Open Mind

Solar Cycle 24

October 13, 2007 · 205 Comments

We are near the end of solar cycle 23, and the beginning of solar cycle 24. The last century saw some of the strongest solar cycles ever observed, in accord with estimates that solar output increased slightly in the first half of the 20th century. In fact, the increase in solar output is part of the reason for the planetary warming observed in the early 20th century, but can’t explain the recent, stronger warming because, well, average solar output hasn’t really changed in 50 years or so.


The most obvious sign of the solar cycle is the sunspot cycle, and the most common sunspot index is the Zurich sunspot number, also known as the Wolf number. This is actually a composite of sunspot count and sunspot group count (a method devised by Rudolph Wolf in 1848); the sunspot number is ten times the number of groups, plus the number of spots. Here’s a graph of monthly average Zurich sunspot number from 1750 to the present:

spots.JPG

The 11-year cycle is obvious. It’s also evident that each cycle has a different peak height, and even a different duration. Many investigators have sought precursors, or “early warning” signals, which can foretell when the next cycle will begin and how strong it will be. Many relationships have been looked for, and many possibilities have been raised, but most of the potential relationships have not been established with statistical significance. This doesn’t mean they’re not correct; it simply means we haven’t yet found out with sufficient precision to have confidence in them. Mainly this is because of a paucity of available data; only 22 full cycles have been observed with sufficient precision to determine their parameters accurately enough for study.

An accurate prediction of the solar cycle would be very valuable. But I know from long experience just how difficult such a prediction is. Solar cycles don’t follow simple patterns; although the solar cycle is dominated by a roughly 11-year period, the timing and strength of each individual cycle is different. Furthermore, no one has yet identified a reliable pattern to those cycle-to-cycle variations.

Of course that doesn’t stop people from trying. In fact lots of people have tried, and NASA has a committee for the prediction of solar cycle 24 (the Marshall Space Flight Center has a solar cycle prediction page). In April, the prediction committee issued a press release indicating that expert opinion was split between predictions of a weaker-than-usual and stronger-than-usual upcoming cycle.

One of the activities of this committee has been to collect together predictions from the scientific literature, as well as predictions specifically solicited by NASA, to get an idea of the range of estimate from various researchers. These are collected together in a table of predictions available from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center (in Greenbelt, MD, not to be confused with the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City).

The only relationship I’m aware of which can be established with statistical significance is that a longer solar cycle tends to be followed by a weaker one, while a shorter cycle tend to be followed by a stronger one:

correl.JPG

Other possible factors include the rise time from minimum to maximum, the fall time from maximum to minimum, the asymmetry of the cycle, and measures of magnetic activity, but as yet these have not been established.

The next cycle is later than expected; current estimates are that it may start as late as March of 2008. But this is not later than average, a March ‘08 beginning will mean that cycle 23 lasted 11 years, just about average. The collected predictions of the strength of the upcoming cycle span a range from very strong to very weak. The average cycle strength at maximum is an index of 115, and predictions cluster about that average value (click the graph for a clearer view):

preds.JPG

Based on available information, NASA scientists have put together the following prediction for cycle 24:

predict1.JPG

I’ll emphasize again that nobody really knows whether the next cycle will be stronger or weaker than average. We simply don’t yet have the ability to predict the characteristics of upcoming solar cycles.

In spite of this, some global warming denialists insist that not only will the next cycle be a weak one, we’re actually headed for another “Maunder-like” minimum. The Maunder minimum was a period of reduced solar activity from about 1645 to 1715. During this period almost no sunspots were seen, and it’s estimated that total solar irradiance (the total energy output of the sun) was also less than average. This, some say, will lead to cooling of the climate, and make a liar out of global warming activists.

To me, this argument makes absolutely no sense. For one thing, climate scientists — the ones who claim that greenhouse gases are the cause of global warming — have never denied that solar variations influence climate. For another thing, even if we do see another Maunder-like minimum (which I doubt), that won’t change the fact that greenhouse gases also influence climate, and we’re well along the pathway to altering it rapidly and with serious consequences; a temporary respite due to reduced solar activity won’t change the infrared absorption properties of CO2 and other atmospheric gases. Then there’s the fact that even the diminished solar output of the Maunder minimum had only a slight influence on climate, according to paleoclimate reconstructions. Here are two of the most prominent estimates of northern hemisphere temperature from 1500 to 1900 (Moberg et al. 2005 and Mann & Jones 2003):

maunder.JPG

It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.

In the history of serious sunspot observations (basically since the invention of the telescope), we’ve only observed one Maunder-like minimum, and only 22 full solar cycles have been accurately delineated. Those who claim we have enough understanding to say with confidence that we’re about to enter a new Maunder minimum, are fooling themselves. Don’t let ‘em fool you.

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

One reader is convinced that solar activity is headed for another Maunder-like minimum, which will cause global temperature to decline significantly. He also seems to think that Dr. Svalgaard’s prediction for solar cycle 24 is more reliable than others’. So I tracked down Dr. Svalgaard’s published work containing the prediction: Svalgaard et al. 2005, Geophysical Research Letters, 32, L01104. What, you wonder, is the prediction for the upcoming solar cycle?

Using direct polar field measurements, now available for four solar cycles, we predict that the approaching solar cycle 24 (2011 maximum) will have a peak smoothed monthly sunspot number of 75 ± 8, making it potentially the smallest cycle in the last 100 years.

If this turns out to be correct (and that’s a big “if”), then it’ll be the weakest solar cycle since cycle 14 (peaking in 1901 at an index of 64.2). But it’s nowhere near another “Maunder-like minimum.” Dr. Svalgaard’s prediction doesn’t support the idea, it contradicts it.

Regarding the ability to predict solar cycles in general, the first paragraph of the introduction to the paper states:

At present, our limited understanding of the solar cycle does not allow predictions of future solar activity from theory.

This belies confidence in predictions of upcoming solar cycles.

Categories: Global Warming · climate change

205 responses so far ↓

  • windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:29 am

    at last you address my concerns, gracias Tamino!

    you are correct in saying the NASA panel is split on cycle 24, but note that Dr Svalsgard is the panel member with the best record in prediction, and he predicts 24 will be the lowest in 100 years. A majority of astrophysicists predict cycle 25 will be a major minimum. If we see 2 cycles at major minimums then we have the opportunity to measure solar irradiance vs CO2 forcings on our climate. This is good.

    TSI is one measure of solar output, some say it has declined in the last 50 years (Lockwood & PMOD) and others (Wilson) say it has increased (using ACRIM minimums) Regardless of what you believe about TSI measurements, it is undisputible that solar magnetics doubled during the last century, and now have slowed to the lowest level in recorded history. Cosmic ray theory as connected to solar magnetics and cloud formation may be a fantasy, or it could be a reality with huge implications for planetary albedo, which can double global rejection of heat.

    We are possibly headed for a double whammy on the CO2 based GHG thesis of AGW. I look forward to the results.

  • windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:51 am

    It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.

    I’m sorry but that is not correct.

    During the Little Ice Age, access to Greenland was largely cut off by ice from 1410 to the 1720s. At the same time, canals in Holland routinely froze solid, glaciers advanced in the Alps, and sea-ice increased so much that no open water was present in any direction around Iceland in 1695.

    Between the mid-1600s and the early 1700s the Earth’s surface temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere appear to have been at or near their lowest values of the last millennium. European winter temperatures over that time period were reduced by 1.8 to 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit (1-1.5 Celsius). This cool down is evident through derived temperature readings from tree rings and ice cores, and in historical temperature records, as gathered by the University of Massachusetts-Amherst and the University of Virginia.

  • windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:52 am

    the above from NASA

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2001/200112065794.html

  • windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:54 am

    The paper, “Solar forcing of regional climate change during the Maunder Minimum,” by authors Drew Shindell, Gavin Schmidt, and David Rind, from NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies and co-authors Michael Mann and Anne Waple, from the Universities of Virginia and Massachusetts respectively, appears in the December 7 issue of Science.

  • tamino // October 14, 2007 at 3:09 am

    windansea: instead of flooding the board with four comments in rapid succession, how about collecting your thoughts into a single coherent comment?

    NASA’s solar cycle prediction committee has surveyed the literature *and* solicited opinions, and notes that expert opinion is about evenly divided between higher-than-average and lower-than-average. But you seem convinced beyond doubt that solar activity is about to take a nose-dive. Your belief that we actually know enough to predict with confidence is delusional.

