We are near the end of solar cycle 23, and the beginning of solar cycle 24. The last century saw some of the strongest solar cycles ever observed, in accord with estimates that solar output increased slightly in the first half of the 20th century. In fact, the increase in solar output is part of the reason for the planetary warming observed in the early 20th century, but can’t explain the recent, stronger warming because, well, average solar output hasn’t really changed in 50 years or so.
The most obvious sign of the solar cycle is the sunspot cycle, and the most common sunspot index is the Zurich sunspot number, also known as the Wolf number. This is actually a composite of sunspot count and sunspot group count (a method devised by Rudolph Wolf in 1848); the sunspot number is ten times the number of groups, plus the number of spots. Here’s a graph of monthly average Zurich sunspot number from 1750 to the present:
The 11-year cycle is obvious. It’s also evident that each cycle has a different peak height, and even a different duration. Many investigators have sought precursors, or “early warning” signals, which can foretell when the next cycle will begin and how strong it will be. Many relationships have been looked for, and many possibilities have been raised, but most of the potential relationships have not been established with statistical significance. This doesn’t mean they’re not correct; it simply means we haven’t yet found out with sufficient precision to have confidence in them. Mainly this is because of a paucity of available data; only 22 full cycles have been observed with sufficient precision to determine their parameters accurately enough for study.
An accurate prediction of the solar cycle would be very valuable. But I know from long experience just how difficult such a prediction is. Solar cycles don’t follow simple patterns; although the solar cycle is dominated by a roughly 11-year period, the timing and strength of each individual cycle is different. Furthermore, no one has yet identified a reliable pattern to those cycle-to-cycle variations.
Of course that doesn’t stop people from trying. In fact lots of people have tried, and NASA has a committee for the prediction of solar cycle 24 (the Marshall Space Flight Center has a solar cycle prediction page). In April, the prediction committee issued a press release indicating that expert opinion was split between predictions of a weaker-than-usual and stronger-than-usual upcoming cycle.
One of the activities of this committee has been to collect together predictions from the scientific literature, as well as predictions specifically solicited by NASA, to get an idea of the range of estimate from various researchers. These are collected together in a table of predictions available from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center (in Greenbelt, MD, not to be confused with the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City).
The only relationship I’m aware of which can be established with statistical significance is that a longer solar cycle tends to be followed by a weaker one, while a shorter cycle tend to be followed by a stronger one:
Other possible factors include the rise time from minimum to maximum, the fall time from maximum to minimum, the asymmetry of the cycle, and measures of magnetic activity, but as yet these have not been established.
The next cycle is later than expected; current estimates are that it may start as late as March of 2008. But this is not later than average, a March ‘08 beginning will mean that cycle 23 lasted 11 years, just about average. The collected predictions of the strength of the upcoming cycle span a range from very strong to very weak. The average cycle strength at maximum is an index of 115, and predictions cluster about that average value (click the graph for a clearer view):
Based on available information, NASA scientists have put together the following prediction for cycle 24:
I’ll emphasize again that nobody really knows whether the next cycle will be stronger or weaker than average. We simply don’t yet have the ability to predict the characteristics of upcoming solar cycles.
In spite of this, some global warming denialists insist that not only will the next cycle be a weak one, we’re actually headed for another “Maunder-like” minimum. The Maunder minimum was a period of reduced solar activity from about 1645 to 1715. During this period almost no sunspots were seen, and it’s estimated that total solar irradiance (the total energy output of the sun) was also less than average. This, some say, will lead to cooling of the climate, and make a liar out of global warming activists.
To me, this argument makes absolutely no sense. For one thing, climate scientists — the ones who claim that greenhouse gases are the cause of global warming — have never denied that solar variations influence climate. For another thing, even if we do see another Maunder-like minimum (which I doubt), that won’t change the fact that greenhouse gases also influence climate, and we’re well along the pathway to altering it rapidly and with serious consequences; a temporary respite due to reduced solar activity won’t change the infrared absorption properties of CO2 and other atmospheric gases. Then there’s the fact that even the diminished solar output of the Maunder minimum had only a slight influence on climate, according to paleoclimate reconstructions. Here are two of the most prominent estimates of northern hemisphere temperature from 1500 to 1900 (Moberg et al. 2005 and Mann & Jones 2003):
It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.
In the history of serious sunspot observations (basically since the invention of the telescope), we’ve only observed one Maunder-like minimum, and only 22 full solar cycles have been accurately delineated. Those who claim we have enough understanding to say with confidence that we’re about to enter a new Maunder minimum, are fooling themselves. Don’t let ‘em fool you.
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE
One reader is convinced that solar activity is headed for another Maunder-like minimum, which will cause global temperature to decline significantly. He also seems to think that Dr. Svalgaard’s prediction for solar cycle 24 is more reliable than others’. So I tracked down Dr. Svalgaard’s published work containing the prediction: Svalgaard et al. 2005, Geophysical Research Letters, 32, L01104. What, you wonder, is the prediction for the upcoming solar cycle?
Using direct polar field measurements, now available for four solar cycles, we predict that the approaching solar cycle 24 (2011 maximum) will have a peak smoothed monthly sunspot number of 75 ± 8, making it potentially the smallest cycle in the last 100 years.
If this turns out to be correct (and that’s a big “if”), then it’ll be the weakest solar cycle since cycle 14 (peaking in 1901 at an index of 64.2). But it’s nowhere near another “Maunder-like minimum.” Dr. Svalgaard’s prediction doesn’t support the idea, it contradicts it.
Regarding the ability to predict solar cycles in general, the first paragraph of the introduction to the paper states:
At present, our limited understanding of the solar cycle does not allow predictions of future solar activity from theory.
