am highly sceptical about the mid 20th century aerosol cooling theory (see Dead Heat). Reading Tamino’s article, it occurs to me that I might be able to kill (or at least injure) 2 birds with one stone.
Tamino has clearly shown that the distribution of warming over land since 1975 is heavily biased towards the northern latitudes, i.e. the further north – the greater the warming. The artic region shows the greatest warming of all.
I decided to use the same data set and check out the various cooling rates during the 1944-1975 period – and guess what? The arctic shows the greatest cooling. Not only that but the trend appears to lessen as you approach the equator. It’s a bit messy in the mid-latitudes, but we’ve almost got a mirror image. Where the highest cooling occurred between 1944-1975 – we get the highest warming between 1975-2007 and down in the tropics we get the lowest cooling/warming trends. [Note the SH appears to work in reverse]
Coincidence ? I don’t think so and I certainly don’t think the distribution of cooling is consistent with the supposed aerosol effect. The total cooling (1944-75) for each latitude band is as follows
64N-90N -0.93
44N-64N -0.17 *
24N-44N -0.21
24N-EQU -0.09
* the band where overwhelming majority of post-war industrial aerosols were emitted.
Taken together with Tamino’s 1975-2007 analysis, it’s pretty clear there’s something of a cyclical nature going on. CCE: If you’re reading this, you might be on to something with “your” NAO correlation.
Ok – there’s nothing particularly new here and someone will surely point out there is still some residual warming, i.e. we are still currently almost half a degree warmer over land than we were in 1944 but this is where I think the sun might play a part. I’m saying no more, though, until someone picks up on it. There are also other lines of evidence - admittedly anecdotal – which indicate that the arctic climate has undergone quite wide variations in the recent past. Again that’s it unless someone challenges the statement.
JCH // January 17, 2008 at 8:06 pm
John Finn, have you compared your thoughts with this graph for the Arctic AO:
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/images/essays/atmosphere/figa1.gif
Timothy Chase // January 18, 2008 at 7:28 am
Antarctic Ice
Bob wrote:
Tamino’s skill lies in his ability to real things for what they are.
You had stated:
I had responded:
The two aren’t comparable.
Bob wrote:
Measuring temperatures from space began in 1979. The satellite era began in 1957 with Sputnik. The first satellite images of Earth were made in 1959.
Bob wrote:
You are mistaken. Please see Tamino’s earlier post Sea Ice, North and South, Then and Now
Bob wrote:
You might want to reread it. See directly above.
Bob wrote:
If you are speaking about sea ice, snow will actually tend to limit the freezing of ice. It insulates, which means that the ocean it makes the ocean less able to radiate heat.
Please see figure 2 on page 25 (pdf page 29) of:
JISAO 2006-2007 Annual Report
Joint Institute for the Study of the Atmosphere and Ocean
http://jisao.washington.edu/JISAO_DOCS/JISAO_AnnualReport07.pdf
However, this may be more important with respect to sea ice thickness than sea ice area. Are you only concerned with the latter?
Bob wrote:
Could it be the season? Antarctic Autumn (March, April and May) show cooling over much of the ocean which will set the stage for it’s winter. The warming I showed you was the rise in average annual skin temperature. But each season is different.
More ice being dumped by glaciers? More fresh water from the glacier melt? Salt water has a lower freezing point. The important thing isn’t the sea ice in the southern hemisphere — that isn’t what is going to add meters of sea level. What is important is the ice on land, the fact that Antarctica is losing ice mass. And along the coasts glaciers have been predominantly picking up speed, although there are exceptions. If you see a great deal more Southern Ocean “sea ice” in the coming years, it may not be a good sign.
A velocity Map of Antarctic Glaciers
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Sect16/map+.jpg
… from:
Remote Sensing Tutorial, Section 16, Part 2
Evidence for Global Warming: Degradation of Earth’s Atmosphere; Sealevel Rise; Ozone Holes; Vegetation Response
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Sect16/Sect16_2.html
However, I believe that velocity map is quickly becoming dated.
Timothy Chase // January 18, 2008 at 11:36 am
Antarctic Ice
Bob wrote:
Tamino’s skill lies in his ability to reveal things for what they are.
You had stated:
I had responded:
The two aren’t comparable.
Bob wrote:
Measuring temperatures from space began in 1979. The satellite era began in 1957 with Sputnik. The first satellite images of Earth were made in 1959.
Bob wrote:
You are mistaken. Please see Tamino’s earlier post Sea Ice, North and South, Then and Now
Bob wrote:
You might want to reread it. See directly above.