    You link to a NASA news release from 2001 to suggest that the Maunder minimum had a large impact on climate, while I show graphs of two of the leading paleoclimate reconstructions (both more current) which contradict that. To all readers, ask yourself this: if I hadn’t told you when the Muander minimum occurred or marked it on the graph, would you have been able to tell from the temperature plots?

    And you still seem to think that *if* there’s a big drop in solar activity it will somehow contradict the impact of greenhouse gases — be a “double whammy on the CO2 based GHG thesis of AGW.” I repeat, solar influence does not negate the climate-forcing action of greenhouse gases.

    It’s very revealing that legitimate climate scientists do *not* deny a solar influence, but many “solar advocates” seem to think that establishing a solar influence (which by the way has *already* been established) will somehow negate the influence of greenhouse gases. And to quote the last line from the very NASA newrelease you link to (a quote from Dr. Shindell no less):

    However, we need to keep in mind that variations in solar output have had far less impact on the Earth’s recent climate than human actions.

  • windansea // October 14, 2007 at 4:12 am

    Your belief that we actually know enough to predict with confidence is delusional

    nope, just based on track records of the astrophysicists on the panel Dr Svalsgard is the best, I’ll readily admit that solar science is at kindergarden level, just like climate science, but the more 24 delays the higher my confidence level.

    while I show graphs of two of the leading paleoclimate reconstructions (both more current) which contradict that.

    graphs are nice but the annecdotal evidence for Maunder cooling is overwhelming.

    even if we do see another Maunder-like minimum (which I doubt)

    why would you doubt it? solar cycles are cyclical and repeat, this is proven

    will somehow negate the influence of greenhouse gases.

    I’ve never said this, the GHG effect is evident but so far unquantifiable, IMHO overestimated.

  • luminous beauty // October 14, 2007 at 4:12 am

    windy does have a tendency to read only the parts of a paper that support his thesis:

    Shindell noted that the effects of this period of a dimmer Sun were concentrated more regionally than globally. “Global average temperature changes are small, approximately .5 to .7 degrees Fahrenheit (0.3-0.4C), but regional temperature changes are quite large.”

  • cce // October 14, 2007 at 6:01 am

    To review: he selectively quoted a paper co-authored by Mann, while simultaneously ignoring Mann’s temperature reconstruction (the most recent version of the “Hockey Stick”) in deference to “anecdotal” evidence from regions as diverse as Europe and Greenland.

  • george // October 14, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Predicting that the next solar cycle is going to be the next “Maunder minimum” strikes me as more like astrology than like science.

    It’s one thing to attempt to predict the rough size of the next cycle relative to the size of the last few cycles (ie, “a longer solar cycle tends to be followed by a weaker one, while a shorter cycle tend to be followed by a stronger one”), but to predict the magnitude of the next cycle relative to the magnitude of cycles that occurred over 300 years ago (when the understanding of what caused the maunder min is poor if not non-existent) strikes me as little better than predicting a person’s future based on the day on which they were born.

    Also, maybe it is just my imagination, but it seems to me that the “solar argument against the reality and/or seriousness of global warming” has recently “flipped” from the “solar output is increasing” (ie, the sun is largely responsible for recent warming) to “we’re headed into another Maunder minimum”.

  • tamino // October 15, 2007 at 12:44 am

    I tracked down Svalgaard’s prediction for the upcoming solar cycle; it’s summarized in the update to this post.

  • luminous beauty // October 15, 2007 at 1:02 am

    Shorter windy,

    Don’t do anything about global warming, ’cause the transient effects on climate of magnetic solar storms is too small to be detected, and if, maybe, the remote possibility of an uncertain future dramatic decrease of magnetic storms would provide a scalar against which the, so far, undetectable influence of magnetic storms can be compared to the greenhouse effect, then the strong, detectable signal from the greenhouse effect, may be proportionately reduced by some insignificant amount and everything will be just hunky-dory.

    O happy day!

  • richard // October 15, 2007 at 2:48 am

    Actually, the last minimum was May 1996 (with a smoothed International Sunspot Number of 8.0). So if the next minimum occurs in March 2008, this cycle will have lasted 11.83 years, putting it above average duration (above 70th percentile from the looks of your chart).

    Also, the Maunderesque minimum talk is not just about Solar Cycle 24 (about which there is a divergence of opinions) but is also about Solar Cycle 25. It seems that there is a greater consensus that the cycle after next will be quite low. If both are lower than we’ve seen in 100 years, you are at least looking at a Dalton-type event, if not a Maunder one.

    [Response: My mistake, I misread the table of minimum times. A cycle length of 11.83 years would make this the 7th-longest out of 23 tabulated cycles.

    I'm skeptical (as are most experts in the field) of our ability to predict the strength of the next solar cycle; I'm even *more* skeptical of our ability to predict the strength of the cycle after that.]

  • Chris C // October 15, 2007 at 7:13 am

    Ah Tamino, you are bringing back fond memories of my time as an undergraduate working on flare/prominence/CME prediction. I had to sit back and watch as our complex dynamical predictions (at one point running on 50 simultaneous CPUs) were blown away by predictions made using Bayesian regression. This made me realise (for the first time) just how infantile our understanding of solar dynamics are.

    It also made me realise just how infantile the ideas of those who make blanket claims about the strength of future solar cycles are. At present, we simply do not have the ability to make predictions about the strength or length of future solar cycles with any confidence.

    I would also caution those who point to the little ice age as evidence that the Earth is going to plunge into a cool period as a result of a sunspot minima. The cause of the little ice age is not yet completely understood. According to Houghton et al. (1996) the increase in solar luminosity since the maunder minimum is 0.4 plus or minus 0.2 %, which is insufficient to account for the level of cooling observed in the northern hemisphere during the LIA.

    However, the LIA also corresponded to a time of increased volcanic activity (such as Tambora in 1815) and a period of North Atlantic Oscillation anomalies, which may account for the cold period observed in Europe and the fact that the LIA affected different parts of the world quite differently (particularly in the Southern Hemisphere).

    Everybody agrees that the sun influences climate. This does not change the fact that increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere will also change the climate. There is a problem with the denialists logic (surprise, surprise).

  • John Finn // October 15, 2007 at 10:15 am

    “It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.”

    You’re relying on proxies for this conclusion. If you use ACTUAL temperature readings it is apparent that the temperature did rise/ fall quite spectacularly during/ after the Maunder Minimum.

    [Response: Actual temperature measurments for the period 1645 to 1715? They cover such an extremely limited area that they don't permit any conclusions about global or even hemispheric temperature for that time period. That's *why* we use proxies to study temperature for that time period. Fortunately, this time is recent enough that we have a greater supply and greater variety of proxies to work with. If you recall the study by the review panel of the National Academy of Sciences on the state of the science of paleoclimate reconstructions, they didn't just say that such reconstructions are plausible for the last 2,000 years, they expressed *high confidence* in reconstructions for the last 400 years.]

  • george // October 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    I’d have to say that NASA’s prediction for cycle 23 was not all that good.

    The actual number of sunspots at maximum (120) was below the number at the low end of the range (130) and well (25%) below the “estimated” value (160).

    For what’s worth (maybe nothing) sunspot numbers for cycles 21 and 22 were right around 160.

    But what the NASA panel actually predicted about cycle 24 was not even close to “it will be another maunder min” (and the low number does not even deviate much from the average, certainly nowhere near the “lowest in 100 years” range)

    Here’s what the panel actually said:

    “What follows is the consensus of the panel

    Solar Minimum
    March, 2008 (±6 months)
    Marks the end of Cycle 23 and start of Cycle 24
    The length of Cycle 23 will then be 11.75 years
    Longer than the average of 11 years [but not by much]

    Cycle 24 Maximum
    Will peak at a sunspot number of 140(±20) in October, 2011
    Or
    Will peak at a sunspot number of 90(±10) in August, 2012
    An average solar cycle peaks at 114
    The next cycle will be neither extreme, nor average [bold added by me]

    But, the panel is split down the middle on whether it will be bigger than average or smaller than average”

    [end panel quote]

    So, take your pick — or flip a coin: Heads it’s bigger. tails its smaller.

  • Boris // October 15, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    “If we see 2 cycles at major minimums then we have the opportunity to measure solar irradiance vs CO2 forcings on our climate.”

    Why does solar have to be decreasing for us to compare the two forcings? This males no sense at all.

  • windansea // October 15, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    But what the NASA panel actually predicted about cycle 24 was not even close to “it will be another maunder min”

    never said that, just that Svalgaard (who has best track record) predicts the lowest cycle in 100 years. Cycle 25 is being predicted as possible the lowest in centuries, a Dalton or Maunder type minimum.