This belies confidence in predictions of upcoming solar cycles.

205 responses so far ↓
windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:29 am |
at last you address my concerns, gracias Tamino!
you are correct in saying the NASA panel is split on cycle 24, but note that Dr Svalsgard is the panel member with the best record in prediction, and he predicts 24 will be the lowest in 100 years. A majority of astrophysicists predict cycle 25 will be a major minimum. If we see 2 cycles at major minimums then we have the opportunity to measure solar irradiance vs CO2 forcings on our climate. This is good.
TSI is one measure of solar output, some say it has declined in the last 50 years (Lockwood & PMOD) and others (Wilson) say it has increased (using ACRIM minimums) Regardless of what you believe about TSI measurements, it is undisputible that solar magnetics doubled during the last century, and now have slowed to the lowest level in recorded history. Cosmic ray theory as connected to solar magnetics and cloud formation may be a fantasy, or it could be a reality with huge implications for planetary albedo, which can double global rejection of heat.
We are possibly headed for a double whammy on the CO2 based GHG thesis of AGW. I look forward to the results.
windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:51 am |
It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.
I’m sorry but that is not correct.
During the Little Ice Age, access to Greenland was largely cut off by ice from 1410 to the 1720s. At the same time, canals in Holland routinely froze solid, glaciers advanced in the Alps, and sea-ice increased so much that no open water was present in any direction around Iceland in 1695.
Between the mid-1600s and the early 1700s the Earth’s surface temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere appear to have been at or near their lowest values of the last millennium. European winter temperatures over that time period were reduced by 1.8 to 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit (1-1.5 Celsius). This cool down is evident through derived temperature readings from tree rings and ice cores, and in historical temperature records, as gathered by the University of Massachusetts-Amherst and the University of Virginia.
windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:52 am |
the above from NASA
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2001/200112065794.html
windansea // October 14, 2007 at 2:54 am |
The paper, “Solar forcing of regional climate change during the Maunder Minimum,” by authors Drew Shindell, Gavin Schmidt, and David Rind, from NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies and co-authors Michael Mann and Anne Waple, from the Universities of Virginia and Massachusetts respectively, appears in the December 7 issue of Science.
tamino // October 14, 2007 at 3:09 am |
windansea: instead of flooding the board with four comments in rapid succession, how about collecting your thoughts into a single coherent comment?
NASA’s solar cycle prediction committee has surveyed the literature *and* solicited opinions, and notes that expert opinion is about evenly divided between higher-than-average and lower-than-average. But you seem convinced beyond doubt that solar activity is about to take a nose-dive. Your belief that we actually know enough to predict with confidence is delusional.
You link to a NASA news release from 2001 to suggest that the Maunder minimum had a large impact on climate, while I show graphs of two of the leading paleoclimate reconstructions (both more current) which contradict that. To all readers, ask yourself this: if I hadn’t told you when the Muander minimum occurred or marked it on the graph, would you have been able to tell from the temperature plots?
And you still seem to think that *if* there’s a big drop in solar activity it will somehow contradict the impact of greenhouse gases — be a “double whammy on the CO2 based GHG thesis of AGW.” I repeat, solar influence does not negate the climate-forcing action of greenhouse gases.
It’s very revealing that legitimate climate scientists do *not* deny a solar influence, but many “solar advocates” seem to think that establishing a solar influence (which by the way has *already* been established) will somehow negate the influence of greenhouse gases. And to quote the last line from the very NASA newrelease you link to (a quote from Dr. Shindell no less):
windansea // October 14, 2007 at 4:12 am |
Your belief that we actually know enough to predict with confidence is delusional
nope, just based on track records of the astrophysicists on the panel Dr Svalsgard is the best, I’ll readily admit that solar science is at kindergarden level, just like climate science, but the more 24 delays the higher my confidence level.
while I show graphs of two of the leading paleoclimate reconstructions (both more current) which contradict that.
graphs are nice but the annecdotal evidence for Maunder cooling is overwhelming.
even if we do see another Maunder-like minimum (which I doubt)
why would you doubt it? solar cycles are cyclical and repeat, this is proven
will somehow negate the influence of greenhouse gases.
I’ve never said this, the GHG effect is evident but so far unquantifiable, IMHO overestimated.
luminous beauty // October 14, 2007 at 4:12 am |
windy does have a tendency to read only the parts of a paper that support his thesis:
cce // October 14, 2007 at 6:01 am |
To review: he selectively quoted a paper co-authored by Mann, while simultaneously ignoring Mann’s temperature reconstruction (the most recent version of the “Hockey Stick”) in deference to “anecdotal” evidence from regions as diverse as Europe and Greenland.
george // October 14, 2007 at 2:00 pm |
Predicting that the next solar cycle is going to be the next “Maunder minimum” strikes me as more like astrology than like science.
It’s one thing to attempt to predict the rough size of the next cycle relative to the size of the last few cycles (ie, “a longer solar cycle tends to be followed by a weaker one, while a shorter cycle tend to be followed by a stronger one”), but to predict the magnitude of the next cycle relative to the magnitude of cycles that occurred over 300 years ago (when the understanding of what caused the maunder min is poor if not non-existent) strikes me as little better than predicting a person’s future based on the day on which they were born.
