Open Mind

Not Alike

October 19, 2007 · 198 Comments

A reader has suggested that modern warming, and the “medieval warm period” (MWP), are alike. In fact he states:

What you need to show, to keep your position logical, is that there is some difference between MWP and present day warming other than the hypothesized cause. Because the hypothesized cause is what is up for examination.

You need to show that either in amount of warming, geographical spread or something else, the two are quite different. Otherwise, the argument similar effects similar causes is very strong.

I strongly disagree; the argument “similar effects similar causes” is very weak. But let’s compare modern warming to the MWP anyway.


Rather than examining the temperature reconstruction of Mann, Bradley, & Hughes (the classic “hockey stick,” which the reader suggests is untrustworthy) or the later reconstruction of Mann & Jones, I’ll look at the reconstruction of Moberg et al. (2005, Highly variable Northern Hemisphere temperatures reconstructed from low- and high-resolution proxy data, Nature, 443, 613-617, doi:10.1038/nature03265), because it shows a much stronger MWP (and “little ice age,” or LIA) than any other reconstruction I’ve got. I guess that’s why they call it “highly variable.” Also, it conveniently spans the entire time period from year 1 to 1979, so we’ll have the medieval period “covered.”

moberg05.jpg

Both the warmth of the MWP and coolness of the LIA are apparent. Moberg’s reconstruction is for northern hemisphere temperature only, and only goes to 1979, so to compare it to modern warming we’ll need more up-to-date northern hemisphere data. I’ll use data from GISS, but I can’t use the GISS data as is because its “reference period” (for computing temperature anomaly) is 1951 to 1980, while the Moberg reconstruction uses a reference period 1961 to 1990; that will make the GISS data seem too warm by comparison. But I can easily “cool” the GISS data by computing temperature anomaly relative to the reference period 1961 to 1990, and bring them onto the same scale:

mobgiss.jpg

We can already see a notable difference between modern warming and the MWP: modern temperatures are hotter. The warmest single year in the northern hemisphere is 2005, with temperature anomaly (relative to the 1961-1990 reference period) 0.90 deg.C, while the warmest single year in the Moberg reconstruction is 1105, at temperature anomaly 0.37 deg.C. So the warmest modern year is 0.53 deg.C hotter than the warmest medieval year, according to Moberg.

The eye suggests another possible difference: modern warming is steeper than medieval warming. The “modern global warming era” covers about the last 30 years. How does the modern warming rate compare to what was observed in medieval times?

I computed the rate of warming for every possible time span, from each year to 30 years later, in the Moberg reconstruction. The fastest warming occured from 867 to 897, at a rate of 0.0183 deg.C/yr. I also computed the rate for every similar-length time span in the thermometer record; the fastest warming is from 1976 to 2006 (which is the most recent, by the way, since 2007 isn’t over yet) at a rate of 0.0300 deg.C/yr. That’s quite a lot bigger than 0.0183; in fact it’s 64% bigger.

mwprate.jpg

modrate.jpg

So, modern warming has reached temperatures in the northern hemisphere which are 0.53 deg.C hotter than any in medieval times, and the modern warming rate is 64% greater than the fastest rate in medieval times. The biggest 30-year warming trend in medieval times amounted to 0.55 deg.C, while modern times have seen 0.9 deg.C warming over the same time span (again, 64% bigger). These differences are especially significant, because the Moberg reconstruction gives us nearly 2000 years to work with, so there are a lot more time spans to test, hence a lot more opportunities for the data to reach a greater extreme. Yet despite the vastly greater number of data points to test in the Moberg record, the hottest temperatures are occuring right now, and the fastest warming (by far) is occuring now. The conclusion is unavoidable: modern warming is NOT like the medieval warm period. Not even close.

Even if they were similar, the argument “similar effects similar causes” is very weak. But they aren’t. What do you think of the argument “different effects different causes”?

Categories: Global Warming · climate change

198 responses so far ↓

  • KM // October 19, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Amazing post! Also, isnt the moberg and all other reconstructions that show a MWP and LIA very regional, i.e. only Northern Hemisphere? According to what i’ve read and understand, based on proxies worldwide (both northern & southern), there was no such thing as MWP and LIA in the southern hemisphere or on a worldwide scale, was there?

    [Response: I haven't studied southern-hemisphere reconstructions, just northern-hemisphere and global ones. Unfortunately, there's far less available data for southern-hemisphere studies than for the north.

    Every reconstruction I've looked at has a MWP and LIA, but in most (like the classic hockey-stick), they're incredibly tiny. Moberg, however, shows a rather obvious MWP/LIA.]

  • cody // October 19, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    Thank you for this. This is exactly the plane on which one likes to conduct the argument. I will read, consider, and reply. But for now, a very nice post.

  • J // October 19, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    One question: Are both Moberg and GISTEMP referencing the same northern hemisphere? That sounds stupid, but I mean is it the full hemisphere, or extratropical (e.g., +30 to +90 degrees)?

    [Response: They're the same. Some northern-hemisphere reconstructions (like Esper et al.) are extratropical, but not Moberg.]

  • nanny_govt_sucks // October 19, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Rather than examining the temperature reconstruction of Mann, Bradley, & Hughes (the classic “hockey stick,” which the reader suggests is untrustworthy) or the later reconstruction of Mann & Jones, I’ll look at the reconstruction of Moberg et al. (2005, Highly variable Northern Hemisphere temperatures reconstructed from low- and high-resolution proxy data, Nature, 443, 613-617, doi:10.1038/nature03265)

    My understanding is that Moberg uses many of the same proxies (including the controversial Bristlecones) as the reconstructions that the poster suggested were untrustworthy. You may need to look elsewhere if you really want to make your point.

  • climateleeds // October 19, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    This is exactly the sort of data that many of us are seeking.

    I am assuming that the Moburg data is the stuff that was used in the Great Swindle (UK Channel 4) last year?

    Will link to you, if that is OK/

    [Response: I don't know which reconstruction was used in the great swindle.]

  • Dano // October 19, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    many of the same proxies (including the controversial Bristlecones) as the reconstructions that the poster suggested were untrustworthy.

    Problem is, na_gs, anything that doesn’t comport with a certain ideology is “controversial”. Is it “controversial” in the literature? Among the folk who do that sort of thing for a living?

    Surely a blog entry and some real purty charts is good enough for some, but what about the 99.975% of decsion-maker’s staff who don’t read character assassination websites? How will this fabulous information get to them? Why, of course, in the journals. Come talk to us when the FabSteve publishes something for peer review.

    Best,

    D

  • Ian Hopkinson // October 19, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    climateleeds - I believe the TGGWS graph comes from the 1990 IPCC report. See here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MWP_and_LIA_in_IPCC_reports

    The original data appears to come from a chap called H.H. Lamb. I believe the original citation is:

    H. H. Lamb, 1965, Paleogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, vol. 1, pp. 13-37.

    …but I haven’t seen this paper. I understand the reconstruction is based on historical records and some proxies for central England. There’s a full publication list for H.H. Lamb here:

    http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/pubs/byauthor/lamb_hh.htm

    First entry 1939, last entry 1995!! Looks like he may have published more in the area post 1995

  • John Cross // October 19, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    Nanny, just to clarify, Moberg actually plots the low res data by itself so if people are really interested in seeing the difference they can look at Figure 2a.

    By the way, how is your reply coming? Still researching it?

    Regards,
    John

  • Ian Hopkinson // October 19, 2007 at 7:12 pm

    I meant to say post 1965 in the last sentence there…

  • Julian Flood // October 19, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    I’m puzzled by the start date: I thought global warming started in 1850ish. I’ve noticed that recent discussion of AGW is beginning to shift to the last thirty years. Is there some scientific reason for this? Some new study? Or, wicked thought, does that start date give a really good result? (Shame on me for even considering such a thing!)

    For your own entertainment, might I suggest you throw away the Folland and Parker bucket correction and look at warming rates for NH SSTs (unsmoothed, please) from 1938 to 1944. And my entertainment — I’m curious about the answer myself.

    If my eyeball estimate is right, I’d be interested in your interpretation of the result. An explanation would be nice as you seem to be into precedence….