Bob wrote:
If you are speaking about sea ice, snow will actually tend to limit the freezing of ice. It insulates, which means that the ocean it makes the ocean less able to radiate heat.
Please see figure 2 on page 25 (pdf page 29) of:
JISAO 2006-2007 Annual Report
Joint Institute for the Study of the Atmosphere and Ocean
http://jisao.washington.edu/JISAO_DOCS/JISAO_AnnualReport07.pdf
However, this may be more important with respect to sea ice thickness than sea ice area. Are you only concerned with the latter?
Bob wrote:
Could it be the season? Antarctic Autumn (March, April and May) show cooling over much of the ocean which will set the stage for it’s winter. The warming I showed you was the rise in average annual skin temperature. But each season is different.
More ice being dumped by glaciers? More fresh water from the glacier melt? Salt water has a lower freezing point. The important thing isn’t the sea ice in the southern hemisphere — that isn’t what is going to add meters of sea level. What is important is the ice on land, the fact that Antarctica is losing ice mass. And along the coasts glaciers have been predominantly picking up speed, although there are exceptions. If you see a great deal more Southern Ocean “sea ice” in the coming years, it may not be a good sign.
A velocity Map of Antarctic Glaciers
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Sect16/map+.jpg
… from:
Remote Sensing Tutorial, Section 16, Part 2
Evidence for Global Warming: Degradation of Earth’s Atmosphere; Sealevel Rise; Ozone Holes; Vegetation Response
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Sect16/Sect16_2.html
However, I believe that velocity map is quickly becoming dated.
Timothy Chase // January 18, 2008 at 5:59 pm
John Finn wrote:
It is consistent with polar amplification.
January 12, 2008 at 8:45 pm, January 13, 2008 at 11:34 pm, January 15, 2008 at 2:08 am in the thread Dead Heat. See especially the second one.
John Finn wrote:
JCH wrote:
Global warming (or cooling) will involve polar amplification, and a tendency for the positive phase of the Arctic Oscillation to dominate would appear to be associated with warming, whereas the negative phase dominates with cooling. This would be a good example of warming or cooling projecting onto the modes of natural variability, much as global warming has the balance between El Ninos and La Ninas shift towards the El Ninos.
Here is the central idea:
The variations in the behavior of the Arctic Oscillation to behave with a certain proponsity is due to the fact that it is sensitive to its environment. Or so it would seem. But I’m no climatologist.
John Finn wrote:
Yep. That’s the way it works with models, too. Equator warms more quickly than the Antarctic which is in the middle of the ocean and far away from where the main action first takes place — polar amplification in the Arctic, in the hemisphere that has more land and therefore less thermal inertia.
You incorporate the physical laws into your model, and all of the sudden like it starts behaving like the real world. Go figure.
But you run the model long enough and you see similar polar amplification occur in the southern hemisphere. And I suspect that it would start with something that looks kind of like what we are seeing along the West Antarctic Peninsula.
I know, I know: I probably should have mentioned this all before.
Wait a second…. What’s this?
Temperatures in Greenland… and Antarctica
January 13, 2008 at 11:34 pm
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/dead-heat/#comment-12024
Oh, oh…
John Finn wrote:
Actually that wouldn’t be “consistent” with polar amplification of global cooling. (Hard to say, though, since there are so many fluctuations in the data. Probably not statistically significant.)
But you are right, according to this 44-64N did not cool as much as 24-44N.
However, Vancouver CA is at 49 degrees latitude. The US is below it. And at the end of World War II the United States was responsible for 50% of the Gross World Product. Europe? Asia? Devastated. So at the end of World War II, I figure at least 50% of aerosols were coming from 24-44N.
Bob // January 19, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Timothy,
Well at least I now know the reason for my confusion. I was referring to the satellite era as it relates to sea ice records from space, and you were using a more broad definition going back to Sputnik in 1957. Yes, SH sea ice had declined from 1957 to the late 70s. Can we agree that based on each relevant graph in the Tamino post “Sea Ice, North and South, Then and Now” shows no SH sea ice shrinkage since 1978? Can we agree that Tamino used satellite data from 1978 to present, and HadSST data (based on ship records I believe, please correct me if I am wrong) from 1978 going all the way back to 1870? Can you direct me to a link providing the Sputnik SH sea ice photo data? Can you direct me to a link providing any satellite data on SH sea ice prior to 1978?
Hank Roberts // January 20, 2008 at 7:42 am
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2003/2003GL018031.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?q=antarctic+%2B%22sea+ice%22+%2B1960
Hank Roberts // January 20, 2008 at 7:48 am
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-8369.2003.tb00091.x
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VGB-4MNYJS0-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9b34ea809ec12b971e9585206aeed4af
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/how/antarctic_catalogue.shtml
http://www.scienceschool.usyd.edu.au/media/8-curran-slides.pdf
Timothy Chase // January 20, 2008 at 10:09 am
Bob wrote:
Bob, no satellite images of the earth were taken by Sputnik.