    “The slowdown we see now means that Solar Cycle 25, peaking around the year 2022, could be one of the weakest in centuries,” says Hathaway

    Shindell noted that the effects of this period of a dimmer Sun were concentrated more regionally than globally. “Global average temperature changes are small, approximately .5 to .7 degrees Fahrenheit (0.3-0.4C), but regional temperature changes are quite large.”

    here is Shindell’s anomally map, judge for yourself if the cooling was “just regional”

    http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/shindell_06/fig3.gif

    It also made me realise just how infantile the ideas of those who make blanket claims about the strength of future solar cycles are.

    no one is making blanket claims, just posting some predictions made by some NASA astrophysicists. It’s kind of funny to see typical “denialist” statements in this thread. “solar science is unsettled” “they don’t have a clue” etc etc

    Take a look at this graph, solar TSI and magnetics have increased quite a bit in the last few centuries, if the sun shuts down as some predict then we will have a better understanding of relative climate forcings.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Solar_Activity_Proxies.png

    Santiago Chile just had it’s coldest winter since the LIA (1885) Australia also had a record cold June. Just weather? Or beginnings of a solar induced climate shift.

    http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Frigid_Southern_Hemisphere_Winter.pdf

  • george // October 15, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    windansea claimed: “Svalgaard (who has best track record) predicts the lowest cycle in 100 years.”

    You keep saying that, but what exactly is his “track record”?

    for all I know, he may have just got a single prediction within 20% and that might be the “best” prediction of anyone to date (and that might just have been luck)

    In addition to the specifics of his future cycle prediction record, what I want to know is this: How well does his theory reproduce past cycles based on the previous cycles?

    I’d say that is just as important if no more important than a couple right answers on future cycles.

    If he is as good with his predictions as you seem to imply, why does NASA even bother having anyone else on the solar cycle prediction panel?

    Svalgard was not on the cycle 23 prediction panel, so it’s no wonder they got it wrong ( though I notice the other scientist you mentioned — Hathaway — was on that panel)

    By the way, do incorrect predictions count against a person?

    Or are we only counting “correct” predictions (as psychics do)?

    And just how close does one have to be with one’s prediction to be considered correct? (within 50%? 20%, 10%)

  • Steve Bloom // October 15, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    IIRC the NAS panel’s high confidence in climate trends for the last 400 years was to a great extent based on this 2005 Science paper by Oerlemans. These glacier records don’t go back very far, but for the period covered they’re very robust. While one can certainly speculate about fluctuations within the error bars, the central trend shows no significant trace of the Maunder Minimum.

  • windansea // October 15, 2007 at 8:59 pm

    You keep saying that, but what exactly is his “track record”?

    actually I should say Dr Svalgard uses the method with the best record in prediction, called the precursor method. But I don’t know the actual numbers of success. He comments at http://www.solarcycle24.com regularly. He will tell you prediction is very tricky but he seems pretty confident at this point. Ask him a question.

    Confidence in a low 24 is rising because 24 is late, NASA actually had to lower their consensus (which means nil as it averages about 28 separate predictions) Basically there was a high group and a low group. Thing is, grand minima are cyclical and we are due for some lows. And as Hathaway observed, “Normally, the conveyor belt moves about 1 meter per second—walking pace,” says Hathaway. “That’s how it has been since the late 19th century.” In recent years, however, the belt has decelerated to 0.75 m/s in the north and 0.35 m/s in the south. “We’ve never seen speeds so low.”

    http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/images/image022.jpg

    [Response: What's the evidence the "grand minima are cyclical"?]

  • windansea // October 15, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    the central trend shows no significant trace of the Maunder Minimum.

    LOL “we have to get rid of the Maunder’

    Evidence from tree rings and other temperature proxies suggests that during the previous 500 years global temperatures were 1.0ºC cooler than those of the 20th century during a period roughly from 1300 to 1870 – known as the Little Ice Age. While overall temperatures during the Little Ice Age were cooler than now, there was much year-to-year variability and some warm periods. The coldest part of the Little Ice Age, from 1645 to 1715, was also a time of minimum sun spots, referred to as the Maunder minimum. Although there is a correspondence in time, the causal connection between sun variability and Earth climate is a subject of ongoing debate. It is clear, however, that the 20th century was recovering from the average colder temperatures of the 19th century and earlier.

    http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/temperatures-over-previous-centuries-from-various-proxy-records

    [Response: Of course temperatures back then were about a degree cooler than *today*, but not because they were a full degree cooler than usual -- rather it's because "today" is almost a full deg.C *warmer* than usual. Did you *really* not figure this out?]

  • windansea // October 15, 2007 at 9:34 pm

    [Response: What’s the evidence the “grand minima are cyclical”?]

    The Gleissberg (87 years) and DeVries (210 years) cycles are fairly well documented, here is a paper that talks about them as well as a possible 1470 year cycle.

    http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Nature/Braun_etal_Nature_2005.pdf

  • george // October 15, 2007 at 11:02 pm

    windansea said: “actually I should say Dr Svalgard uses the method with the best record in prediction, called the precursor method. But I don’t know the actual numbers of success. He will tell you prediction is very tricky but he seems pretty confident at this point. ‘

    Tricky indeed.

    I don’t know about Svalgard’s specific prediction for cycle 23 in particular, but apparently precursor methods (plural) in general missed the mark on cycle 23 by a wide margin.

    “Typical geomagnetic precursor methods predicted Cycle 23 to be a rather
    high cycle with a maximum amplitude higher than that of Cycle 22 [~ 160] and much higher than the
    observed maximum amplitude of Cycle 23, 120.8 (e.g. Peng et al. 1997; Thompson 1997; Lantos
    & Richard 1998; SEC 2001

    ).

  • cody // October 16, 2007 at 7:25 am

    Look, there is little point arguing about what the solar cycle will be or what its effects will be. It is, at best, very uncertain.

    Surely the point is to be very thankful that a critical natural experiment may be performed. If the solar fraternity are correct, we will see (if the solar cycle works out as they think) a fall in temperatures, and so AGW will be blown sky high. This will be great, not because of any feelings we have about AGW, but because at last things will be settled.

    On the other hand, if the solar cycle works out the way the solarians expect, and temps continue to rise, then we know that AGW is much more probable. This too will be great, as it will be one less thing to worry about. Failure to falsify is not as decisive on the upside as falsification is on the downside, but ruling out one of the main competing explanations will be a great step forward.

    So, we must all hope that the next cycle is really, really low. If it is, it will give us some real information at last. And lets all agree that this is going to be, if it works out, a critical test.

  • henry // October 16, 2007 at 11:32 am

    [Response: Of course temperatures back then were about a degree cooler than *today*, but not because they were a full degree cooler than usual — rather it’s because “today” is almost a full deg.C *warmer* than usual. Did you *really* not figure this out?]

    Beautiful logic.

    Try this reading of it, to see if it makes any more sense:

    ” Of course temperatures *today* are about a degree warmer than *back then*, but not because they are a full degree warmer than usual — rather it’s because “back then” was almost a full deg.C *colder* than usual.”

    Did you *really* not see this from both ends?

  • John Finn // October 16, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    Re: Tamino’s response to my Maunder Minimum post

    There are, I believe, 9 long term (200+ years) temperature records in existence. These include Armagh, De Bilt, a Swedish one and one from the Eastern US (I think) amongst others. All these records show pretty good agreement with each other. That is, the timing and amplitude of their peaks and troughs is similar. Furthermore they also show close agreement with the more recent NH records. Funnily enough - NONE of them has a discernible hockey-stick shape.

    The longest of these records is the Central England Temperature (CET) record which extends back to 1659. This means that the record began during the Maunder Minimum (1645-1715) – the nadir if the Little Ice Age. So what does the CET record tells us.

    Between the 1660s and 1690s, annual average temperatures fell, from an already historically low point, by ~1 deg C. Average temperature for the 1660s decade was 9.1 deg C; for the 1690s it was 8.1 deg. The 1660-1699 trend is ~ -1.1 deg C.

    Following the 1690s, temperatures began to rise again. The 1730s were almost 2 deg C WARMER than the 1690s. The average annual temperature for the 1730s was 9.9 deg C. The contrast between the 2 decades (1690s v 1730s) is stark. EVERY year in the 1690s had an average temperature BELOW 9 deg C (min 7.27 deg) whereas EVERY year in the 1730s had an average temperature ABOVE 9 deg C (max 10.47).

    To put this into perspective the 1940s had an average temperature of 9.7 deg C compared to the “globally warmed” 1990s which was 0.4 deg warmer at 10.1 deg C. Note the GISS NH record shows an almost identical (0.38 deg C) difference between the 1940s and 1990s.