Also, maybe it is just my imagination, but it seems to me that the “solar argument against the reality and/or seriousness of global warming” has recently “flipped” from the “solar output is increasing” (ie, the sun is largely responsible for recent warming) to “we’re headed into another Maunder minimum”.
tamino // October 15, 2007 at 12:44 am |
I tracked down Svalgaard’s prediction for the upcoming solar cycle; it’s summarized in the update to this post.
luminous beauty // October 15, 2007 at 1:02 am |
Shorter windy,
Don’t do anything about global warming, ’cause the transient effects on climate of magnetic solar storms is too small to be detected, and if, maybe, the remote possibility of an uncertain future dramatic decrease of magnetic storms would provide a scalar against which the, so far, undetectable influence of magnetic storms can be compared to the greenhouse effect, then the strong, detectable signal from the greenhouse effect, may be proportionately reduced by some insignificant amount and everything will be just hunky-dory.
O happy day!
richard // October 15, 2007 at 2:48 am |
Actually, the last minimum was May 1996 (with a smoothed International Sunspot Number of 8.0). So if the next minimum occurs in March 2008, this cycle will have lasted 11.83 years, putting it above average duration (above 70th percentile from the looks of your chart).
Also, the Maunderesque minimum talk is not just about Solar Cycle 24 (about which there is a divergence of opinions) but is also about Solar Cycle 25. It seems that there is a greater consensus that the cycle after next will be quite low. If both are lower than we’ve seen in 100 years, you are at least looking at a Dalton-type event, if not a Maunder one.
[Response: My mistake, I misread the table of minimum times. A cycle length of 11.83 years would make this the 7th-longest out of 23 tabulated cycles.
I'm skeptical (as are most experts in the field) of our ability to predict the strength of the next solar cycle; I'm even *more* skeptical of our ability to predict the strength of the cycle after that.]
Chris C // October 15, 2007 at 7:13 am |
Ah Tamino, you are bringing back fond memories of my time as an undergraduate working on flare/prominence/CME prediction. I had to sit back and watch as our complex dynamical predictions (at one point running on 50 simultaneous CPUs) were blown away by predictions made using Bayesian regression. This made me realise (for the first time) just how infantile our understanding of solar dynamics are.
It also made me realise just how infantile the ideas of those who make blanket claims about the strength of future solar cycles are. At present, we simply do not have the ability to make predictions about the strength or length of future solar cycles with any confidence.
I would also caution those who point to the little ice age as evidence that the Earth is going to plunge into a cool period as a result of a sunspot minima. The cause of the little ice age is not yet completely understood. According to Houghton et al. (1996) the increase in solar luminosity since the maunder minimum is 0.4 plus or minus 0.2 %, which is insufficient to account for the level of cooling observed in the northern hemisphere during the LIA.
However, the LIA also corresponded to a time of increased volcanic activity (such as Tambora in 1815) and a period of North Atlantic Oscillation anomalies, which may account for the cold period observed in Europe and the fact that the LIA affected different parts of the world quite differently (particularly in the Southern Hemisphere).
Everybody agrees that the sun influences climate. This does not change the fact that increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere will also change the climate. There is a problem with the denialists logic (surprise, surprise).
John Finn // October 15, 2007 at 10:15 am |
“It’s apparent that the Maunder minimum did not cause temperatures to take a nose-dive, only a slight decrease.”
You’re relying on proxies for this conclusion. If you use ACTUAL temperature readings it is apparent that the temperature did rise/ fall quite spectacularly during/ after the Maunder Minimum.
[Response: Actual temperature measurments for the period 1645 to 1715? They cover such an extremely limited area that they don't permit any conclusions about global or even hemispheric temperature for that time period. That's *why* we use proxies to study temperature for that time period. Fortunately, this time is recent enough that we have a greater supply and greater variety of proxies to work with. If you recall the study by the review panel of the National Academy of Sciences on the state of the science of paleoclimate reconstructions, they didn't just say that such reconstructions are plausible for the last 2,000 years, they expressed *high confidence* in reconstructions for the last 400 years.]
george // October 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm |
I’d have to say that NASA’s prediction for cycle 23 was not all that good.
The actual number of sunspots at maximum (120) was below the number at the low end of the range (130) and well (25%) below the “estimated” value (160).
For what’s worth (maybe nothing) sunspot numbers for cycles 21 and 22 were right around 160.
But what the NASA panel actually predicted about cycle 24 was not even close to “it will be another maunder min” (and the low number does not even deviate much from the average, certainly nowhere near the “lowest in 100 years” range)
Here’s what the panel actually said:
“What follows is the consensus of the panel
Solar Minimum
March, 2008 (±6 months)
Marks the end of Cycle 23 and start of Cycle 24
The length of Cycle 23 will then be 11.75 years
Longer than the average of 11 years [but not by much]
Cycle 24 Maximum
Will peak at a sunspot number of 140(±20) in October, 2011
Or
Will peak at a sunspot number of 90(±10) in August, 2012
An average solar cycle peaks at 114
The next cycle will be neither extreme, nor average [bold added by me]
But, the panel is split down the middle on whether it will be bigger than average or smaller than average”
[end panel quote]
So, take your pick — or flip a coin: Heads it’s bigger. tails its smaller.
Boris // October 15, 2007 at 3:51 pm |
“If we see 2 cycles at major minimums then we have the opportunity to measure solar irradiance vs CO2 forcings on our climate.”
Why does solar have to be decreasing for us to compare the two forcings? This males no sense at all.
windansea // October 15, 2007 at 5:11 pm |
But what the NASA panel actually predicted about cycle 24 was not even close to “it will be another maunder min”
never said that, just that Svalgaard (who has best track record) predicts the lowest cycle in 100 years. Cycle 25 is being predicted as possible the lowest in centuries, a Dalton or Maunder type minimum.