However, according to the Wikipedia link on Satellite Imagery, “The first satellite photographs of Earth were made August 14, 1959 by the US satellite Explorer 6.” Likewise the famous Blue Marble photo was taken by the crew of Apollo 17 on December 7, 1972.
SH Sea Ice Extent Record
Now with respect to the Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent record, it shows a decline that began at least as far back as the 1940s. However, as Tamino notes:
As such, from 1963 forward, the sea ice extent record for the southern hemisphere is continuous, and is one of steep and continuous decline until late 1978. Now Tamino joins together the HadISST record with the satellite record, and clearly the fit isn’t perfect. However, looking at Tamino’s graph showing 1960-2010, clearly the sea ice extent has declined dramatically not simply since the 1940s, but dramatically since the beginning of the continuous record in 1963.
A Point of Disagreement regarding SH Sea Ice Extent
Bob wrote:
Judging from the chart showing SH Extent, 1960-2010, it would appear that sea ice extent continued to decline from late 1978 to 1980, that even today, sea ice extent is generally lower than it was at the beginning of the satellite southern hemisphere sea ice extent record going off that record, or slightly before 1978 if one uses the HadISST.
Both the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere suffered dramatic losses in sea ice extent throughout the 20th Century, dramatic losses since the beginning of earth satellite imaging in 1959. Both have suffered dramatic losses since the beginning of continous records, which for the southern hemisphere began in 1963.
Points of Agreement?
Bob wrote:
It declined dramatically over that period, and it declined dramatically since the beginning of continuous records. I should think that this is something we can both agree on.
However, I hope that we can also agree that the state of Antarctica’s glaciers have greater significance for humanity. And I also hope that we can both agree that the trend in Antarctica’s ice mass is more important than southern hemisphere sea ice extent. Likewise, I believe that when Nature prints an article stating that Antarctica’s ice mass balance shows “a 75% increase in losses since 1996,” this is cause for concern.
A rise or fall in sea ice extent will have very little impact upon sea level. Ice shelf collapse, which has been tied to human activity, will have more of an effect, particularly since ice shelves tend to be the cork in the bottle as far as glacier flow is concerned. When they collapse, glaciers tend to accelerate. The accelerating decline in Greenland’s and Antarctica’s ice mass balance will have an impact upon sea level. And that may have a substantial impact upon humanity given the fact that roughly half of the world’s population lives within 100 km of the coasts.
Timothy Chase // January 20, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Bob wrote:
Bob, no satellite images of the earth were taken by Sputnik.
However, according to the Wikipedia link on Satellite Imagery, “The first satellite photographs of Earth were made August 14, 1959 by the US satellite Explorer 6.” Likewise the famous Blue Marble photo was taken by the crew of Apollo 17 on December 7, 1972.
SH Sea Ice Extent Record
Now with respect to the Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent record, it shows a decline that began at least as far back as the 1940s. However, as Tamino notes:
As such, from 1963 forward, the sea ice extent record for the southern hemisphere is continuous, and is one of steep and continuous decline until late 1978. Now Tamino joins together the HadISST record with the satellite record, and clearly the fit isn’t perfect. However, looking at Tamino’s graph showing 1960-2010, clearly the sea ice extent has declined dramatically not simply since the 1940s, but dramatically since the beginning of the continuous record in 1963.
A Point of Disagreement regarding SH Sea Ice Extent
Bob wrote:
Judging from the chart showing SH Extent, 1960-2010, it would appear that sea ice extent continued to decline from late 1978 to 1980, that even today, sea ice extent is generally lower than it was at the beginning of the satellite southern hemisphere sea ice extent record going off that record, or slightly before 1978 if one uses the HadISST.
Both the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere suffered dramatic losses in sea ice extent throughout the 20th Century, dramatic losses since the beginning of earth satellite imaging in 1959. Both have suffered dramatic losses since the beginning of continous records, which for the southern hemisphere began in 1963.
Points of Agreement?
Bob wrote:
It declined dramatically over that period, and it declined dramatically since the beginning of continuous records. I should think that this is something we can both agree on.
However, I hope that we can also agree that the state of Antarctica’s glaciers have greater significance for humanity. And I also hope that we can both agree that the trend in Antarctica’s ice mass is more important than southern hemisphere sea ice extent. Likewise, I believe that when Nature prints an article stating that Antarctica’s ice mass balance shows “a 75% increase in losses since 1996,” this is cause for concern.