    There has been a concerted attempt to write the LIA and more particularly the MWP out of history. Fortunately extensive literature exists to show both phenomena were real and widespread.

    [Response: Gee -- I though we were talking about *global* warming. Are you seriously going to re-write the temperature history of the world based on ONE record?

    And you haven't even done that right. I discussed CET (central England temperature) in my very first blog post; readers should have a look for themselves.

    You also fail to mention that the natural variation in temperatures from a SINGLE location is far greater than the natural variation in GLOBAL average temperature. You further fail to mention that the earliest part of the CET record is so much less precise than the later part that before 1722, monthly average CET is only computed to the nearest half a deg.C (except for a very brief span from 1699 to 1706), in fact for much of this time period it's only computed to the nearest full degree! Compare this to the record since late 1722, for which it's computed to the nearest 0.1 deg.C -- five to ten times more precise. Your thesis is really founded on the temperature behavior from a SINGLE LOCATION, for a SINGLE DECADE, from the MOST IMPRECISE part of the record.

    The real "concerted effort" has been to exaggerate the MWP and LIA beyond all proportion, based on scanty data and failure to apply proper statistical tests. Nice job.]

  • John Finn // October 16, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    On solar cycle prediction, Tamino says

    “We simply don’t yet have the ability to predict the characteristics of upcoming solar cycles. “

    Certainly if you’ve been following NASA pronouncements over the past 18 months or so you might get the impression that no-one has a clue what might happen regarding future solar activity. NASA’s most recent release in April 2007 has actually given us 2 predictions (one high, one low) for Solar Cycle 24. However, there are scientists who seem to have developed more consistent methods for prediction.

    For a time I viewed the late Theodor Landscheidt as a sort of mild eccentric, but I’ m becoming increasingly curious (if not yet convinced) by his theories on solar cycles and their effect on climate. I’m sure others have done similar work, but Landscheidt is the only one I know who brings it all together in an easily readable form. In a nutshell, TL seems to have developed precise caclulations which accurately predict the behaviour of the Sun for centuries into the future. Here’s the gist of his paper.

    As well as spinning on it’s axis, the Sun also oscillates about the Solar System’s Centre of Mass (SSCM). Depending on it’s position relative to the SSCM, the Sun’s orbital
    angular momentum either increases or decreases. The variation can be as much as 25% of the total momentum. Maxima and minima associated with these variations coincide with the Gleissberg cycles, i.e.cycles of extrema of eruption (geomagnetic) activity. Note Gleissberg max/min are not the same as sunspot max/min but cycles with high sunspot activity will generally also have high eruption activity. Gleissberg cycles average ~166 years in length with half-cycles of ~83 years (though they can range between 40 and 120 years). Gleissberg Maxima coincide with warmer periods – Gleissberg minima with cooler periods

    “Ah” you might say. “This is all very well but even if we accept that we are experiencing the effects of a Glessiberg maximum now, the climate is much warmer than at any time during the last several hundred years so there must be something else going on”

    This is true. But there is another factor which comes into play. That is, the alternating max/min cycles periodically undergo a phase change whereby back to back maxima occur without an intervening minimum. According to TL’s calculations, such a phase change occurred in 1976. This resulted in a Gleissberg maximum in 1984 which immediately following the maximum in 1952 producing a ‘climate optimum’ in the late 20th century.

    Has this happened before? According to TL – yes it has. The previous occasion was in 1120 when the Gleissberg max in 1100 was immediately followed by another in 1130. Coincidentally (or not) a time when some people think there was a “Medieval Warm Period”

  • Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    Tamino, is windy really contributing anything? I suspect if you got him his own website and sent him there, science discussion would return to this site.

    [Response: My favorite quote from when I was a wee lad learning American history is: "I will not defend what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."]

  • Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 2:45 pm

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17460

    “… energy from the Sun decreased only slightly, why did temperatures drop so severely in the Northern Hemisphere? Climate scientist Drew Shindell and colleagues at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies tackled that question ….”
    Map adapted from Shindell et al., 2001

    “the reduced brightness of the Sun during the Maunder Minimum causes global average surface temperature changes of only a few tenths of a degree, in line with the small change in solar output. However, regional cooling over Europe and North America is 5-10 times larger due to a shift in atmospheric winds.”

    http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/shindell_06/

  • Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    > your right to say it

    Well, yeah, no question. Your forum, you decide.

    Your site has felt closer to ‘forum discussion’ than ‘chatroom soapbox public square’ or heckling theatre, that’s what has me regretting what seems like more and more whack-a-mole conversations that seem to run from any focus.

    Prometheus died months before RPJr shut the doors, because he let it fill up with the claptrap and denial and the science readers quit posting, seemed to me.

    But you decide what to approve, and so long as you approve postings I’ll consider they merit serious replies.

  • windansea // October 16, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    Gee — I though we were talking about *global* warming. Are you seriously going to re-write the temperature history of the world based on ONE record?

    funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.

    There are proxies from all over the globe showing MWP temps equal to or above the CWP. Cuffey’s Greenland reconstruction/Dahl-Jensen’s Greenland boreholes; Naurzbaev in Siberia, Millar et al in California, Law Dome dO18 isotopes in Antarctica, Pollissar on glaciers in the Venezuelan Alps, higher treelines in Scandinavia, Lamb’s European evidence; the Polar Urals update etc etc.

  • cody // October 16, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    Surely windandsea is correct in his assessment of the importance of the MWP and LIA? Just the logic of the thing tells you that if you are trying to explain an event that has never occurred before, you can reasonably look for a cause which has never occurred before.

    If on the other hand the present warming and cooling has occurred on the same scale before, then we should be looking for something that occurred on both occasions as the cause of both.

    Of course, it is logically possible that something other than AGW caused the MWP, and something other than CO2 falls caused the LIA. And that it is AGW and CO2 that is causing the very similar post 1980 warming, and that cutting back on atmospheric levels of CO2 will fix it, though neither operated earlier.

    But it is rather unlikely if the two warmings and coolings are of the same general size and nature. It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one outbreak of cholera was due to contaminated water, but another particular one was due to miasma. If they were both recognizably cholera, then surely the starting point is the same cause?

    So it is really rather important to establish beyond doubt whether or not the MWP happened, and whether it was comparable to our present warming - however warm that may turn out to be…

    Another way of putting it would be: MWP may establish the natural variability of the global climate. I have not come across in the various AGW studies any estimates of what natural variability is. Does anyone have references to such a thing? That is, over a period of (say) 2,000 years, how much variation in average temperature would strike us as normal and unalarming? What is the normal range?

    [Response: Using cholera as an example is a poor analogy, it's not a symptom but is itself a cause. Try fever instead: "It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one fever was due to influenza, but another particular one was due to measles." If it were my child with a fever, I'd reject any physician who shouted "flu" at every fever patient.

    And windansea is *not* right about the MWP and LIA. They're just not as severe as he wants you to believe.]

  • Mario // October 16, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    >So, we must all hope that the next cycle is really, really low.
    >If it is, it will give us some real information at last.
    >And lets all agree that this is going to be, if it works out, a critical test.

    Admirable post, right to the point:
    in a time in which “scientific” certainties seem to some far less solidly established than other like to assume them to be,
    it woud be a true goodly gift, if instead of words and models, we could get a kind of “crucial experiment” between the two main competing candidate theories.

    If really next solar cycle will be very weak, perhaps we will end it with some surprises, but almost surely with a more solid understanding and fewer doubts.

  • henry // October 16, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    “[Response: Using cholera as an example is a poor analogy, it’s not a symptom but is itself a cause. Try fever instead: “It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one fever was due to influenza, but another particular one was due to measles.” If it were my child with a fever, I’d reject any physician who shouted “flu” at every fever patient.”

    And yet there are those who use the anology that “the earth has a fever”, and shout “increased CO2″ at every change in weather.

  • windansea // October 16, 2007 at 9:19 pm

    And windansea is *not* right about the MWP and LIA. They’re just not as severe as he wants you to believe.

    It’s not my belief, just the fact that there are scores of published studies by scientists in many disciplines which show temps equally extreme to the modern era. What’s next, will the AGW crowd start denying ice ages and hothouse periods? Why would there not be less severe ups and downs like the LIA and MWP?

  • richard // October 16, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    “..just the fact that there are scores of published studies.. ”

    There are not, however, ’scores’ of studies supporting your hypothesis that solar cycles can explain global warming of the past 3-4 decades. There are, by contrast, many peer-reviewed studies showing that man-made GHG are correlated with global temps and that GHG emissions are the best explanation for those temps.