    BTW, while I’m here… Do you happen to know of any study which would generate a temperature profile of the atmosphere if AGW were caused by reduction in low level oceanic cloud? I’ve googled around but cannot find anything — maybe, with better insight and resources, you might be able to find something. TIA.

    JF

    [Response: According to thermometer records, global warming begins about 1915. From then until about 1945, warming is believed to be due to a combination of greenhouse gases and increased solar output. From about 1945 to 1975, temperature levels off due to the cooling effect of man-made aerosols. The "modern global warming era" begins around 1975. By the way, it's not the *start date* that is relevant to the method, its the length of the time interval. And I chose it *before* I knew what the result would be.

    1938 to 1944 is definitely on the short side for establishing temperature trends, and I wouldn't know where to get NH sea surface temperature from medieval times for comparison.

    I'm not aware of any study that generates a temperature profile of the atmosphere if AGW were caused by reduction in low level oceanic cloud.]

  • Hank Roberts // October 19, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    > swindle

    You can look this up. Google Scholar will help. Try “global warning swindle” +data. Use the “Wisdom” butto … er, read carefully and think.

    “The Great Global Warming Swindle”: a critique.
    David Jones, Andrew Watkins, Karl Braganza and Michael Coughlan
    National Climate Centre, Bureau of Meteorology

    http://www.aussmc.org/documents/BAMOS_GGWS_SUBMISSION.pdf

    “In summary the documentary is not scientifically sound and presents a flawed and very misleading interpretation of the science. While giving the impression of being based on peer-­reviewed science, much of the material presented is either out-­of-­date, already discredited or of uncertain origin. A number of the graphs and figures used in the documentary are not based on any known or published climate data, while others are presented schematically, and hence may confuse and mislead the viewer.

    Detailed Overview of Errors

    Since its first screening in the UK, errors in the claims made in the programme have been well documented. This critique draws upon two sources 2,3 that have provided detailed discussions of factual errors in the GGWS.

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 12:06 am

    Do you happen to know of any study which would generate a temperature profile of the atmosphere if AGW were caused by reduction in low level oceanic cloud?

    here’s one

    Since the beginning of the industrial era ( 1750), nonsolar sources contributed a net forcing of 0.85 ± 1.3Wm−2 [IPCC, 2001] (assuming the errors are Gaussian). Over the
    past century alone, this number is 0.5 ± 1.3Wm−2. The main reason why the error is large is because of the uncertain “indirect” contribution of aerosols, namely, their effect
    on cloud cover. It is currently estimated to be in the range −1 ± 1Wm−2 [IPCC, 2001]. Thus, anthropogenic sources alone contributed to a warming of 0.14 ± 0.36K since the beginning of the 20th Century.

    The sensitivity result can also be used to estimate the solar contribution towards global warming. Over the past century, the increased solar activity has been responsible for
    a stronger solar wind and a lower CRF. Using results of §3.6, the reduced ionization and LACC were responsible for an increased radiative forcing of 1.3 ± 0.5Wm−2. In addition, the globally averaged solar luminosity increased by about 0.4±0.1Wm−2 according to Solanki and Fligge [1998]; Hoyt and Schatten [1993]; Lean et al. [1995].

    Thus, increased solar activity is responsible for a total increase of 1.7±0.6Wm−2. Using our estimate for , we find Tsolar = 0.47 ± .19K.
    We therefore find that the combined solar and anthropogenic sources were responsible for an increase of 0.61 ± 0.42K. This should be compared with the observed 0.57 ± 0.17K increase in global surface temperature [IPCC, 2001].

    In other words, the result we find for the sensitivity and drivers are consistent with the observed temperature increase. This conclusion, about the relative role of solar vs.
    anthropogenic sources was independently reached by comparing the non-monotonic temperature increase with the non-monotonic solar activity increase and the monotonic increase in GHGs [Soon et al., 1996b].

    http://www.phys.huji.ac.il/~shaviv/articles/sensitivity.pdf

    [Response: What does this have to do with the temperature *profile* of the atmosphere?]

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 12:10 am

    I might add, the state of atmospheric physics is quite unsettled by this recent paper

    These low cross sections in the photolytically active region of the solar spectrum result in a rate of photolysis of ClOOCl in the stratosphere that is much lower than currently recommended. For conditions representative of the polar vortex (solar zenith angle of 86o, 20 km altitude, and O3 and temperature profiles measured in March 2000) calculated photolysis rates are a factor of 6 lower than the current JPL/NASA recommendation. This large discrepancy calls into question the completeness of present atmospheric models of polar ozone depletion.

    http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jpcafh/2007/111/i20/abs/jp067660w.html

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 12:21 am

    Is it “controversial” in the literature? Among the folk who do that sort of thing for a living?

    readers might want to see a previous thread here re Mann’s hockey stick, which was produced using tamped down bristlecone proxies and then grafting the modern instrumental record, much like Tamino has done here.
    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/millerism/

    sceptics should pay attention to comments by Glen Raphael

    If you bring the proxies up to date, the current rate of warming (as indicated by the average of the proxies) doesn’t look terribly out of line with past rates. It’s mainly if you tack part of the instrumental record onto the end of the proxy record - including proxies that don’t currently show warming - that “the significance of the current rate of warming” really jumps out.

    The NAS study confirmed most of M&Ms criticisms of the hockey stick. For instance, it agreed that bristlecone pine should not be used as a 20th century temperature proxy and it agreed that the reconstruction wasn’t statistically significant to the degree claimed. Nevertheless NAS concluded (as you do) that MBH’s flaws don’t matter because “other studies” reached similar findings.

    Problems with that:
    (1) many of these “other studies” have the exact same flaws as MBH! If you exclude all “other studies” that included data sources explicitly rejected by NAS (and by Wegman), you don’t have many studies left and you’ve lost some of the apparent agreement in trend. The illusion of consensus came from the fact that several other studies used strip-bark samples (bristlecone or foxtail) and similar methods to mine for the anomalous (and scary-looking) 20th-century trend.

    (per McIntyre’s NAS testimony, such studies included: Crowley and Lowery [2000] (two series), Esper et al. [2002] (two series),Mann and Jones [2003], Jones and Mann [2004] and Osborn and Briffa [2006] (two series))

  • tamino // October 20, 2007 at 12:41 am

    Just out of curiosity, I repeated the analysis using a time length of 100 yr instead of 30 yr. The fastest increase in the Moberg reconstruction is 0.0050 deg.C/yr from 1812 to 1912, but that’s not medieval; the fastest warming in medieval times is from 919 to 1019, at 0.0043 deg.C/yr. But the fastest modern increase is 0.0081 deg.C from 1906 to 2006, which is 88% faster.

    I strongly suspect that it really doesn’t matter what length one chooses as a time interval; for any reasonable choice modern warming is a lot faster than any equal-length time interval from medieval times, in spite of the vastly greater time span of data.

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 12:47 am

    are a factor of 6 lower than the current JPL/NASA recommendation

    let me repeat that conclusion, off by a factor of 6

    on an atmospheric model

    let’s spend billions on their latest consensus :)

  • DWPittelli // October 20, 2007 at 2:22 am

    Wouldn’t it be possible to compare apples to apples? That is, one could compare the rate of estimated temperature increase in the MWP to the rate of increase in the most recent period, as estimated by the same collection of proxies as used during the MWP.

    Failing to do that — instead comparing ancient proxies to recent thermometer readings — it is more than possible that all you are seeing is the result of weaknesses in the proxies’ accuracy. We might of course need some proxies to be updated, but failure to include the effects of this latest, apparently warmest period means an incomplete calibration and no real knowledge about what we might expect from the proxies during the warmest periods (i.e., the MWP and the present).

  • Doug Clover // October 20, 2007 at 2:26 am

    Who the hell is Glen Raphael and why should I give his opinion more weight than the IPCC?

  • Doug Clover // October 20, 2007 at 2:28 am

    P.S.Tamino I really appreciate the way you present your statisical analysis. Clear and transparent.