“The slowdown we see now means that Solar Cycle 25, peaking around the year 2022, could be one of the weakest in centuries,” says Hathaway
Shindell noted that the effects of this period of a dimmer Sun were concentrated more regionally than globally. “Global average temperature changes are small, approximately .5 to .7 degrees Fahrenheit (0.3-0.4C), but regional temperature changes are quite large.”
here is Shindell’s anomally map, judge for yourself if the cooling was “just regional”
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/shindell_06/fig3.gif
It also made me realise just how infantile the ideas of those who make blanket claims about the strength of future solar cycles are.
no one is making blanket claims, just posting some predictions made by some NASA astrophysicists. It’s kind of funny to see typical “denialist” statements in this thread. “solar science is unsettled” “they don’t have a clue” etc etc
Take a look at this graph, solar TSI and magnetics have increased quite a bit in the last few centuries, if the sun shuts down as some predict then we will have a better understanding of relative climate forcings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Solar_Activity_Proxies.png
Santiago Chile just had it’s coldest winter since the LIA (1885) Australia also had a record cold June. Just weather? Or beginnings of a solar induced climate shift.
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Frigid_Southern_Hemisphere_Winter.pdf
george // October 15, 2007 at 6:52 pm |
windansea claimed: “Svalgaard (who has best track record) predicts the lowest cycle in 100 years.”
You keep saying that, but what exactly is his “track record”?
for all I know, he may have just got a single prediction within 20% and that might be the “best” prediction of anyone to date (and that might just have been luck)
In addition to the specifics of his future cycle prediction record, what I want to know is this: How well does his theory reproduce past cycles based on the previous cycles?
I’d say that is just as important if no more important than a couple right answers on future cycles.
If he is as good with his predictions as you seem to imply, why does NASA even bother having anyone else on the solar cycle prediction panel?
Svalgard was not on the cycle 23 prediction panel, so it’s no wonder they got it wrong ( though I notice the other scientist you mentioned — Hathaway — was on that panel)
By the way, do incorrect predictions count against a person?
Or are we only counting “correct” predictions (as psychics do)?
And just how close does one have to be with one’s prediction to be considered correct? (within 50%? 20%, 10%)
Steve Bloom // October 15, 2007 at 8:20 pm |
IIRC the NAS panel’s high confidence in climate trends for the last 400 years was to a great extent based on this 2005 Science paper by Oerlemans. These glacier records don’t go back very far, but for the period covered they’re very robust. While one can certainly speculate about fluctuations within the error bars, the central trend shows no significant trace of the Maunder Minimum.
windansea // October 15, 2007 at 8:59 pm |
You keep saying that, but what exactly is his “track record”?
actually I should say Dr Svalgard uses the method with the best record in prediction, called the precursor method. But I don’t know the actual numbers of success. He comments at http://www.solarcycle24.com regularly. He will tell you prediction is very tricky but he seems pretty confident at this point. Ask him a question.
Confidence in a low 24 is rising because 24 is late, NASA actually had to lower their consensus (which means nil as it averages about 28 separate predictions) Basically there was a high group and a low group. Thing is, grand minima are cyclical and we are due for some lows. And as Hathaway observed, “Normally, the conveyor belt moves about 1 meter per second—walking pace,” says Hathaway. “That’s how it has been since the late 19th century.” In recent years, however, the belt has decelerated to 0.75 m/s in the north and 0.35 m/s in the south. “We’ve never seen speeds so low.”
http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/images/image022.jpg
[Response: What's the evidence the "grand minima are cyclical"?]
windansea // October 15, 2007 at 9:15 pm |
the central trend shows no significant trace of the Maunder Minimum.
LOL “we have to get rid of the Maunder’
Evidence from tree rings and other temperature proxies suggests that during the previous 500 years global temperatures were 1.0ºC cooler than those of the 20th century during a period roughly from 1300 to 1870 – known as the Little Ice Age. While overall temperatures during the Little Ice Age were cooler than now, there was much year-to-year variability and some warm periods. The coldest part of the Little Ice Age, from 1645 to 1715, was also a time of minimum sun spots, referred to as the Maunder minimum. Although there is a correspondence in time, the causal connection between sun variability and Earth climate is a subject of ongoing debate. It is clear, however, that the 20th century was recovering from the average colder temperatures of the 19th century and earlier.
http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/temperatures-over-previous-centuries-from-various-proxy-records
[Response: Of course temperatures back then were about a degree cooler than *today*, but not because they were a full degree cooler than usual -- rather it's because "today" is almost a full deg.C *warmer* than usual. Did you *really* not figure this out?]
windansea // October 15, 2007 at 9:34 pm |
[Response: What’s the evidence the “grand minima are cyclical”?]
The Gleissberg (87 years) and DeVries (210 years) cycles are fairly well documented, here is a paper that talks about them as well as a possible 1470 year cycle.
http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Nature/Braun_etal_Nature_2005.pdf
george // October 15, 2007 at 11:02 pm |
windansea said: “actually I should say Dr Svalgard uses the method with the best record in prediction, called the precursor method. But I don’t know the actual numbers of success. He will tell you prediction is very tricky but he seems pretty confident at this point. ‘
Tricky indeed.
I don’t know about Svalgard’s specific prediction for cycle 23 in particular, but apparently precursor methods (plural) in general missed the mark on cycle 23 by a wide margin.
“Typical geomagnetic precursor methods predicted Cycle 23 to be a rather
high cycle with a maximum amplitude higher than that of Cycle 22 [~ 160] and much higher than the
observed maximum amplitude of Cycle 23, 120.8 (e.g. Peng et al. 1997; Thompson 1997; Lantos
& Richard 1998; SEC 2001
∗
).
cody // October 16, 2007 at 7:25 am |
Look, there is little point arguing about what the solar cycle will be or what its effects will be. It is, at best, very uncertain.