    Despite your denials, you have your beliefs and not much else.

  • luminous beauty // October 17, 2007 at 1:08 am

    “funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.”

    Dumber and dumber. MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up. It is just the degree of certainty from 600years BCE that is modified from very likely to plausible.

    Let’s see. We can’t be sure of AGW because solar variation might be an alternate explanation, even though there is no significant correlation between solar variation and the temperature record of the last 30 years (a significant falsification. Correlation does not prove causation, but lack of correlation does disprove causation.) Nonetheless, just to convince the denialists, we should wait another 22 years just to see if some 50/50 chance of a reduction in solar radiation does produce some correlation.

    But wait. We can postulate some arbitrary lag time of 30-40 years which is good for constant forcing but not transient forcing, just to satisfy the denialists. So we are looking at making hard and fast conclusion some 60 years in the future, just to appease the denialists, even though they are demonstrably wrong on just about everything.

    The rope-a-dope strategy.

  • luminous beauty // October 17, 2007 at 1:51 am

    I meant BPE, not BCE.

  • windansea // October 17, 2007 at 2:20 am

    Dumber and dumber. MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up. It is just the degree of certainty from 600years BCE that is modified from very likely to plausible.

    naughty little Luminous

    http://www.climatechangeissues.com/files/PDF/conf05mckitrick.pdf

  • Hank Roberts // October 17, 2007 at 3:32 am

    http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg18925431.400/mg18925431.400-2_752.jpg

    http://www.umich.edu/~umfandsf/other/ebooks/Grimm/001.txt

  • cce // October 17, 2007 at 3:42 am

    From AR4, Chapter 6, page 466

    “McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) reported that they were unable to replicate the results of Mann et al. (1998). Wahl and Ammann (2007) showed that this was a consequence of differences in the way McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) had implemented the method of Mann et al. (1998) and that the original reconstruction could be closely duplicated using the original proxy data. McIntyre and McKitrick (2005a,b) raised further concerns about the details of the Mann et al. (1998) method, principally relating to the independent verification of the reconstruction against 19th-century instrumental temperature data and to the extraction of the dominant modes of variability present in a network of western North American tree ring chronologies, using Principal Components Analysis. The latter may have some theoretical foundation, but Wahl and Amman (2006) also show that the impact on the amplitude of the final reconstruction is very small (~0.05°C; for further discussion of these issues see also Huybers, 2005; McIntyre and McKitrick, 2005c,d; von Storch and Zorita, 2005).”

  • ChrisC // October 17, 2007 at 8:23 am

    A few points:

    1. (For Cody). Solar cycle peaks or troughs do not have any effect, either way, on AGW. I’ll make an attempt to spell this out logically:

    - Consider a system, X, that is affected by a whole bunch (N) of different factors. Call these factors Yi where i = 1, 2, … N ;

    - Thus, by experimenting and doing lots of hard work, we can determine how much factor Yi affects X. For example, if I double Y1, then I reduce some property of X by a half or something like that.

    - Suppose that Y1 changes naturally. We know this will effect X, but it does not stop X being effected by Y2, Y3 … and YN.

    So claiming that “AGW will be blown sky high” with any changing in solar cycle length is neither logically nor scientifically valid. If X is the global climate system, Y1 is solar output and Y2 is greenhouse gas concentrations, then changing solar output will affect the climate, but in no way implies the fact that changing greenhouse gas concentrations will not continue to affect climate.

    2 (Windy).

    Please do not talk about southern hemisphere climatology (in particular Australia) when you’ve got no idea what happened.

    Our cold June (which was NOT record cold) was caused by three (weather) factors. O

    ne factor was a large “cold outbreak”, where a number of cold fronts charged up the east coast. Such events are not unusual (indeed our ski industry relies on them). However, what is known is that the midlattitude cyclones that cause these effects are migrating further south, which is a predicted outcome of climate change.

    Secondly, we had a large number of winter cyclones (also known East Coast Lows). These depress temps and are associated with the break down of an El Nino system, which finally occured (after months of dought) early this year.

    Thirdly, there was winter rain and cloud in the wet tropics. This happens, although not that often. All of these are weather features.

    Also, while we had a cold june, we had, for the most part, a warm winter (see the maps: http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/silo/temp_maps.cgi?variable=maxanom&area=nat&period=3month&time=history&steps=1)
    particularly in the south and west, including several regions that were warmest on record, including record early spring temperatures in Sydney.

    So please, before citing the climate in one particular place as evidence for a theory, do some reading first.

    Actually, that could be said about much of what you post.

  • henry // October 17, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    “Hank Roberts // Oct 17th 2007 at 3:32 am

    http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg18925431.400/mg18925431.400-2_752.jpg

    Once again, an interesting point in this chart: that the zero line (average) is based on the 1961-1990 period, for a chart that was shown in 2001, and covers an area from 1000-present.

    Why use an average of a 29-year period to show changes over a 1000 year chart?

    And before we get the typical “a 30 year period is enough to see a trend or get an average”, then use a 30 year period in the middle of either the MWP or LIA to get an average. See where that puts the centerline.

    [Response: First, anomalies are computed based on the average behavior from Jan. 1961 to Dec. 1990, so it's 30 years rather than 29.

    There are two reasons to do so. First, it brings all the curves into agreement during the reference period, and for that time frame we know the surface temperature from thermometer measurements. Second, it removes the annual cycle variations (this is northern hemisphere temperature, so it's hotter in summer and colder in winter).

    Choosing a different time period for the "reference" will have absolutely no impact on the trends. It will move the curves up or down as a whole without changing their shape, the differences between any two years in a single record will be unaffected. And the point of these studies is to determine the temperature *changes* over time; the location of the "zero point" is not the issue.]

  • Hank Roberts // October 17, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    Yep.

    So many people wish the world worked as the stories tell us it did “In olden times when wishing still helped one ….”

  • henry // October 17, 2007 at 3:35 pm

    “[Response: First, anomalies are computed based on the average behavior from Jan. 1961 to Dec. 1990, so it’s 30 years rather than 29.

    There are two reasons to do so. First, it brings all the curves into agreement during the reference period, and for that time frame we know the surface temperature from thermometer measurements. Second, it removes the annual cycle variations (this is northern hemisphere temperature, so it’s hotter in summer and colder in winter).

    Choosing a different time period for the “reference” will have absolutely no impact on the trends. It will move the curves up or down as a whole without changing their shape, the differences between any two years in a single record will be unaffected. And the point of these studies is to determine the temperature *changes* over time; the location of the “zero point” is not the issue.]”

    First. I agree, the trend lines will not change.

    Second. If we know the temps for the time between 1969 - 1990, then surely we know the temps for the period 1976 - 2006 (and the closer we get to present, the more accurate the measurements). Would also filter out annual cycle variations.

    Third. My continuing point. The charts show the amount the current temps are over average. If the center line (zero, average, whatever) goes up, IT GIVES THE APPEARANCE OF LOWER MAXIMUMS, and makes the old records appear to be lower (colder) than they are now.

    Stop and think. If the current max is .6, and the average line goes up .1, the trend hasn’t changed, but we’re not as far above average as we were before.

    So much of the discussion in the press is centered around the “we’ve gone up .6 degrees above the average”. If the chart’s zero changes, then it becomes “we’ve only gone up .5 degrees, not the .6 we thought”. True, we can argue that the trend hasn’t changed, but it would *sound* less severe.

    If anyone doubts it, PLEASE do two charts, using the same data, but use a different 30-year average. Then show BOTH charts to see what I mean.

  • J // October 17, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    henry, I hate to say this but you’re still confused.

    It doesn’t matter whether you calculate the anomalies with respect to a period of 1901-1930, 1961-1990, or a projected 2071-2100.

    In one case, you’ve got warming from 0 to 1 unit, in another, from -0.5 to +0.5 units, and in the third from -3 to -2 units.

    They’re all the same. 1 unit of warming per however-long-the-record is. Only the arbitrary zero-line is different.

    You seem to be strangely focused on how the numbers “sound,” but I don’t think anyone really cares about that.

  • henry // October 17, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    Forgive me. My field is electronics. In order for me to get an accurate measurement, I must know what the reference is.

    And I agree: 1 unit of rise (the “peak-to-peak” value of AC) will be the same whatever the center reference is.

    But if I measure DC, that ground (reference) better be accurate. A .6v measurement that is off by plus/minus .2V isn’t very accurate.

    The charts in question are showing the “anomaly”, or the value the reading is above or below the reference (in DC either Pos or Neg voltages).

    So lets use your numbers.