  • Julian Flood // October 20, 2007 at 6:40 am

    Re response to: Julian Flood // Oct 19th 2007 at 7:36 pm

    Yes, I realise that there’s no chance of doing a comparison with the past. However, the warming rate for that brief period dwarfs the rates you are examining and as such merits thinking about. My own take is, of course, that it’s surface pollution.

    Using the Hadcrut3 graph, I’ve eyeballed the warming and decided that we’ve got a steady .14 deg/decade since 1910. Away from the fussy confusing factors that bedevil the land record, SSTs are so much easier to understand, even with the dubious F&P correction. (There’s a valuable PhD in it for someone who uses westerly facing lighthouse data to recalibrate the SSTs.)

    I feel a little elevated this morning. One prediction my oil sheen/surfactant hypothesis led me to 18 months ago is all over the news this morning: CO2 pull down into the ocean is reducing. Who’d have thought it? Well, me, actually, and the prediction has been on my website all this time. I’ve even proposed a mechanism for the effect. Another prediction is that oceanic boundary layer stratocu coverage will decrease and that is what’s causing the warming. I hope someone is running the atmosphere profiles off as we speak.

    JF

  • cody // October 20, 2007 at 7:13 am

    Tamino has given a pretty straightforward account of the evidence. The question is whether it sufficient to support the conclusion.

    This is what we have to accept to be convinced by it. We need to believe that the proxy reconstructions you can look at at here:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7026/suppinfo/nature03265.html
    are fine grained and accurate enough to tell us not only about the absolute temperature levels in the MWP, but also about their rate of change, to accuracy which is comparable to the modern instrumental record.
    We then have to believe that the modern instrumental record, again in terms of rate of change, not simply level, is uncontaminated by UHI effects.
    Finally we have to believe that joining the two series together is legitimate.

    I have difficulties with all three propositions. If you look at Moberg’s series, I don’t think any reasonable person would accept that they are comparable in accuracy or fineness of grain to the modern instrumental record. You notice that Tamino’s post has much longer time scales for the MWP. Were it to show the same time scales, the paucity of the data points would be clear.

    I agree with a previous poster, that if we are talking rate of change, what needs to be compared is the tracking of the same variable throughout the two series being compared. If only because this is one source of error that should be eliminated. We need to see exactly the same proxies brought up to date and shown side by side. If we did this with tree rings, however, we would encounter the famous divergence problem. We would find that the proxies and the surface temperature record are diverging in recent years. So it seems likely that, if you just compare proxies, MWP and today are not as different as the post suggests. Maybe, Tamino, you have access to an up to date proxy series and can do this? I do not.

    Finally, I think the rate of change in the surface temperature record as well as absolute levels are pretty dubious. We have had the fracas about Freedom of Information Act release of the Chinese station metadata, which essentially showed this series to be an unknown quantity and cannot be relied on. The quality of even the US stations is pretty bad. If the proxies and the surface stations in the US diverge, it is not totally clear which to pick.

    Lets be clear, I am not denying that there has been warming since 1950, and particularly since the infamous winter of ‘48 in Europe. The Elfstedentocht is an example. I am doubting that we have evidence which in any other field would convince us to bet on the modern period being dramatically different from MWP.

    By the way, as a footnote, the stats in Moberg, and a couple of the proxy series, notably the Arabian sea ones, are very dodgy. But its not my purpose to discredit Moberg. Its a question of what this kind of evidence can legitimately be used to prove.

  • san quintin // October 20, 2007 at 9:35 am

    One poster asked about the Little Ice Age and whether there is a Southern Hemisphere signal. There is a clear glacier recession event from late-nineteenth century glacier limits in much of Patagonia….and similar events in New Zealand. Whether a MWP signal exists is less clear (although Neil Glasser identified a significant glacier recession at this time in the North Patagonian Icefield). We should know the answer later next year!

  • tamino // October 20, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    cody:

    You claimed the MWP was like modern warming. I compared them, using the data I had to characterize their temperature histories which was most favorable to your case, and it turned out that they are not alike, not even close. It probably took you by surprise, because you replied, “I will read, consider, and reply. But for now, a very nice post.”

    The analysis is incontrovertibly correct, there’s no chance to dispute it. But you have an attachment to disbelief, so you fall back to the data-can’t-be-trusted position. You don’t trust the Mann/Bradley/Hughes hockey stick, you don’t trust the Moberg data. You don’t even trust the modern thermometer record; you even repeated the old “contaminated by UHI” canard! That’s not a valid argument, it’s proof just how weak your position is.

    So I’ll tell you my opinion: it doesn’t matter what data I use or what analysis I apply. You’ll find a rationalization for not believing it. I can point to the satellite estimates of lower-troposphere temperature and how well they track the thermometer record — you’ll find a reason to disbelieve. I can show the mass balance of glaciers, or the cumulative mass balance, but you’ll doubt that too. I can show the changes in arctic sea ice but you’ll invent a reason to doubt that this shows how rapidly warming is happening.

    Meanwhile, windansea will be confronted with “fingerprints” (like stratospheric cooling) which utterly contradict his solar hypothesis, and when asked for a published scientific work which shows the atmospheric temperature profile we would expect from solar warming, will give a lengthy comment with a lot of fancy-sounding words and a reference to a paper which has nothing to do with the temperature profile. He’ll link to the co2science web site. Steven Mosher will refer to “Pascal’s wager” and accuse those of us who accept what the numbers and our eyes are telling us, of a “religious” belief. These aren’t valid arguments, they’re proof just how weak their position is.

    Your (and others’) attitude is exactly the opposite of the title of this blog. So I’ll continue to post interesting, relevant, enlightening data and analysis of global climate. I do this for those who are willing to listen. If any of them have questions, I’ll be happy to reply.

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    [Response: What does this have to do with the temperature *profile* of the atmosphere?]

    here you go

    http://www.spacecenter.dk/publications/scientific-report-series/Scient_No._3.pdf

    Reply to Lockwood and FrÄohlich
    -
    The persistent role of the Sun in climate forcing
    Henrik Svensmarky and Eigil Friis-Christensen
    Danish National Space Center, Copenhagen, Denmark

    Their analysis relies on data on surface air temperature which, they say, “does not respond to the solar cycle”. Yet over the past 20 years the solar cycle remains fully apparent in variations both of tropospheric air temperature and of ocean sub-surface water temper-
    ature (Fig. 1).

    When the response of the climate system to the solar cycle is apparent in the troposphere and ocean, but not in the global surface temperature, one can only wonder about the quality of the surface temperature record. For
    whatever reason, it is a poor guide to Sun-driven physical processes that are still plainly persistent in the climate system.

  • windansea // October 20, 2007 at 3:22 pm

    Who the hell is Glen Raphael and why should I give his opinion more weight than the IPCC?

    I said sceptics should pay attention, not true believers

  • Hank Roberts // October 20, 2007 at 3:32 pm

    > I do this for those who are willing
    > to listen. If any of them have
    > questions, I’ll be happy to reply.

    It’d be easier to have a conversation if it weren’t for the red herrings.

    Ever read Vonnegut’s “Harrison Bergeron”?

  • Petro // October 20, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    There is a fundamental difference between open-minded and close-minded thinking. Basically, open-minded person can change his view, when confronted with the facts. Close-minded person lacks this ability.

    Presumably both characteristics have some meaning for the survival of human species, since both has persisted throughout at least historical period. Open-mindness can cope better with changing environment, while close-minded perferts in stability.

    Close-minded person does change their views over time, unfortunately the pace of change is slow. Before the change happens, close-minded person pulls out all the excuses, which support his ill-founded belief.

    The global climate change is not too novel observation, Keeling started his measurements in the fifties. The rising level of CO2 in the atmosphere was demonstrated beyond any doubt in the sixties. The changes in the climate can be observed by layman at the latest in the turn of the millenium.

    The close-minded of this blog do not change their view on the global warming and its harmfulness until bad weather causes them losses personnally.

    Alas, only Katrina in their butt teaches them.

  • NeuvoLiberal // October 21, 2007 at 6:53 am

    Excellent post, Tamino.