A rise or fall in sea ice extent will have very little impact upon sea level. Ice shelf collapse, which has been tied to human activity, will have more of an effect, particularly since ice shelves tend to be the cork in the bottle as far as glacier flow is concerned. When they collapse, glaciers tend to accelerate. The accelerating decline in Greenland’s and Antarctica’s ice mass balance will have an impact upon sea level, and that may have a substantial impact upon humanity given the fact that roughly half of the world’s population lives within 100 km of the coasts.
Timothy Chase // January 20, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Sorry, duplicate posts. I thought the first had failed to get through.
Bob // January 20, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Timothy,
I absolutely agree with you that the state of Antarctica’s glaciers have a greater significance for humanity. And I agree with IPCC’s assessment that it is likely these glaciers are shrinking. A couple more questions for you:
Are you concerned about the decline in arctic sea ice extent?
Do you think a diminished arctic sea ice extent could impact the Greenland glacier?
Do you think the opposite could occur in Antarctica?
Hank Roberts // January 20, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Do look at least at the first 2 links I offer, for earlier references using satellite sources. The other 4 supplement them.
Bob // January 20, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Hank,
Yes, I saw no satellite ice data at all prior to the mid to late 70s, although plenty of ground and airplane pictures. Did I miss something?
Hank Roberts // January 21, 2008 at 1:52 am
Note my point here, you can look this stuff up for yourself; if you can’t find it ask any good reference librarian for help before claiming you’ve looked.
This search:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%2Bantarctic+%2B%22sea+ice%22+%2B1960+%2Bsatellite
First item found is:
[PDF] 30-Year satellite record reveals contrasting Arctic and Antarctic decadal sea ice variability …
MT Series - GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, 1970 - climate.envsci.rutgers.edu
… in Antarctic sea ice extent in the early 1970’s, an anomaly that apparently began in the late 1960’s, as observed in early visible and infrared satellite …
That’s the Google Scholar retrieval.
—–excerpt—
In contrast to the NH, the SH sea ice cover decreased dramatically over the period 1973–1977, then increased at
an overall rate of 0.10 ± 0.05 x 10e6 km2/10yr from 1977 through 2002. This trend reversal results from the large positive anomaly in Antarctic sea ice extent observed in the early 1970’s (Figure 1b). The decreasing positive anomaly from 1973 to 1976 (Figure 1b) is part of a longer period sea ice anomaly that began in the late 1960’s and was observed in early visible and infrared satellite images [Streten, 1973; Sissala et al., 1972; Zwally et al., 1983b]. From 1968 to 1973 there was an increase in ice extent, preceding the
1973–1976 decrease (see Figure 5 in Zwally et al. [1983b]).
The large positive sea ice extent anomaly in 1973 has been associated with a ‘‘cold’’ ENSO event [Streten, 1973; Carleton, 1989]. The fact that this short-term positive anomaly results in a negative trend for the 30-year period emphasizes the need for a longer time series extended back
in time using, for instance, available visible and infrared satellite measurements.
—-end excerpt—–
Hank Roberts // January 21, 2008 at 1:56 am
Frequently Recommended Reading:
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Guide to teach how to ask technical questions in a way more likely to get a satisfactory answer.
catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Read, at least, the
Table of Contents
Translations
Disclaimer
Introduction
Before You Ask
When You Ask
Choose your forum carefully
Web and IRC forums directed towards newbies often give the quickest response
As a second step, use project mailing lists
Use meaningful, specific subject headers
Make it easy to reply
Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language
Send questions in accessible, standard formats
Be precise and informative about your problem
Volume is not precision
Don’t claim that you have found a bug
Grovelling is not a substitute for doing your homework
Describe the problem’s symptoms, not your guesses
Describe your problem’s symptoms in chronological order
Describe the goal, not the step
Don’t ask people to reply by private e-mail
Be explicit about your question
When asking about code
Don’t post homework questions
Prune pointless queries
Don’t flag your question as “Urgent”, even if it is for you
Courtesy never hurts, and sometimes helps
Follow up with a brief note on the solution
How To Interpret Answers
RTFM and STFW: How To Tell You’ve Seriously Screwed Up
If you don’t understand…
Dealing with rudeness
On Not Reacting Like A Loser
Questions Not To Ask
Good and Bad Questions
If You Can’t Get An Answer
How To Answer Questions in a Helpful Way
Related Resources
Acknowledgements
—–
I particularly commend his section titled “How To Answer Questions in a Helpful Way” to myself. Every day.
I’m not good at it yet. I’m trying.
At least online.
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