Surely the point is to be very thankful that a critical natural experiment may be performed. If the solar fraternity are correct, we will see (if the solar cycle works out as they think) a fall in temperatures, and so AGW will be blown sky high. This will be great, not because of any feelings we have about AGW, but because at last things will be settled.
On the other hand, if the solar cycle works out the way the solarians expect, and temps continue to rise, then we know that AGW is much more probable. This too will be great, as it will be one less thing to worry about. Failure to falsify is not as decisive on the upside as falsification is on the downside, but ruling out one of the main competing explanations will be a great step forward.
So, we must all hope that the next cycle is really, really low. If it is, it will give us some real information at last. And lets all agree that this is going to be, if it works out, a critical test.
henry // October 16, 2007 at 11:32 am |
[Response: Of course temperatures back then were about a degree cooler than *today*, but not because they were a full degree cooler than usual — rather it’s because “today” is almost a full deg.C *warmer* than usual. Did you *really* not figure this out?]
Beautiful logic.
Try this reading of it, to see if it makes any more sense:
” Of course temperatures *today* are about a degree warmer than *back then*, but not because they are a full degree warmer than usual — rather it’s because “back then” was almost a full deg.C *colder* than usual.”
Did you *really* not see this from both ends?
John Finn // October 16, 2007 at 1:28 pm |
Re: Tamino’s response to my Maunder Minimum post
There are, I believe, 9 long term (200+ years) temperature records in existence. These include Armagh, De Bilt, a Swedish one and one from the Eastern US (I think) amongst others. All these records show pretty good agreement with each other. That is, the timing and amplitude of their peaks and troughs is similar. Furthermore they also show close agreement with the more recent NH records. Funnily enough – NONE of them has a discernible hockey-stick shape.
The longest of these records is the Central England Temperature (CET) record which extends back to 1659. This means that the record began during the Maunder Minimum (1645-1715) – the nadir if the Little Ice Age. So what does the CET record tells us.
Between the 1660s and 1690s, annual average temperatures fell, from an already historically low point, by ~1 deg C. Average temperature for the 1660s decade was 9.1 deg C; for the 1690s it was 8.1 deg. The 1660-1699 trend is ~ -1.1 deg C.
Following the 1690s, temperatures began to rise again. The 1730s were almost 2 deg C WARMER than the 1690s. The average annual temperature for the 1730s was 9.9 deg C. The contrast between the 2 decades (1690s v 1730s) is stark. EVERY year in the 1690s had an average temperature BELOW 9 deg C (min 7.27 deg) whereas EVERY year in the 1730s had an average temperature ABOVE 9 deg C (max 10.47).
To put this into perspective the 1940s had an average temperature of 9.7 deg C compared to the “globally warmed” 1990s which was 0.4 deg warmer at 10.1 deg C. Note the GISS NH record shows an almost identical (0.38 deg C) difference between the 1940s and 1990s.
There has been a concerted attempt to write the LIA and more particularly the MWP out of history. Fortunately extensive literature exists to show both phenomena were real and widespread.
[Response: Gee -- I though we were talking about *global* warming. Are you seriously going to re-write the temperature history of the world based on ONE record?
And you haven't even done that right. I discussed CET (central England temperature) in my very first blog post; readers should have a look for themselves.
You also fail to mention that the natural variation in temperatures from a SINGLE location is far greater than the natural variation in GLOBAL average temperature. You further fail to mention that the earliest part of the CET record is so much less precise than the later part that before 1722, monthly average CET is only computed to the nearest half a deg.C (except for a very brief span from 1699 to 1706), in fact for much of this time period it's only computed to the nearest full degree! Compare this to the record since late 1722, for which it's computed to the nearest 0.1 deg.C -- five to ten times more precise. Your thesis is really founded on the temperature behavior from a SINGLE LOCATION, for a SINGLE DECADE, from the MOST IMPRECISE part of the record.
The real "concerted effort" has been to exaggerate the MWP and LIA beyond all proportion, based on scanty data and failure to apply proper statistical tests. Nice job.]
John Finn // October 16, 2007 at 1:29 pm |
On solar cycle prediction, Tamino says
“We simply don’t yet have the ability to predict the characteristics of upcoming solar cycles. “
Certainly if you’ve been following NASA pronouncements over the past 18 months or so you might get the impression that no-one has a clue what might happen regarding future solar activity. NASA’s most recent release in April 2007 has actually given us 2 predictions (one high, one low) for Solar Cycle 24. However, there are scientists who seem to have developed more consistent methods for prediction.
For a time I viewed the late Theodor Landscheidt as a sort of mild eccentric, but I’ m becoming increasingly curious (if not yet convinced) by his theories on solar cycles and their effect on climate. I’m sure others have done similar work, but Landscheidt is the only one I know who brings it all together in an easily readable form. In a nutshell, TL seems to have developed precise caclulations which accurately predict the behaviour of the Sun for centuries into the future. Here’s the gist of his paper.
As well as spinning on it’s axis, the Sun also oscillates about the Solar System’s Centre of Mass (SSCM). Depending on it’s position relative to the SSCM, the Sun’s orbital
angular momentum either increases or decreases. The variation can be as much as 25% of the total momentum. Maxima and minima associated with these variations coincide with the Gleissberg cycles, i.e.cycles of extrema of eruption (geomagnetic) activity. Note Gleissberg max/min are not the same as sunspot max/min but cycles with high sunspot activity will generally also have high eruption activity. Gleissberg cycles average ~166 years in length with half-cycles of ~83 years (though they can range between 40 and 120 years). Gleissberg Maxima coincide with warmer periods – Gleissberg minima with cooler periods
“Ah” you might say. “This is all very well but even if we accept that we are experiencing the effects of a Glessiberg maximum now, the climate is much warmer than at any time during the last several hundred years so there must be something else going on”
This is true. But there is another factor which comes into play. That is, the alternating max/min cycles periodically undergo a phase change whereby back to back maxima occur without an intervening minimum. According to TL’s calculations, such a phase change occurred in 1976. This resulted in a Gleissberg maximum in 1984 which immediately following the maximum in 1952 producing a ‘climate optimum’ in the late 20th century.