    I was wondering if you could post something on the latest news on Atlantic ocean’s CO2 saturation reported here: Oceans are ’soaking up less CO2′? I tried, but couldn’t find the data for this.

    Please see my post on Dimmock Vs Gore’s movie here. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

  • cody // October 21, 2007 at 7:24 am

    The debate has unfortunately descended to a level when it is no longer about rational argument on the facts and conclusions. As usual when you are not immediately convinced by an argument in favor of AGW, I am being attacked for a variety of personal failings, none of which I do have.

    I will admit to congenital or acquired scepticism reinforced by acquaintance with human nature. I have lived through Limits to Growth, the Population Bomb, Global Cooling, the Dot Com bubble, and the claim that in 45 minutes Saddam could unleash weapons of mass destruction on me. My parents lived through the collective insanities of Nazism and Communism, and heard true believers turn purple denying the reality of both holocausts. Yes, I am sceptical. The historical evidence for Jesus also strikes me as flimsy.

    Now let us turn to the argument and please from now on leave me personally out of it.

    Tree rings are annual average affairs. Sediment deposited is a decadal affair. To get from either to surface temps is a computational inference. Surface temp measurements are taken daily. It is not stupid to wonder whether there might be discontinuities of shape or level in a curve which consists of two sets of temperatures, one derived from proxies, one measured directly (or at least more directly).

    Do you not think this is a legitimate point? Do you actually have a series of proxies (ones admitted to be temperature proxies and not CO2 or rainfall ones) which runs from (say) 1000AD to 2004AD. Can you put up the temperature curves inferred from it so we can see what we think? Would you mind plotting your two charts on the same horizontal scale, so we can see the data points?

    As to the surface temp record, consider these reasons for skepticism. First we have the surface stations project. They have documented failings in site management of a high order in a high proportion of US sites. Unless you think these failings have remained constant across the series, you have to admit that they cast doubt on the uniformity of the series of measurements. The ROW material is worse. It was claimed there were good station histories on the Chinese stations, but the authors refused to reveal what the stations were. Then the Freedom of Information Act forced them to reveal, and we found that on most of them there were no station histories at all. They had been, shall we say, optimistic with the truth. This is another valid reason for scepticism. In a country with rapid population growth and rapid unrbanization and industrialization, without station histories of a rigorous sort, we cannot have confidence in absence of heat island effects over time.

    I do not doubt that the raw readings for the stations are what the instruments showed. Well, except in the case of China during the Cultural Revolution, when a reasonable person might well have made up any number the regime wanted, in the interests of survival for himself and family.

    What I am doubting, in the surface temp record, is homogeneity of the series, and no contamination by urbanization around sites. You could rebut this by, for instance, showing maps of a few thousand sites in the US or China, and showing there had been no substantial building around them. Or you could show experimental work showing that rural sites show the same absolute temperatures as rural sites in the same area, today.

    At least these would be factual arguments and would be quite convincing if they can be made. Speculating about my personal characteristics is neither an argument to the issues, nor convincing.

  • cce // October 21, 2007 at 8:08 am

    As far as I know, HH Lamb’s chart of the temperature of central England (used in the First Assessment Report and in The Great Global Warming Swindle) was first used in Biological Significance of Climatic Changes in Britain (1965), which was a book that Lamb contributed to.

    Incidentally, I cover this in part 4 of my “climate change skeptic” presentation:
    http://cce.000webhost.org

    Yes, I’m working on a new narration. Please email me any corrections.

  • tamino // October 21, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    cody:

    I’m quite aware that no data set is without its flaws. I’m also aware that researchers have gone to extraordinary lengths to understand what those flaws are and how best to correct for them. I know about the urban heat island effect. I also know how it’s corrected for, and that if one excludes urban stations, the warming trend in global temperature based exclusively on rural station data is higher than that computed from all stations. I know about the inhomogeneity between annual and decadal data. I also know this has only a miniscule effect on 30-year (and 100-year) trends. I know about the surfacestations project. I also know that their efforts would be truly laudible if they had a clue about how to evaluate data, and didn’t exhibit blatant bias and a clear prejudgement of the result.

    Skepticism is a fine thing. But I really have to wonder, where was your skepticism when you stated, “We have two events which appear very similar - modern warming and MWP.”? Exactly what data did you base that conclusion on? What was your basis for stating “The satellite record seems to show a static SH and a rising NH”? You certainly couldn’t have got such an opinion from studying the satellite record.

    Your statements have consistently shown that your skepticism isn’t based on knowledge. I’m a big fan of skepticism in general, but I have no respect for skepticism rooted in ignorance. If you really want to call yourself a true and honest skeptic, I suggest you start with a very healthy skepticism about the state of your own knowledge.

    I’m not going to let yet another discussion get hijacked, degenerating into the same old regurgitation of the same old objections that have been responded to time and time again. Been there, done that. As it stands it looks like I was right on when I said it doesn’t matter what data I use or what analysis I apply. You’ll find a rationalization for not believing it.

  • Hank Roberts // October 21, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    > Harrison Bergeron
    On why and how interruption is used to prevent thought, unsurpassed:
    http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

  • cody // October 21, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    I think you cannot be used to the kind of debate, and skepticism, that anyone presenting a case for investment to a finance committee in business encounters. This is nothing compared to that. Yet, investments are made all the time. And if you say ‘you’ll find a rationalization….’, they laugh at you. Just focus on the argument and convince them, is what they say. When you do, they invest. If you convince them. Yes, its hard.

    I think maybe the problem with warmers is they have never been in a real debate.

  • windansea // October 21, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    I think maybe the problem with warmers is they have never been in a real debate.

    Damnit…There’s no time for debate…

    Jack Bauer mode off

  • BrianR // October 21, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    re Cody above - I simply do not understand analogies to business/engineering practices within the context of figuring out a complex natural system.

    Cody says: “Just focus on the argument and convince them, is what they say. When you do, they invest. If you convince them.”

    It’s all about how convincing you are? It’s all about ‘winning’ a debate? Unlike investing, the Earth’s climate will operate independently of how well-crafted your argument is. Who are you trying to convince? Sorry…I don’t get it.

  • luminous beauty // October 22, 2007 at 1:03 am

    I think what Cody is saying, is, that in the art of Sales it is necessary to coddle the preconceptions of the customer.

    As Poor Richard put it, ‘You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.’

    But an appeal to profit is not quite the same animal as an appeal to reason, except in the minds of those who believe the Law of Supply and Demand is a scientific principle more central than the laws of conservation.

    To those who believe the upfront costs of mitigation out-weigh the benefits of avoiding potential human catastrophe not measured in chrematistic terms (after all, the millions of potentially displaced Bangladeshis don’t have much personal wealth to lose), I would say, money is infinitely fungible. It doesn’t just disappear into a black hole, it changes hands. Every ‘cost’ is someone’s profit. Wealthy investors have backed the humanly destructive habit of warfare for millenia and earned tidy profits. Surely there are profits to be made in the more normatively positive effort of mitigating effects which indicate the potential for large losses in human productivity.

    It seems the major insurers and many large corporations have already made this calculus. Policy makers should be working to enhance and reinforce this investment potential, but we have a loud chorus of well orchestrated nay-sayers, doing everything they can in the political sphere to gum up the works.

  • Gaudenz Mischol // October 22, 2007 at 6:38 am

    One question comes to my mind: the reconstructions of past temperatures by tree rings or other proxies seem to be accurate to a tenth of a degree. Is it wise to compare these reconstructions to measured temperatures by thermometers (as tamino an others do it)? Why don’t we just continue the proxy reconstructions up to 2007 and see if they show the recent warming? If they track it I would have a lot of confidence in the proxy reconstructions, if they don’t I think we would have a problem in stating how much warmer or colder the MWP/LIA was. This would be the test for the proxies. As long as this is not done, it’s conjecture or belief, that proxies (like tree ring) are accurate “thermometers” to a tenth of a degree a thousand years an more back.

  • cody // October 22, 2007 at 9:36 am

    “I think what Cody is saying, is, that in the art of Sales it is necessary to coddle the preconceptions of the customer.”