    Using HadCRU data for 1901 - 1930, the average anomaly is minus .39

    For the period 1961 - 1990, the average anomaly is minus .03.

    Since I can’t tell the future, lets use 1977 - 2006. That average anomaly is plus .21.

    Just using quick numbers (and remember, I’m in electronics, not statistics), it appears we’re only .4 degree above the reference line using the last 30 years numbers.

    I’m not saying that warming hasn’t taken place, or disputing the rate of rise, or denying that CO2 is changing the temps.

    But if that chart is going to tell me how much temps have risen in the last 1000 years, give me an up-to-date reference.

    P.S. Using HadCRU again, the average anomaly for the entire record they have (1850 - 2006) is minus .18.

  • george // October 17, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    Using precursor methods, Hathaway (who is on the NASA panel for predicting cycle 24) was completely wrong on cycle 23, not only with regard to the sunspot count at max (off by 50, or about 40%), but also with regard to the time of next minimum (off by over a year).


    New sunspot cycle to be bigger than average

    April 13, 1998:

    “Based on the various precursor techniques, Hathaway, Wilson, and Reichmann predict that Cycle 23 will rise faster than normal to its peak, attaining maximum amplitude sometime during the latter half of 1999 to the first half of 2000, and that it will measure about 170 plus or minus 20 units (yearly sunspot number). They expect Cycle 23 to continue until sometime in 2006 when the next cycle, Cycle 24, should begin.’

    [actual turned out to be 120 with min in March 2008+- 6 months ]

    “The consensus [among solar physicists] is that this cycle will be above average in size and probably a fast riser,” [Robert] Wilson said.

    “Still, with almost 250 years of observations - of which only the last 150 years are considered truly reliable- predictions are akin to the Farmer’s Almanac, Hathaway said.

    “There’s no real physics involved,” he explained. “It’s all statistical inferences.” (Hathaway)
    ////end quote

    One such prediction method is given
    here
    “Hathaway and colleague Bob Wilson, both working at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center, believe they’ve found a simple way to predict the date of the next solar minimum. “We examined data from the last 8 solar cycles and discovered that Solar Min follows the first spotless day after Solar Max by 34 months,” explains Hathaway.

    “The most recent solar maximum was in late 2000. The first spotless day after that was Jan 28, 2004. So, using Hathaway and Wilson’s simple rule, solar minimum should arrive in late 2006. That’s about a year earlier than previously thought.”

    ////end quote

    and, as it turns out, Hathaway’s [incorrect] prediction was about a year before the actual min.

    I did not mean to pick on Hathaway here, just wanted to illustrate a point. The more I look into this, the more convinced I become that Tamino is right that the state of the “science” of predicting future solar sunspot numbers at max is not particularly good.

  • tamino // October 17, 2007 at 7:38 pm

    I think another comment is in order here. George is right, the “state of the science” of solar cycle prediction is not very good. But making such predictions — wrong or right — is part of the process of science. Correlations are tested, precursors are sought, physical models are devised.

    They’re probably all wrong! But even if they are, proposals represent exploration of the possibilities. And those researchers who are bold enough to put their predictions in print before the fact are poised to make a strong case if they turn out to be right. If they turn out to be wrong, they can join the ranks of the many who have tried but not yet succeeded.

    It’s somewhat akin to attempting to be the first person to climb Mt. Everest. Even if you don’t make it to the top you just might learn something, and you’ve helped pave the way for those who follow.

    People tend to think of scientific research as restricted to the statement of identifiable truth. This is a serious misconception! Much of published research is exploratory contemplation of the possibilities, so that other researchers can ponder the merits of the arguments and prepare to test the forecasts that result. And that’s one of the ways science marches forward. You gotta crawl before you walk, and the first “baby steps” usually involve a lot of falling down.

  • J // October 17, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    henry —

    Whether the T anomaly is above, below, or right on what you are calling the “reference line” only matters if there’s some kind of physical significance to that line. In this case, the reference is arbitrary. So, while you bold-face the “plus” and “minus” signs, that’s not really relevant except in some kind of trivial psychological sense. It’s not meaningful in either a statistical or an earth-system-science way.

    I think the clue to your difficulty lies in this sentence: “But if that chart is going to tell me how much temps have risen in the last 1000 years, give me an up-to-date reference.”

    It sounds like what you’re really saying is that you want to know how today’s temperatures compare to a very-long-term average. If we had ironclad paleoclimate data sufficient to construct a global mean temperature time-series for the past millennium, that’d be nice. Unfortunately, the further back you go, the lower the confidence in the reconstructions.

    But that problem is irrelevant to the question of what baseline you choose for measuring a temperature anomaly. Saying that it’s warmer now than it was in 1650, or saying that it was colder in 1650 than it is now, are just two ways of saying the same thing.

  • Steve Bloom // October 17, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    This is amusing:

    Over at the Nature Climate Feedback blog, out old friend Timo Hameranta wrote:

    ” “The prize committee declared Al Gore “one of the world’s leading environmentalist politicians” and said the IPCC had “created an ever-broader informed consensus about the connection between human activities and global warming”.

    “Well, Al Gore is politician, but the IPCC’s arguments on human CO2 emissions’ decisive role are strictly scientifically premature and dubious, at least.

    “From the vast literature of alternative explanations please see e.g.

    “Usoskin, Ilya G., Sami K. Solanki, and G.A. Kovaltsov, 2007. Grand minima and maxima of solar activity: new observational constraints. Astronomy & Astrophysics Vol. 471, No 1, pp. 303-307, August III 2007, online”

    Of course Timo’s argument is a non sequitur, but out of curiosity I had a look at the abstract:

    “Grand minima and maxima of solar activity: new observational constraints

    “I. G. Usoskin, S. K. Solanki, and G. A. Kovaltsov

    “Aims. Using a reconstruction of sunspot numbers stretching over multiple millennia, we analyze the statistics of the occurrence of grand minima and maxima and set new observational constraints on long-term solar and stellar dynamo models.

    “Methods. We present an updated reconstruction of sunspot number over multiple millennia, from 14C data by means of a physics-based model, using an updated model of the evolution of the solar open magnetic flux. A list of grand minima and maxima of solar activity is presented for the Holocene (since 9500 BC) and the statistics of both the length of individual events as well as the waiting time between them are analyzed.

    “Results. The occurrence of grand minima/maxima is driven not by long-term cyclic variability, but by a stochastic/chaotic process. The waiting time distribution of the occurrence of grand minima/maxima deviates from an exponential distribution, implying that these events tend to cluster together with long event-free periods between the clusters. Two different types of grand minima are observed: short (30-90 years) minima of Maunder type and long (>110 years) minima of Spörer type, implying that a deterministic behaviour of the dynamo during a grand minimum defines its length. The duration of grand maxima follows an exponential distribution, suggesting that the duration of a grand maximum is determined by a random process.

    “Conclusions. These results set new observational constraints upon the long-term behaviour of the solar dynamo.”

    I wasn’t able to see the paper itself since it’s pay-walled, but the abstract itself doesn’t seem to do much for denialism. In fact, on its face it seems to trash the whole idea of long-term predictability of solar minima and maxima.

  • henry // October 18, 2007 at 4:57 am

    “Whether the T anomaly is above, below, or right on what you are calling the “reference line” only matters if there’s some kind of physical significance to that line. In this case, the reference is arbitrary. So, while you bold-face the “plus” and “minus” signs, that’s not really relevant except in some kind of trivial psychological sense. It’s not meaningful in either a statistical or an earth-system-science way.”

    Then all this chart is telling me is that current temps are some arbitrary value above a totally irrelevent center line.

    Got it.

    Thanks.

  • John Cook // October 18, 2007 at 10:08 am

    Steve, that’s an interesting paper. A quick google finds the full paper at http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0385v1.pdf - the conclusion is interesting:

    The occurrence of grand minima/maxima is not a result of long-term cyclic variations but is defined by stochastic/chaotic processes. This casts significant doubts on attempts of a long-term prediction of solar activity using multi-periodic analyses.

    and later…

    The duration of grand maxima follows an exponential distribution, in accord with the earlier finding of Solanki et al. (2004). This indicates that leaving a grand maximum is a random process, in contrast to the grand minimum case.

    My reading of this is we’ve been in a grand maxima for the last half century but basically, we don’t know when the hell it’s going to end.

  • J // October 18, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    henry wrote: “Then all this chart is telling me is that current temps are some arbitrary value above a totally irrelevent center line.”

    No. It’s telling you that they are x units above where they were in 1900, and that they have been rising at a rate of y units per decade for the past 30+ years.