Has this happened before? According to TL – yes it has. The previous occasion was in 1120 when the Gleissberg max in 1100 was immediately followed by another in 1130. Coincidentally (or not) a time when some people think there was a “Medieval Warm Period”
Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 2:34 pm |
Tamino, is windy really contributing anything? I suspect if you got him his own website and sent him there, science discussion would return to this site.
[Response: My favorite quote from when I was a wee lad learning American history is: "I will not defend what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."]
Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 2:45 pm |
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17460
“… energy from the Sun decreased only slightly, why did temperatures drop so severely in the Northern Hemisphere? Climate scientist Drew Shindell and colleagues at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies tackled that question ….”
Map adapted from Shindell et al., 2001
“the reduced brightness of the Sun during the Maunder Minimum causes global average surface temperature changes of only a few tenths of a degree, in line with the small change in solar output. However, regional cooling over Europe and North America is 5-10 times larger due to a shift in atmospheric winds.”
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/shindell_06/
Hank Roberts // October 16, 2007 at 5:33 pm |
> your right to say it
Well, yeah, no question. Your forum, you decide.
Your site has felt closer to ‘forum discussion’ than ‘chatroom soapbox public square’ or heckling theatre, that’s what has me regretting what seems like more and more whack-a-mole conversations that seem to run from any focus.
Prometheus died months before RPJr shut the doors, because he let it fill up with the claptrap and denial and the science readers quit posting, seemed to me.
But you decide what to approve, and so long as you approve postings I’ll consider they merit serious replies.
windansea // October 16, 2007 at 6:01 pm |
Gee — I though we were talking about *global* warming. Are you seriously going to re-write the temperature history of the world based on ONE record?
funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.
There are proxies from all over the globe showing MWP temps equal to or above the CWP. Cuffey’s Greenland reconstruction/Dahl-Jensen’s Greenland boreholes; Naurzbaev in Siberia, Millar et al in California, Law Dome dO18 isotopes in Antarctica, Pollissar on glaciers in the Venezuelan Alps, higher treelines in Scandinavia, Lamb’s European evidence; the Polar Urals update etc etc.
cody // October 16, 2007 at 7:15 pm |
Surely windandsea is correct in his assessment of the importance of the MWP and LIA? Just the logic of the thing tells you that if you are trying to explain an event that has never occurred before, you can reasonably look for a cause which has never occurred before.
If on the other hand the present warming and cooling has occurred on the same scale before, then we should be looking for something that occurred on both occasions as the cause of both.
Of course, it is logically possible that something other than AGW caused the MWP, and something other than CO2 falls caused the LIA. And that it is AGW and CO2 that is causing the very similar post 1980 warming, and that cutting back on atmospheric levels of CO2 will fix it, though neither operated earlier.
But it is rather unlikely if the two warmings and coolings are of the same general size and nature. It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one outbreak of cholera was due to contaminated water, but another particular one was due to miasma. If they were both recognizably cholera, then surely the starting point is the same cause?
So it is really rather important to establish beyond doubt whether or not the MWP happened, and whether it was comparable to our present warming – however warm that may turn out to be…
Another way of putting it would be: MWP may establish the natural variability of the global climate. I have not come across in the various AGW studies any estimates of what natural variability is. Does anyone have references to such a thing? That is, over a period of (say) 2,000 years, how much variation in average temperature would strike us as normal and unalarming? What is the normal range?
[Response: Using cholera as an example is a poor analogy, it's not a symptom but is itself a cause. Try fever instead: "It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one fever was due to influenza, but another particular one was due to measles." If it were my child with a fever, I'd reject any physician who shouted "flu" at every fever patient.
And windansea is *not* right about the MWP and LIA. They're just not as severe as he wants you to believe.]
Mario // October 16, 2007 at 8:01 pm |
>So, we must all hope that the next cycle is really, really low.
>If it is, it will give us some real information at last.
>And lets all agree that this is going to be, if it works out, a critical test.
Admirable post, right to the point:
in a time in which “scientific” certainties seem to some far less solidly established than other like to assume them to be,
it woud be a true goodly gift, if instead of words and models, we could get a kind of “crucial experiment” between the two main competing candidate theories.
If really next solar cycle will be very weak, perhaps we will end it with some surprises, but almost surely with a more solid understanding and fewer doubts.
henry // October 16, 2007 at 8:11 pm |
“[Response: Using cholera as an example is a poor analogy, it’s not a symptom but is itself a cause. Try fever instead: “It would be a bit like, in medicine, saying that one fever was due to influenza, but another particular one was due to measles.” If it were my child with a fever, I’d reject any physician who shouted “flu” at every fever patient.”
And yet there are those who use the anology that “the earth has a fever”, and shout “increased CO2″ at every change in weather.
windansea // October 16, 2007 at 9:19 pm |
And windansea is *not* right about the MWP and LIA. They’re just not as severe as he wants you to believe.