    I am saying something quite different. In business, when one is trying to get money for a project, one normally presents a case to an investment committee of some sort. Often if the amounts are large, you go before a couple, one after the other.

    At these meetings, and in the preparatory work for them, your proposal and its assumptions are normally subjected to intense critical scrutiny. Anything you have asserted about market size, growth, projected costs, all that factual underpinning, is up for scrutiny, and in my experience, gets it.

    I was making the point that the level of skepticism which is obviously over the comfort threshold of Warmers, is well below what many of us experience on a day-to-day basis in everyday working lives. I conjecture that Warmers who find the level of skepticism I have voiced here distressing or unwarranted can never have worked in environments where loud fierce debate is normal.

    This is why you all feel there is something out of line, and that I am impossible to convince. My point is, the level of skepticism you are hearing from me is NORMAL. It is not untoward. Its how the world behaves.

    Now, returning to the point at hand, would one of you be good enough to plot a series of proxies, which are generally agreed to be real temperature proxies, ie not BC Pine, or those Arabian shells, and show us the statistical differences between MWP and Modern Warming.

    Please plot the axes using the same scale for both periods. Please also plot raw data. Do not plot adjusted data only. If you need to plot adjusted data, publish the algorithm. Also, if you plot temperatures derived from the series, please plot the series also, so we can see where the temps came from.

    It may be that the result will show a real difference between MWP and today. I would very much like to see it to find out.

    It is not being hard to please to find a series which consists of part temperature readings from instruments (adjusted) spliced to a set of temps reconstructed from proxies, suggestive of programs for further research, rather than the definitive proof which you all would like them to be received as.

  • KH // October 22, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    CODY

    I think you misunderstand the level of scrutiny in science. There are a lot of big egos in science, and scientists are more than willing to tear down the work of other scientists. However, the criteria are reason and intellectual honesty. I am a geophysicist. I belong to a professional association that publishes journals. Papers submitted to the journal have to go through a peer review process before publication. I have both submitted papers, and done peer review. The peer review process involves analyzing the paper for scientific correctness and validity. There are other criteria as well, but a paper is scrutinized by at least three other geophysicists. Often they are sent back for revision, and the process is repeated. When (or if) it is finally published, it is open to criticism from other scientists through replies to the journal, or submission of papers refuting the work. In addition, scientific results are presented at conventions. These papers are peer reviewed before presentation, and the presenter undergoes scrutiny in the QA after presentation. So the journals and the conventions represent the playing field of science. That is where the scientific game is played, not in the media or the web.

    The two largest associations of climate scientists are the American Geophysical Union and the American Meteorological Association. Both of these professional associations have summarized the results of their climate science papers in statements that can be read on their websites. Both conclude that global warming is occurring and can only be explained through increased CO2 in the atmosphere. I am a scientist, but climate science is not my area of expertise. However, I accept the results of those who do have the expertise. I do not accept the results of the few scientists on the fringe (and every science has its fringe scientists). The American Academy of Science has also looked at the climate science papers and come to the same conclusion. The Academy members are some of the most preeminent scientists in the US. Further, the National Academies of all the G8 countries plus China, India, and Brazil have concluded the same thing., not to mention the IPCC. Now, I would have to have some very good reasons to reject the conclusions of those groups. To reject their conclusions, I would have to reject the competence and integrity of the majority of their members. So until the denialists can show why I should do that, to me they will remain just hecklers on the sidelines of science.

  • Hank Roberts // October 22, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    The “sales model” is pervasive and dangerous.

    Compare this:
    http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/51-l/docs/rogers-commission/Appendix-F.txt

    to this:
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/22/national/a001811D01.DTL&tsp=1%22

  • Hank Roberts // October 22, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Oh, Cody — a “plot” is just a picture.
    You may find it convincing because it looks good.

    You have to do the statistics to know if an apparent trend is probably real.

  • Eli Rabett // October 22, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Gaudenz, there are two basic reasons your suggestion does not work. The first is that many of the proxy samples were taken years ago and only extend to the date they were taken (for example, tree rings and ice cores) so they cannot be “extended” to 2007 without taking new cores. given the large amount of effort and expenses to “bring the data base up to date” that is not practical. The Mann, Bradley and Hughes papers published in the late 90s, for example, cut off the calibration period in 1980, because many of the proxy samples extended only to that point. It is statistically challenging to consistently calibrate a number of proxys where the calibration period is different for different proxys. I don’t even know if it can be done.

    The second is that the proxys are determined by comparing some characteristic (say 18O) against the temperatures measured instrumentally so there is nothing a priori wrong with using instrumental temperature anomalies.

    A really significant problem for the future will be how to improve the calibration of old samples using a longer instrumental record.

  • Eli Rabett // October 22, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    Oh yes, another drive by, tree rings are NOT annual average affairs. If nothing else you can look at seasonal differences.

  • Steve Bloom // October 22, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    Note to Cody: Business rewards effective liars. Science doesn’t.

  • Steve Bloom // October 22, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    NeuvoLiberal, the ocean CO2 sink pub you want (and note the companion paper) is on Andrew Watson’s site here (scroll down for the pub page link).

    I’ll have a look at your AIT material by this weekend, but at a glance it sounds as if you would be interested in working on the ninepoints wikithat Michael Tobis has set up. I’m thinking in terms of completing it to the point that it can be a definitive permanent reference, as I think that AIT will remain a live issue for some time to come. If at all possible I want to have it whipped into shape by the time of the Nobel awards ceremony, at which time I’m pretty confident that there will be another spate of media attention to AIT’s veracity. I need to write up and post (on the wiki) some sort of description of what I think needs to be added, and I expect to do that this weekend. Following that, everyone who wants to work on it can commit to various pieces of the needed research.

  • John Mashey // October 22, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    Cody:
    “I conjecture that Warmers who find the level of skepticism I have voiced here distressing or unwarranted can never have worked in environments where loud fierce debate is normal.”

    I’ve reviewed a lot of business proposals, both internally in companies (at VP level), and externally as advisor to venture capitalists, who are born skeptics (but NOT denialists)…

    BUT, AGW evaluation is not like reviewing proposals for brand-new businesses, it’s like reviewing two existing lines of business:

    1) One of them has #1 market share position in every market that it has entered, has frequently proposed new products for new markets over 20 years, and been successful with them, and has grown in sales and profits about 15% per year, and even gets better in its forecasts.

    2) Another one has never made money, uses essays from 15-year-olds and college medical students instead of research, proposes ideas that break laws of physics, keeps proposing new products that don’t work, then after they haven’t worked, keeps bring them back again and again. Most of their presentation is devoted to complaints about 1), and demands that budget be moved, because 1) can’t predict whether they’ll grow 15.1% next year or only 14.9%, and hence are wrong and clueless.

    OK, I know which LOB to fund…

  • Hank Roberts // October 22, 2007 at 11:04 pm

    John, are you planning on funding a business for the USA, or for Europe? There’s a difference.

    http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/nooneeverwen.html

  • luminous beauty // October 23, 2007 at 1:50 am

    Cody,

    What you are providing is not skepticism, but bull-headedness. You are trying to impose a pre-conceived notion on the data (MWP temps warmer than modern temps), and when the data shows no such thing, then insist the data or the computations must be, not only out-side the bounds of calculable stochastic error, but totally wrong.

    Multiple proxy reconstructions do not show warmer MWP temps, or much of any significant variance, even if any single proxy is removed (tree rings or seashells), or if other suites of PCs are used, including those hand-picked by Steve McIntyre, or no PCs are used at all, or if other compilation methods are used.

    This suggests the data (including that of bristle-cones and seashells) is fairly robust. Not perfect, but reasonably accurate.

    The onus is on you to demonstrate that the data or methodology is flawed.

    So far, the ClimateAudit crowd has only discovered insignificant and minor errors, often re-inventing the wheel by the most circumlocutious of methods to arrive at uncertainties already acknowledged and dealt with by more direct means.

    It is more circus show than science.