    That information is independent of what arbitrary line you choose as “normal”.

    It’s like saying that a temperature rose from 290 to 292 K, versus saying that it rose from 17 to 19 degrees C. Both mean exactly the same thing, despite the fact that the numbers in the first case look a lot bigger.

    I’m honestly not trying to be insulting, but if you have trouble understanding this concept, there is no way you’re going to be able to grasp climate change science in any kind of quantitative way.

  • henry // October 18, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    One more time.

    ” It’s telling you that they are x units above where they were in 1900, and that they have been rising at a rate of y units per decade for the past 30+ years. ”

    Got that. Understand that. Agree with that. Rate of rise/fall is independent of center line, no matter what .

    “That information is independent of what arbitrary line you choose as “normal”.”

    By placing a center line, you are , by default, stating a “normal” value, with deviations or anomalies based on that.

    “It’s like saying that a temperature rose from 290 to 292 K, versus saying that it rose from 17 to 19 degrees C. Both mean exactly the same thing, despite the fact that the numbers in the first case look a lot bigger.”

    Then state it like that. Let the people see that 30 years ago, the world temp was 17C, and now it’s at 17.6C. Simple. No problem.

    “I’m honestly not trying to be insulting, but if you have trouble understanding this concept, there is no way you’re going to be able to grasp climate change science in any kind of quantitative way.”

    Not insulted. But since I’m ex-USAF, I’ll try one more analogy, then let it rest.

    Take two aircraft, flying at 6000 ft. In order to land, they might decend at 500 ft/sec (rate of change). This means they should both reach sea level in 12 sec (max/min). Those values don’t change.

    Say the FAA just set a “zero” line at 3000 ft, based on average airport altitudes 20 years ago, and list Denver at x ft above the reference, and Vegas as y ft below the reference.

    Two years later, they reset the “zero” to 2500. Denver is now x+500, and Vegas is now y-500.

    Denver has just gotten 500 ft higher than 22 years ago, while Vegas has sunk 500 ft.

    Same thing. Reference values DO matter…

  • windansea // October 18, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0385v1.pdf

    hmmm, those graphs in figure 1 look familiar, kind of like a hockey stick, it appears this paper shows that the sun has been more actice, more bright, and burning hotter than at any time in the last 10,000 years.

    I wasn’t able to see the paper itself since it’s pay-walled, but the abstract itself doesn’t seem to do much for denialism. In fact, on its face it seems to trash the whole idea of long-term predictability of solar minima and maxima.

    as usual you are confused Steve. Solar loons like myself are encouraged by this paper. Also, our ability to predict solar cycle strengths has nothing to do with my scepticism re AGW theories.

    oops, I was wrong above, it looks like the sun was a bit more hot 9000 years ago (see figure 3)

    The Sun spends around 3/4 of the time at moderate magnetic activity levels (averaged over 10 years). The remainder of the time is spent in the state of a grand minimum (about 17%) or a grand maximum (9% or 22%
    for the SN-L or SN-S series, respectively). The solar activity during modern times corresponds to the grand maximum state.

  • Hank Roberts // October 18, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    > Denver has just gotten 500 ft higher than 22
    > years ago, while Vegas has sunk 500 ft.
    >
    > Same thing.

    Er, no. That did not happen.

    Remember converting to metric? Sizes did’t change. Your shoes are still the same size, just the little numbers printed inside are different.

    > Reference values DO matter…

    Yes. The nice thing about standards is that we have so many of them. You could hit Mars by mistake if you confuse metric and English units — it’s been done.

    Keeping everything set at an old standard reference doesn’t solve the problem. People have to look these things up to understand them.

  • henry // October 18, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    Metric or english, k/c/f degrees, doesn’t matter.

    If the mercury in a thermometer goes up 1 inch for each 10 degrees, then what effect would raising the entire scale by 1/2 inch have on the mercury reaction? None.

    But does that 1 inch rise equal a 10 degree range above zero, or 10 degrees below zero? Maybe it’s split, -8/+2.

    Reference matters.

    If reference didn’t matter, why do we even bother calibrating our instruments? As long as we can chart the rate of change over time, that’s what’s most important, not whether we’re .6 degrees above a 20-year-old reference.

  • luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 12:13 am

    Henry,

    The obvious reference for temperature is 0K. That would leave a big blank space on the bottom of our graphs. Sometimes it is more convenient to refer to an arbitrary standard for the purposes of comparison. If you want to survey a piece of ground you have to start from a single point. Any point will do.

    Other than that, I fail to see your point.

  • John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 12:26 am

    windansea, if you haven’t read it already, I suggest reading Usoskin 2005 (coauthored by Solanki, similar authors to the Usoskin 2007 paper) where they comment that the solar trend is rather “hockey stick-like” and is burning hotter this century than anytime over the past 11,500 years but also mention the major point that is often neglected in the whole sun/global warming debate - the correlation between sun and temperature ends in the mid 70’s:

    “During these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source”

  • windansea // October 19, 2007 at 12:46 am

    During these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source”

    yes I’m familiar with that one as well, but the solar cycles in the last 50 years are still part of a group that forms the highest grand maxima in thousands of years, it may not show a trend (Dr Wilson’s ACRIM data says it still is a slight trend upward measuring the minima) but the sun is still in a very hot phase, double what it was pre 1900. The total solar magnet field is 5-10 times stronger than during the Maunder, so if the relation of this to cloud formation is correct, this is affecting planetary albedo in a large way. We don’t really have a handle on the many proposed solar forcings besides TSI to rule out the sun at this point.

  • John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 1:46 am

    Whether you use ACRIM or PMOD, the difference is a very slight upward trend or a slight downward trend or possibly no trend at all. That’s the whole point - TSI is showing very little trend while temperature is rising. TSI and magnetic fields are stronger now than in the past but they’re not showing the rising trend that would be required to explain current warming.

    TSI is a good proxy for other solar forcings which makes sense as the solar magnetic field is directly related to TSI as well as how much cosmic radiation gets through to earth. This is why all the solar forcings - magnetic field, TSI, cosmic rays all correlate with temperatures in the past but break down in the 70’s when the modern global warming trend began. So when you talk about low solar activity during the Maunder and how closely the sun correlates to climate in the past, it only further highlights the lack of correlation in recent decades.

  • windansea // October 19, 2007 at 5:02 am

    so basically you are saying solar forcings must march in lockstep with temp trends to be viable? CO2 can lag behind temps for 100s of years, or cause them instantaneously? There are no heat storage systems on the planet?

    it only further highlights the lack of correlation in recent decades.

    another quote from Usokin

    The level of solar activity also affects the Sun’s radiative output [2], which in turn may influence the Earth’s climate [3]. ,However, any such influence takes place on time scales longer than the solar cycle, so that a statistically significant comparison with paleoclimatic records requires a long time series of solar activity data.

  • John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    What I’m saying is if solar activity correlates closely with temperature, then you have a good argument that the sun affects climate. But if the correlation breaks down, then you’d have to conclude some other forcing is imposing itself upon the climate. Which is exactly what Usoskin 2005 concludes.

    In the past, CO2 has lagged temperature by up to 1000 years. But I’ve never said CO2 has been the major driver of climate in the past. In fact, the major “initiator” of deglaciation periods is milankovitch cycles warming the south, which are then amplified and spread from the south to the tropics and northern hemisphere by the southern oceans degassing CO2.

    Your quote about time scales is spot on - Usoskin 2005 looks at long term trends greater than the 11 year cycle. The correlation he finds is by comparing long term trends in solar and temperature. You’re also right about heat storage systems - Usoskin 2005 finds the correlation between sun and temp is highest when temp lags solar activity by 10 years. He chalks it off to the thermal inertia of the ocean. It’s a great paper, rich in content.

  • luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    windy,

    There is no significant correlation between solar cycles and temperature for the last thirty years.

    None. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

    If the sun were mostly responsible, there would be some immediate (within two years or a decade) correlation with the sunspot cycle, just like there was before AGW became the dominant forcing, regardless of how much energy might be stored in the oceans.

    [Response: I disagree. The thermal inertia of the climate system (mostly the oceans) makes the system act like a "low-pass filter," meaning that the response to oscillating forces (like the solar cycle) will be suppressed. The faster the cycle, the more suppressed. This could make the response to the solar cycle too small to register statistical significance, but wouldn't prevent a strong response to long-timescale changes in solar forcing.

    The real problem with solar explaining modern warming is that due to stability in solar output for 50 years or so, it would have to be a "delayed" response due to thermal inertia. But if that were the case, we'd see temperature assymptotically approaching its new equilibrium, when in fact temperature has been climbing steadily.]