It’s not my belief, just the fact that there are scores of published studies by scientists in many disciplines which show temps equally extreme to the modern era. What’s next, will the AGW crowd start denying ice ages and hothouse periods? Why would there not be less severe ups and downs like the LIA and MWP?
richard // October 16, 2007 at 9:57 pm |
“..just the fact that there are scores of published studies.. ”
There are not, however, ’scores’ of studies supporting your hypothesis that solar cycles can explain global warming of the past 3-4 decades. There are, by contrast, many peer-reviewed studies showing that man-made GHG are correlated with global temps and that GHG emissions are the best explanation for those temps.
Despite your denials, you have your beliefs and not much else.
luminous beauty // October 17, 2007 at 1:08 am |
“funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.”
Dumber and dumber. MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up. It is just the degree of certainty from 600years BCE that is modified from very likely to plausible.
Let’s see. We can’t be sure of AGW because solar variation might be an alternate explanation, even though there is no significant correlation between solar variation and the temperature record of the last 30 years (a significant falsification. Correlation does not prove causation, but lack of correlation does disprove causation.) Nonetheless, just to convince the denialists, we should wait another 22 years just to see if some 50/50 chance of a reduction in solar radiation does produce some correlation.
But wait. We can postulate some arbitrary lag time of 30-40 years which is good for constant forcing but not transient forcing, just to satisfy the denialists. So we are looking at making hard and fast conclusion some 60 years in the future, just to appease the denialists, even though they are demonstrably wrong on just about everything.
The rope-a-dope strategy.
luminous beauty // October 17, 2007 at 1:51 am |
I meant BPE, not BCE.
windansea // October 17, 2007 at 2:20 am |
Dumber and dumber. MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up. It is just the degree of certainty from 600years BCE that is modified from very likely to plausible.
naughty little Luminous
http://www.climatechangeissues.com/files/PDF/conf05mckitrick.pdf
Hank Roberts // October 17, 2007 at 3:32 am |
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg18925431.400/mg18925431.400-2_752.jpg
http://www.umich.edu/~umfandsf/other/ebooks/Grimm/001.txt
cce // October 17, 2007 at 3:42 am |
From AR4, Chapter 6, page 466
“McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) reported that they were unable to replicate the results of Mann et al. (1998). Wahl and Ammann (2007) showed that this was a consequence of differences in the way McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) had implemented the method of Mann et al. (1998) and that the original reconstruction could be closely duplicated using the original proxy data. McIntyre and McKitrick (2005a,b) raised further concerns about the details of the Mann et al. (1998) method, principally relating to the independent verification of the reconstruction against 19th-century instrumental temperature data and to the extraction of the dominant modes of variability present in a network of western North American tree ring chronologies, using Principal Components Analysis. The latter may have some theoretical foundation, but Wahl and Amman (2006) also show that the impact on the amplitude of the final reconstruction is very small (~0.05°C; for further discussion of these issues see also Huybers, 2005; McIntyre and McKitrick, 2005c,d; von Storch and Zorita, 2005).”
ChrisC // October 17, 2007 at 8:23 am |
A few points:
1. (For Cody). Solar cycle peaks or troughs do not have any effect, either way, on AGW. I’ll make an attempt to spell this out logically:
- Consider a system, X, that is affected by a whole bunch (N) of different factors. Call these factors Yi where i = 1, 2, … N ;
- Thus, by experimenting and doing lots of hard work, we can determine how much factor Yi affects X. For example, if I double Y1, then I reduce some property of X by a half or something like that.
- Suppose that Y1 changes naturally. We know this will effect X, but it does not stop X being effected by Y2, Y3 … and YN.
So claiming that “AGW will be blown sky high” with any changing in solar cycle length is neither logically nor scientifically valid. If X is the global climate system, Y1 is solar output and Y2 is greenhouse gas concentrations, then changing solar output will affect the climate, but in no way implies the fact that changing greenhouse gas concentrations will not continue to affect climate.
2 (Windy).
Please do not talk about southern hemisphere climatology (in particular Australia) when you’ve got no idea what happened.
Our cold June (which was NOT record cold) was caused by three (weather) factors. O
ne factor was a large “cold outbreak”, where a number of cold fronts charged up the east coast. Such events are not unusual (indeed our ski industry relies on them). However, what is known is that the midlattitude cyclones that cause these effects are migrating further south, which is a predicted outcome of climate change.
Secondly, we had a large number of winter cyclones (also known East Coast Lows). These depress temps and are associated with the break down of an El Nino system, which finally occured (after months of dought) early this year.
Thirdly, there was winter rain and cloud in the wet tropics. This happens, although not that often. All of these are weather features.
Also, while we had a cold june, we had, for the most part, a warm winter (see the maps: http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/silo/temp_maps.cgi?variable=maxanom&area=nat&period=3month&time=history&steps=1)
particularly in the south and west, including several regions that were warmest on record, including record early spring temperatures in Sydney.
So please, before citing the climate in one particular place as evidence for a theory, do some reading first.
Actually, that could be said about much of what you post.
henry // October 17, 2007 at 12:02 pm |
“Hank Roberts // Oct 17th 2007 at 3:32 am
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg18925431.400/mg18925431.400-2_752.jpg”
Once again, an interesting point in this chart: that the zero line (average) is based on the 1961-1990 period, for a chart that was shown in 2001, and covers an area from 1000-present.
Why use an average of a 29-year period to show changes over a 1000 year chart?
And before we get the typical “a 30 year period is enough to see a trend or get an average”, then use a 30 year period in the middle of either the MWP or LIA to get an average. See where that puts the centerline.
[Response: First, anomalies are computed based on the average behavior from Jan. 1961 to Dec. 1990, so it's 30 years rather than 29.
There are two reasons to do so. First, it brings all the curves into agreement during the reference period, and for that time frame we know the surface temperature from thermometer measurements. Second, it removes the annual cycle variations (this is northern hemisphere temperature, so it's hotter in summer and colder in winter).