  • nanny_govt_sucks // October 23, 2007 at 4:07 am

    Multiple proxy reconstructions do not show warmer MWP temps, or much of any significant variance, even if any single proxy is removed (tree rings or seashells),

    But if you remove the bristlecone pines proxy then there’s really not much of anything you can say about the relationship between medieval and modern temperatures.

    or if other suites of PCs are used, including those hand-picked by Steve McIntyre, or no PCs are used at all, or if other compilation methods are used.

    I guess you missed Steve McIntyre’s post on making Apple Pie instead of Cherry Pie:
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=581

  • Paul S // October 23, 2007 at 5:07 am

    == Gaudenz said: “Why don’t we just continue the proxy reconstructions up to 2007 and see if they show the recent warming?” ==

    Good question Gaudenz, and I don’t believe Eli gives your question a proper answer. It is possible to update at least some of the proxy records at minimal effort and minimal cost.

    An unnamed person has obtained new tree ring samples and is having the results processed now, thereby attempting to bring at least one set of records up to the current date.

    Effort was minimal ( a day trip) and costs were minimal too. So the question remains as to why climate experts have not properly updated at least some of their proxy records.

  • Carl Smith // October 23, 2007 at 5:22 am

    Eli wrote:

    “The first is that many of the proxy samples were taken years ago and only extend to the date they were taken (for example, tree rings and ice cores) so they cannot be “extended” to 2007 without taking new cores. given the large amount of effort and expenses to “bring the data base up to date” that is not practical.”

    The links below give you some idea of “the large amount of effort and expenses” Eli claims you need to undertake to update tree ring proxies:

    http://toxics.usgs.gov/photo_gallery/tree_coring.html

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/slides/slideset/18/18_361_bslide.html

    Gee, given the amount of funds spent on climate science, they must charge like a wounded bull for those apparently unwieldy and difficult to manage tree corers if it is so impractical that no one can afford “the large amount of effort and expenses” to get one to a site to update the tree-ring proxies!

    Granted, ice cores would require a bit more expense and effort, but given the huge budgets being allocated to climate science, does Eli really expect us to believe that it is impractical to update at least some of the proxies as a quality control check on how they have behaved since the calibration period?

  • Hans Erren // October 23, 2007 at 5:36 am

    “Multiple proxy reconstructions do not show warmer MWP temps, or much of any significant variance, even if any single proxy is removed (tree rings or seashells), or if other suites of PCs are used, including those hand-picked by Steve McIntyre, or no PCs are used at all, or if other compilation methods are used.

    This suggests the data (including that of bristle-cones and seashells) is fairly robust. Not perfect, but reasonably accurate.”

    Dream on…

  • John Mashey // October 23, 2007 at 5:53 am

    Hank:
    Well, ones I’ve looked at have been in UK, US, and China, and ones I’ve helped get funded are here, as were the internal projects. However, I’ve usually eschewed consumer products companies, as I’ve had difficulty predicting those. I occasionally see “SELL / NO SELL” on Jay Leno, and I never get those right.

    Recall that I was speaking of existing LOBs with visible track records, in some cases akin to choosing between James Hansen or Fred Singer proposals. This isn’t like picking between two folks just out of school, where you *know* you’re taking chances.

    Of course, I have seen otherwise sane execs back some things I thought weren’t very good.

  • cody // October 23, 2007 at 5:55 am

    Note to Steve Bloom:

    In both business and science, effective liars are found out and discredited. In the end. It just takes a long time, sometimes. In both there are outright frauds, wishful thinking, and occasional outbreaks of collective hysteria. In both, honest mistakes are also found out in the end, and these are probably more numerous.

    The conduct of both science and business reflect the society we live in. Both are capitalist enterprises. My experience (which is in both) is that in business, debates tend to be more factual, less personal, less political and much more skeptical, but its a small sample to draw on.

    Eli: I do not believe it is particularly difficult to update the proxy samples. Not compared to the amount of money and life we have at risk with the AGW hypothesis. If there is even a slight chance that they will give us more information or confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis, we should be spending the money and doing it without delay.

    Luminous: We started this debate by an assertion. I said that I didn’t see anything much different about the present warming. Tamino then offered me evidence which seemed to show a great difference. However, on examination, it showed a series of data points drawn from different samples plotted on different scales. I asked could we please see the same plots on the same scales and using the same data.

    I’m not a stubborn member of any crowd. I would just like to see those plots. Yes, and stats based on that data, too. It doesn’t seem a lot to ask when the future of the planet is at stake.

  • Gaudenz Mischol // October 23, 2007 at 6:40 am

    Eli

    I dont’ think your points are valid. With all the funding poing into climate research it should be possible to update the proxies. I think most of the necessary infrastructure like labs and computer codes are ready, it’s mainly a question to go out in the field and get the samples. And since 1980 another 27 years or proxy data have evolved. Or is it just the pesky divergence problem which hinders the researchers to do it?I stand by my statement, that this would be the real test for the proxies.

    Lbeauty

    what about the bore hole data which do show warmer MWP than today? Are they not valid proxies or is it your pre-conceived notion that modern times are warmer than MWP?

  • Dano // October 23, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    With all the funding poing into climate research it should be possible to update the proxies. I think most of the necessary infrastructure like labs and computer codes are ready, it’s mainly a question to go out in the field and get the samples.

    Folks don’t seem to understand the issue for work isn’t money limitations. It’s time limitations.

    If intrepid Amateur Auditors are so convinced of their position, then donate your time to a dendro program at a uni. Volunteer to write their grant requests for them. Then, when some people go out into the field to collect data, volunteer to RA/teach their classes for them while they’re away, or take some other work off their hands. Answer the phone and talk to students, faculty, staff, or Amateur Auditors. Or, better yet: take a camera into the mountains over Alma (not now, but in the summer, and remember ‘cotton kills’) and take pictures of trees. Nothing more, just pictures. This will discredit those warmers! Anyway,

    See, this way, volunteering your time will mean there will be more data out there to discredit the socialist warmers.

    Do it. Volunteer your time to the cause. You can be a cog in the big machine to topple the doomers. You can do it. Consider this as a call to all the practical, rational, free-thinking, Galileo-like strrrrong individuals out there to Crush the Consensus!!!

    Best,

    D

  • richard // October 23, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Cody: “If there is even a slight chance that they will give us more information or confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis, we should be spending the money and doing it without delay.”

    Are you prepared to cut a cheque, then? The climate science community and the IPCC have already amassed and analyzed large amounts of data; uncertainty has been reduced to the extent that a large majority of climate scientists are in agreement with the IPCC reports.

    Is there any reason to believe meeting your requests would increase the likelihood of action? Or resolve your concerns? I am doubtful. In any case, the costs of resolving them would be high, and likely include adding science staff as well as operating dollars.

    “My experience (which is in both) is that in business, debates tend to be more factual, less personal”

    Well, that has not been my experience. While debates in either field can be bitter and personal, science is data-driven and good data wins the day. In business, it is not nearly so straightforward. Companies with good business models and markets often fail for unrelated reasons (sometimes it is the personality of the boss).

  • EliRabett // October 23, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Time and trained people. Getting the samples, btw, is not trivial, you have to have the right equipment, know where to look (most of the stuff was sampled way before GPS), and not harm the tree, if it is still there, trees do fall in the forest. Ice cores are major expeditions because you need drilling equipment, a way of preserving the core, people who know how to take the samples, etc. boreholes, also are a specialists game, then you need the equipment and expertise to analyze what you have sampled. In short major projects not a wave of the hands nor a pocketbook issue alone.

    The thing about the borehole records is pretty well nailed by Stoat. The short of it is, that there are different sets taken by the same group and even the people who have a hard time defending the one that
    shows a very warm MWP

    BTW the post I linked to and the comments are a very good indication of how science really works.

  • MrPete // October 23, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    Eli, Dano, et al… in light of your comments, I hope you all are supportive and expectantly waiting to see the results of a small volunteer effort to update the dendro record. Yes, it has taken some time. No, it was not all that difficult.

    Isn’t it about the basics? Reasonably good data collection, eyes-open observation, open information sharing, good feedback and quality checking… hopefully some good science emerges. Nothing all that tricky, time consuming or expensive.