  • Steve Bloom // October 19, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Actually you’re starting to seem seen like more of a solar ostrich, windy. While it’s true that the oceans will cause a lag for atmospheric heat content changes from any source, the behavior of the atmosphere itself is quite different. Solar changes are essentially instantaneous. The persistent GHGs like CO2 also have an instantaneous effect, but it’s very slight in the quantities we’re experiencing; their power is in how that effect adds up over a long period of time. Another big difference is that GHGs are well-mixed in the atmosphere, and so their influence doesn’t wax and wane with the seasons or the diurnal cycle. There are yet other differences, but the upshot is that the signatures of solar and GHGs are quite different and are very much prone to detection.

    If solar influences are the dominant effect in the Holocene, we would expect to see climate track it. The problem is that it doesn’t. Have a look at the graphs on pages three and four of the new study. Other than the current maximum and an apparent correlation of the recent minimum with the LIA (I say apparent because on a global basis the LIA wasn’t very impressive), climate and solar influences don’t line up very well. Notice in particular the absence of any indication of an MWP, although the more important failure is with respect to the Holocene thermal maximum.

  • J // October 19, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    henry:

    On the main issue, I give up. I and others have tried explaining this a lot of different ways, and at this point I guess we’ll just have to disagree.

    But I wanted to make a note about this:

    “Then state it like that. Let the people see that 30 years ago, the world temp was 17C, and now it’s at 17.6C. Simple. No problem.”

    Well, there is a problem. It’s easier to measure the anomaly than the absolute temperature of the whole planet. There are a number of reasons for this. First of all, anomalies are spatially autocorrelated over a relatively large distance (1000 km?) whereas absolute temperatures can vary over distances < 1 km. Secondly, measuring only anomalies lets you avoid some of the thornier instrumental calibration problems. There are probably other reasons as well.

    Think of it this way. If you want to know which of two people is taller, it’s a lot easier to simply stand them next to each other and measure the difference. It would be a lot harder — and less accurate — to figure out the absolute elevation of the top of person A’s head above sea level, repeat the process for person B, and then subtract.

    [Response: NASA GISS estimates that the absolute temperature corresponding to 0.0 anomaly in their time series is 14 deg.C, so anomaly 0 is 14 deg.C, anomaly 1 is 15 deg.C, etc. But as you say, the estimate of the "zero point" is less precise than the estimated anomaly.]

  • luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    tamino,

    I take your point, but it would seem to me, given the relatively small changes in amplitude and frequency of the solar cycle, that any long term accumulation of ocean tempered energy would show a gradual flattening of short cycle response, and not a relatively sudden regime change. Something has to be boosting the gain on your low pass filter and ocean inertia has… well… inertia.

  • Mario // October 19, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    > The real problem with solar explaining modern warming
    > is that due to stability in solar output for 50 years or so,
    > it would have to be a “delayed” response due to thermal inertia.
    > But if that were the case, we’d see temperature assymptotically
    > approaching its new equilibrium,
    > when in fact temperature has been climbing steadily.

    This is totally correct when in the model the relevant factors are two: “sun-output-increase” and “thermal inertia”.

    But if we add a third one: a temporary, but relevant, cooling factor (say sulfate aerosols…) acting in the 1940-1980 period, I suppose that - inventing the right figures - the model could be brought to track well the known XX century temperature record…

    I’m not saying I believe this to be the correct explanation,
    but that until it and its possibile variations are somehow ruled out, it is impossible to refute the Sun theories with the far too simple logic proposed.

  • Steve Bloom // October 19, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    Tamino, I think an implied part of lb’s aregument is that if solar forcing was really large enough to be the main thing going on then the effect in the atmosphere would be obvious. Of course it’s a subtle effect and so is not obvious.

  • Chris O'Neill // October 20, 2007 at 2:27 am

    windansea: “funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.”

    What incredible ignorance. The original (MBH98) hockey stick that goes back to AD 1400 was based on a couple more proxies than the MBH99 hockey stick that goes back to AD 1000. The proxies of the MBH99 hockey stick are shown in table 1 of MBH99 and are:

    North America PC#1 Tree ring width
    North America PC#2 Tree ring width
    North America PC#3 Tree ring width
    Fennoscandia Tree ring density
    Polar Urals Tree ring width
    Tasmania Tree ring width
    N. Patagonia Tree ring width
    Morocco Tree ring width
    France Tree ring width
    Greenland stacked core ice core delta O18
    Quelccaya (2) ice core delta O18
    Quelccaya (2) ice accumulation

    “single stand of bristlecones”

    Yeah, sure.

  • John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 8:58 am

    Luminous B says

    “MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up”

    No. The BP data is key to the h-s shape. The reason being :-

    It is perfectly normal to ‘normalise’ data prior to it’s use in statistical analysis. By convention, this involves subtracting the mean of the data set and dividing by the standard deviation resulting in the normalised data set with mean=0; sd =1; This is particularly useful if several data sets of different measurement units are involved in the analysis. Tree ring data is almost always archived in it’s normalised form. It’s worth noting, though, that normalising the data in the standard way would leave the data unchanged.

    Mann decided to re-normalise the data but rather than using the mean of the entire data series he used the mean for the period 1902-1980. This had the effect of inflating the variance of any data set which exhibited anomalous 20th century growth – and to promote the data set as the most influential in the analysis. In the case of the Mann study the data set formed the first principle component (PC1) in the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) .

    The infamous Bristlecone Pines experienced anomalous 20th century ring growth and the rest, as they say, is history. The reason for the growth is not clear but it does NOT appear to be temperature-related.

    I could go on here about the use of tree rings and proxies, in general and how it’s simply nonsense to suggest that these methods can provide any precision or accuracy regarding the magnitude of past climate fluctuations. I’m not going to, though – lazy, you see. But it is worth remembering that recent tree ring data doesn’t even come close to emulating recent surface temperature observations. So take your pick

    (i) Either the proxy reconstructions are total garbage. (highly likely)
    (ii) Or the surface temperature record is wrong.

    PS Sorry, windandsea, if I appear to be stealing your thunder. I’ve just noticed that I’ve repeated some of your points.

  • John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 9:00 am

    Part of Tamino’s response to my earlier post

    “Your thesis is really founded on the temperature behavior from a SINGLE LOCATION, for a SINGLE DECADE, from the MOST IMPRECISE part of the record.”

    Of course - how silly of me. Not as silly, though, as ‘99% of climate scientists’ who – between 1998 and around 2005 - based their understanding of climate over the previous 1000 years on a single cluster of bristlecone pine trees.

    In my defence, I think I made it clear that the CET closely tracks the other 8 long-term records which closely track the modern surface temperature record. It ‘s not unreasonable, therefore, to suppose that the CET is a reasonable proxy for the NH, in general, during the 17th century.

    Do you mean precision or accuracy? Either way I find it strange that the readings show a consistently strong cooling bias from mid-1600s onwards – and a remarkable coincidence that this occurs exactly at the time of the maunder minimum. Must be down to the 17th century climate change “deniers”.

    I’d certainly trust the CET record – even before 1700 - above most of the other records around the world. Who maintains the weather stations in the war-torn parts of the developing world? During WWII, were the Poles or the Russians worrying about ensuring daily temperature reading were precise to 0.1 deg? What about WW1 or the Russian revolution? Don’t put too much trust in the specified precision of temperature records.

    Of course I could dig out all the studies that show the LIA (and MWP) was a period of significant climate change pretty much everywhere- but this takes time and effort and I’m not the most industrious sort.

  • John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 9:04 am

    Richard says

    “There are, by contrast, many peer-reviewed studies showing that man-made GHG are correlated with global temps and that GHG emissions are the best explanation for those temps.”

    Richard

    Read those studies. I’ll guarantee they’re either (i) studies where the results are based on models or (ii) so-called ‘detection and attribution’ studies which effectively conclude that “we can’t think of anything else that might have caused it”.

    Either way there are erroneous (I believe) assumptions about solar forcing (under-estimated) and aerosols (over-estimated). Aerosols are just a huge fudge factor to explain inconvenient periods like mid-20th century cooling. There’s actually no evidence whatsoever that aerosols have any effect on global climate - and have only a minor one at local level.

    If you want proof - simply check the temperature records at the most industrialised locations . Remember the effect of aerosols is “REGIONALLY SPECIFIC”.

  • Leif Svalgaard // October 20, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    I noticed several comments and questions around my work in prediction of solar cycle strength (Rmax). The method that I use was proposed by me and several colleagues at Stanford back in 1978. It uses as the precursor the polar fields of the sun. T