    Most of us may remember a grade-school experiment: here’s a candle… write down your observations…

  • Steve Bloom // October 23, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    Cody, you’re laboring under a fundamental misapprehension if you think that finding a warmer MWP would in any way detract from the AGW hypothesis (theory is more apt, BTW). Just out of curiosity, where did you get that idea?

  • luminous beauty // October 23, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    Cody,

    “However, on examination, it showed a series of data points drawn from different samples plotted on different scales. I asked could we please see the same plots on the same scales and using the same data.

    As the Moberg reconstruction ends at 1979, it is impossible to use the Moberg reconstuction for global average temperatures post 1979. Likewise, the instrumental record is robust only from the mid-19th century so it is impossible use the instrumental record for dates where there is no instrumental record. It is no great sin of reason to compare different data sets for different periods of time as long as they are measuring the same quantity, and, as tamino has so transparenty done, equalize them to the same reference period. What you are asking for is unreasonable and impossible!

    That’s not skeptical, that is delusional.

  • J Edwards // October 23, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    Procedures for taking a tree core are posted here and don’t look all that difficult:
    http://www.plantbio.ohiou.edu/dendro/field_methods.htm
    And you can even buy your own Junior Dendro F.I.E.L.D. Kit from Forestry Suppliers here:

    http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=6808

  • Mark Hadfield // October 23, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    I’m no expert in temperature reconstructions, but I’m inclined to agree with Cody that there are pitfalls in comparing the instrumental record from the last few decades with temperature reconstructions over the last millenium or two. If there *was* a warming some time in the past of, say, 0.5 C over 50 years, can we be sure that the Moberg reconstruction would have seen it? (That’s not entirely a rhetorical question. Can we?)

    Mind you, I don’t think the case for AGW relies on the recent warming being unprecedented in either magnitude or gradient. Regarding magnitude, it may or may not have been warmer in the MWP than it is now (and I think the evidence says it *probably* wasn’t) but it probably was warmer than now 8000 years ago, or during the Eemian interglacial, or during the Palaeocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, or …

  • guthrie // October 23, 2007 at 9:35 pm

    Science is a capitalist enteprise? Not exactly. I mean all those government (taxpayer) funded scientific breakthroughs didn’t just happen by capitalism. Come the revolution, scientific research will not stop.

  • cody // October 24, 2007 at 8:27 am

    Where did I get the idea that a warmer MWP would detract from the AGW theory? From my studies in the philosophy of science and the use of Occam’s razor. Its not exactly what I think by the way. I think that similar events should be hypothesized to have similar causes. That if we see two outbreaks of fungal disease that look very similar in different regions, we should make the hypothesis that the cause is the same, rather than being ready to immediately find two different causes in the two different locations. Doing this leads to finding local correlations not fundamental causes.

    Though, where I got the idea is less important than whether it is right.

    So I think it really does matter whether MWP and modern period warming are very similar. I also think the explanation, if there is one, of the cooling subsequent to MWP is rather important. Do any of you know what caused it? Could the same thing happen again and cause later cooling? Or is this out of the question?

    The request for a continuous series is not a personal one. The issue is not me asking for something which cannot be delivered. The issue is, a continuous series has an evidential force which a discontinuous one does not. There is no getting around this, This is science. Its not me being unreasonable, it is the nature of evidence and proof.

    It doesn’t say I am unreasonable. It says the evidence is not very robust. Yes, maybe there isn’t any properly robust evidence. Could be. Not a problem with me, with the evidence.

  • richard // October 24, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    “That if we see two outbreaks of fungal disease that look very similar in different regions”

    Not sure that is a very apt analogy. Fungi causing diseases of animals or plants tend to have quite specific host ranges and produce quite specific symptoms, regardless of region. It would be quite likely, then, that if we saw those symptoms in a host that we would be correct if we assumed that the cause in different regions was the same.

    Comparisons of MWP and AGW, based upon the current data, would appear to be a different case. The data suggest one was local, the other is global.

    Its your opinion that the evidence re AGW is not robust. Most climatologists do not seem to agree.

  • luminous beauty // October 24, 2007 at 3:25 pm

    “I think that similar events should be hypothesized to have similar causes.”

    As that grandaddy of skeptical philosophy, David Hume, would be quick to point out, this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, correlation does not indicate causation. It isn’t Occam’s Razor at all. It is magical thinking. In the physical sciences, causation is demonstrated by establishing an explanatory physical mechanism that follows well established physical principles, i.e., conservation of mass and energy. Similitude may suggest a relationship, but a scientific hypothesis requires a physical mechanism that can be tested. In the dismal science (or happy religion, if you will) of economics, correlation is pretty much all you have, because the underlying transactions are predicated on the fundamentally unpredictable vagaries of human decision-making.

    To say evidence is not robust because it is not from a single continuous data series is less than unreasonable, it is ridiculous. If two discontinuous and non-related, but partially over-lapping data series can be shown to be in significant agreement per a commonly derived factor, such as temperature, they are corroborating lines of evidence and the evidence is made stronger because of it.

  • Petro // October 24, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    Cody stated:
    “Where did I get the idea that a warmer MWP would detract from the AGW theory? From my studies in the philosophy of science and the use of Occam’s razor.”

    All glory to the philosophers, but the days when they carried out scientific experiments are gone hundreds years ago.

    Tamino analyzed data available and showed MWP and current are different in size and pace. You criticized quality of data. When it was told that data is best that has been achieved, you suggested that additional data should be gathered.

    Do you truly have any scientific justification for your demand or is it just that you feel that Tamino’s analysis is not correct (due to problems with data)?

    It is not scepticism, if you base your arguments on beliefs or feelings .

    btw. There is going on research on the time series all the time. If within next three years the time series you request is analyzed and the results do not differ that much from the results shown here, do you still keep your dubious stance toward dissimilarity of MWP and current time?

  • Mark Hadfield // October 25, 2007 at 4:33 am

    Hi Cody

    “Where did I get the idea that a warmer MWP would detract from the AGW theory? From my studies in the philosophy of science and the use of Occam’s razor. Its not exactly what I think by the way. I think that similar events should be hypothesized to have similar causes.”

    That’s a reasonable default position, but hardly the last word.

    The recent warming has been relatively well monitored and can be explained as a result of forcing by greenhouse gases, aerosols, etc. (I’m not saying it’s the only explanation, but it is an explanation that works.) All we can say about comparable warming events in the MWP is that we can’t rule them out, but the data don’t show any strong evidence for them. (And, of course, *if* one did occur, then it wasn’t caused by a huge anthropogenic injection of greenhouse gases.) It doesn’t give your “similar events, similar causes” guideline much to work with, does it?

  • EliRabett // October 25, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    You hike out to the ass end of nowhere, take a core (from the right tree, and bring it back. Now you have to analyze it. . . . . . .

  • tristram shandy // October 27, 2007 at 2:15 am

    Eli,

    It can’t be too difficult or expensive. As you know Steve McIntyre just updated the bristlecones. Finding the trees was a bit challenging since the scientists didnt see fit to make a simple map of where the trees were located ( a failing grade in my classes), but eventually the trees that were cored before were found since the scientists did see fit to tag the trees. Some trees had been improperly cored, for example taking a single core from an elliptical tree ( you could see the marks were the core was sealed ) but luckily the amatuer McIntyre was wise enough to take multiple cores and photo document the process, along with GPS of course. All in all a couple days work.
    Not bad for an old man. So cut the lies, it really damages the credibility of warmists

    why do you persist in this lie that it is expensive hard work

  • Hank Roberts // October 27, 2007 at 2:50 am

    Seriously, he went and drilled bristlecones? Where are the cores archived?

    Where is this documented? Pointer please?

  • dhogaza // October 27, 2007 at 2:56 am

    Finding the trees was a bit challenging since the scientists didnt see fit to make a simple map of where the trees were located ( a failing grade in my classes)

    Why a failing grade in your class?

    All you need is a proper sample, not the same trees…

    If you know the general area where the original samples were taken, you can generate your own sample, no problem.

    What’s the point, though? If the hockey stick is only accurate for the last 400 years rather than the last 1600 years, basic physics is refuted and CO2 is no longer a GHG?

  • Hank Roberts // October 27, 2007 at 3:05 am

    Found, McIntyre’s report on getting a permit and drilling
    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/browse_thread/thread/3574152a217fbdce/b330ac6c32fbfd44

    “… Prior to the trip, I obtained
    a permit from the U.S. Forest Service to take dendrochronological
    samples from bristlecones on Mount Almagre and we did more than look
    at pretty views; we obtained up-to-date bristlecone samples. I only
    went up Almagre on the first day. Our permit lasted a month and Pete
    and Leslie spent two more days on Almagre, finally locating and
    sampling tagged Graybill trees on the third day.

    Altogether (and primarily through the efforts of Pete and Leslie), our
    project collected 64 cores from 45 different trees at 5 different
    locations on Mount Almagre. 17 Graybill trees were identified, of
    which 9 were re-sampled. All the cores are currently at a
    dendrochronological laboratory….”

  • luminous beauty // October 27, 2007 at 3:07 am

    tristram,

    And McIntyre used what lab separating the rings into samples and what lab for the gas chromatography?

    Did he get all the necessary permits, or is he going to jail for vandalism?

  • jim edwards // October 27, 2007 at 3:36 am

    dhogaza:

    You sensibly asked:
    “What’s the point, though? If the hockey stick is only accurate for the last 400 years rather than the last 1600 years, basic physics is refuted and CO2 is no longer a GHG?”

    Your implicit basic scientific point is correct, but you’re forgetting the public policy implications, which are significant.

    Many taxpayers and legislators are buying into policy solutions with unlimited price tags under the assumption that present or near future warming is “unprecedented.”

    Let’s assume for purposes of argument that we somehow knew Earth was 1 degree F warmer 1000 years ago than today. Further assume that AGW from CO2 is causing 100% of current warming [more than 2x what IPCC claims for last 50 years...]. Many people might logically conclude that GW may be a significant future problem, but if we survived higher temp before we can do it in the near future again with our superior technology.

    Many people would be less inclined to support immediate fixes with unlimited price tags. They’d wait for realistic cost-benefit analyses and for better technology to price better solutions to GW more affordably. They’d accept a little more CO2 in the air in the short term in exchange for more economic growth for humanity - deferring the solution long enough to prepare the world’s poorest for the ’sting’ of the cost of giving up cheaper energy.

  • JTK // October 27, 2007 at 4:02 am

    luminous beauty:

    Separating the rings into samples???

    Gas chromatography???

    Are we talking about dendrochronology or not?

  • NeuvoLiberal // October 27, 2007 at 10:54 am

    To Steve Bloom:
    Thanks for your suggestions and recommendations, which I just have noticed and noted. I agree with you about the likelihood of another round of attacks on Gore around the time of the award ceremony. best regards -NL

  • Roger Bell // October 27, 2007 at 11:22 am

    There is a good current criticism of Hansen’s work by the Idsos at co2science.org. The major point is that Hansen is offering opinions and not science.

    [Response: I'm reminded of an old phrase, about a pot and a kettle.]

  • Geoff Sherrington // October 27, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    For some time now, several scientists including me have been trying to answer a simple question.

    Question: Where is the quantitative derivation of the assertion that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 will raise the global atmospheric temperature, by X or Y degrees - or even cool it.

    Mostly we find residuals from GCMs that have unexplained heating blithely attributed to greenhouse gases by default. We find qualitative papers on light spectroscopy that say that certain light frequencies are absorbed by certain gases, but we find no quantitative papers of relevance. We find model after model claiming that greenhouse gases (what a childish misnomer!) are the smoking gun, but we cannot find a single, peer-reviewed paper that quantitatively models CO2 concentration with atmospheric temperature, whether at surface or in a pattern in the stratosphere, in a manner seriously relevant to global warming.

    Why not join in the hunt?

    After all, this is about the bottom line for AGM.

    If you can’t find a paper, please don’t clutter the airwaves with quotes from IPCC and their references. Been there, done that. I claim that the IPCC has adduced no such paper.

    Delighted if you can show me wrong.

  • luminous beauty // October 27, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    Geoff,

    You can start here:

    Svante Arrhenius, “On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air Upon the Temperature of the Ground”, Philosophical Magazine 1896.

    And follow up on a century of additional research.

    Arrhenius made a mistake. Can you find it?

    What kind of scientist are you?

  • tristram shandy // October 27, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    the cores are being analyzed by an independent lab. The name of the lab is on CA, go RTFM.
    The data will be archived and made public. Now, this is not the ONLY updating that has been made to tree ring proxies. Other “scientists” have updated cores, the Sheep Mountain BCPs for example, and “The Polar Urals record was “updated” in 1998 (in this case the update included a large addition to the sparse medieval information in Briffa et al 1995), but the result was never published - instead Briffa switched to Yamal. Oh yes, the update had a very elevated MWP. Gaspe was updated in 1992, but never published or archived - the “signal” was said to be more evident in the 1983 version. Connie Woodhouse studied a number of treeline Engelmann spruce etc coming up to date, but didn’t get “interesting” results; her negative results were not published (but were archived). “

  • luminous beauty // October 27, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    JTK,

    No, we are not talking simple dendrochronology here. We are using tree rings as a proxy for past temperatures.

  • viento // October 27, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    The NH T trend in the GISS data set in 1976-2006 is indeed 0.030 K/year but in the HadCRU data set it is only 0.023 K /year which is 25% less.
    what is the explanation of the difference?

  • tristram shandy // October 27, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    For those too lazy to search for themselves or update proxy’s because its hard and expensive:
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2183

    the dendro lab is in Guelph.

    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2189

    some prelimary data
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2221

    problems with using strip bark BCP
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214

    A nice example of elliptical growth
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2239#more-2239

  • doug // October 27, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    “We can already see a notable difference between modern warming and the MWP: modern temperatures are hotter.” ” So the warmest modern year is 0.53 deg.C hotter than the warmest medieval year, according to Moberg.”

    How does one reconcile the tree ring proxies with marine date contradicting these statements?

    http://www.marine.usf.edu/PDFs-and-DOCs/publications/J.Ritchie-Holivar2006.pdf

    [Response: I'm really getting tired of this kind of nonsense. The poster you refer to talks about sea surface temperature in the Gulf of Mexico; it says nothing at all about global or hemispheric average surface temperature.]

  • Eli Rabett // October 27, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Actually Mc obtained samples, they are only updated when the measurements are complete, which, as you note is being done in a lab that has the right equipment, and we hope expertise

  • Hank Roberts // October 27, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Sherrington? What field?

  • Hank Roberts // October 27, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Here’s an odd pair of observations from CA:

    ——excerpt——-

    * We were horrified to discover a major “offroad” group campsite, where ancient bristlecones were harmed by…
    – makeshift latrines created by nailing boards to the trees
    – one very large tree was “topped” about 1m off the ground;
    the entire upper tree had been sawn off and used for a variety of other purposes
    * Sad news: locked gates keep people away from the top of Almagre. Also, a locked gate blocks access to the road that leads to Ruxton Park… we could only go about 100 meters past where we turned uphill when you were here.
    ——-end excerpt———

    Well, that’s why they try to keep vehicles out of the areas used for the research and why the researchers and Forest and Park Services don’t publish maps locating the trees, eh?

    CA’s now made it easy to find them for any vandal willing to walk in.

  • Glen Raphael // October 27, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    Hank, exactly what has CA done to make it easy? I must have missed that part.

    Seems mere moments ago Eli was claiming it’s soooo hard for anyone to go find these trees and sample them that it just wasn’t worth doing, yet now I hear you claiming it’s actually soooo easy to find them that if the coordinates are made available in a public database for scientists to use we’re likely to get lots of vandalism.

    Presumably done by some of those meticulous, internet-savvy, well-funded, GPS-equipped, tree-hating, science-hating vandals we hear so much about these days… :-)

  • dhogaza // October 27, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    Presumably done by some of those meticulous, internet-savvy, well-funded, GPS-equipped, tree-hating, science-hating vandals we hear so much about these days…

    You joke, but it’s a valid conc