Choosing a different time period for the "reference" will have absolutely no impact on the trends. It will move the curves up or down as a whole without changing their shape, the differences between any two years in a single record will be unaffected. And the point of these studies is to determine the temperature *changes* over time; the location of the "zero point" is not the issue.]
Hank Roberts // October 17, 2007 at 2:46 pm |
Yep.
So many people wish the world worked as the stories tell us it did “In olden times when wishing still helped one ….”
henry // October 17, 2007 at 3:35 pm |
“[Response: First, anomalies are computed based on the average behavior from Jan. 1961 to Dec. 1990, so it’s 30 years rather than 29.
There are two reasons to do so. First, it brings all the curves into agreement during the reference period, and for that time frame we know the surface temperature from thermometer measurements. Second, it removes the annual cycle variations (this is northern hemisphere temperature, so it’s hotter in summer and colder in winter).
Choosing a different time period for the “reference” will have absolutely no impact on the trends. It will move the curves up or down as a whole without changing their shape, the differences between any two years in a single record will be unaffected. And the point of these studies is to determine the temperature *changes* over time; the location of the “zero point” is not the issue.]”
First. I agree, the trend lines will not change.
Second. If we know the temps for the time between 1969 – 1990, then surely we know the temps for the period 1976 – 2006 (and the closer we get to present, the more accurate the measurements). Would also filter out annual cycle variations.
Third. My continuing point. The charts show the amount the current temps are over average. If the center line (zero, average, whatever) goes up, IT GIVES THE APPEARANCE OF LOWER MAXIMUMS, and makes the old records appear to be lower (colder) than they are now.
Stop and think. If the current max is .6, and the average line goes up .1, the trend hasn’t changed, but we’re not as far above average as we were before.
So much of the discussion in the press is centered around the “we’ve gone up .6 degrees above the average”. If the chart’s zero changes, then it becomes “we’ve only gone up .5 degrees, not the .6 we thought”. True, we can argue that the trend hasn’t changed, but it would *sound* less severe.
If anyone doubts it, PLEASE do two charts, using the same data, but use a different 30-year average. Then show BOTH charts to see what I mean.
J // October 17, 2007 at 4:37 pm |
henry, I hate to say this but you’re still confused.
It doesn’t matter whether you calculate the anomalies with respect to a period of 1901-1930, 1961-1990, or a projected 2071-2100.
In one case, you’ve got warming from 0 to 1 unit, in another, from -0.5 to +0.5 units, and in the third from -3 to -2 units.
They’re all the same. 1 unit of warming per however-long-the-record is. Only the arbitrary zero-line is different.
You seem to be strangely focused on how the numbers “sound,” but I don’t think anyone really cares about that.
henry // October 17, 2007 at 5:55 pm |
Forgive me. My field is electronics. In order for me to get an accurate measurement, I must know what the reference is.
And I agree: 1 unit of rise (the “peak-to-peak” value of AC) will be the same whatever the center reference is.
But if I measure DC, that ground (reference) better be accurate. A .6v measurement that is off by plus/minus .2V isn’t very accurate.
The charts in question are showing the “anomaly”, or the value the reading is above or below the reference (in DC either Pos or Neg voltages).
So lets use your numbers.
Using HadCRU data for 1901 – 1930, the average anomaly is minus .39
For the period 1961 – 1990, the average anomaly is minus .03.
Since I can’t tell the future, lets use 1977 – 2006. That average anomaly is plus .21.
Just using quick numbers (and remember, I’m in electronics, not statistics), it appears we’re only .4 degree above the reference line using the last 30 years numbers.
I’m not saying that warming hasn’t taken place, or disputing the rate of rise, or denying that CO2 is changing the temps.
But if that chart is going to tell me how much temps have risen in the last 1000 years, give me an up-to-date reference.
P.S. Using HadCRU again, the average anomaly for the entire record they have (1850 – 2006) is minus .18.
george // October 17, 2007 at 7:21 pm |
Using precursor methods, Hathaway (who is on the NASA panel for predicting cycle 24) was completely wrong on cycle 23, not only with regard to the sunspot count at max (off by 50, or about 40%), but also with regard to the time of next minimum (off by over a year).
New sunspot cycle to be bigger than average
April 13, 1998:
“Based on the various precursor techniques, Hathaway, Wilson, and Reichmann predict that Cycle 23 will rise faster than normal to its peak, attaining maximum amplitude sometime during the latter half of 1999 to the first half of 2000, and that it will measure about 170 plus or minus 20 units (yearly sunspot number). They expect Cycle 23 to continue until sometime in 2006 when the next cycle, Cycle 24, should begin.’
[actual turned out to be 120 with min in March 2008+- 6 months ]
“The consensus [among solar physicists] is that this cycle will be above average in size and probably a fast riser,” [Robert] Wilson said.
“Still, with almost 250 years of observations – of which only the last 150 years are considered truly reliable- predictions are akin to the Farmer’s Almanac, Hathaway said.
“There’s no real physics involved,” he explained. “It’s all statistical inferences.” (Hathaway)
////end quote
One such prediction method is given
here
“Hathaway and colleague Bob Wilson, both working at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center, believe they’ve found a simple way to predict the date of the next solar minimum. “We examined data from the last 8 solar cycles and discovered that Solar Min follows the first spotless day after Solar Max by 34 months,” explains Hathaway.
“The most recent solar maximum was in late 2000. The first spotless day after that was Jan 28, 2004. So, using Hathaway and Wilson’s simple rule, solar minimum should arrive in late 2006. That’s about a year earlier than previously thought.”
////end quote
and, as it turns out, Hathaway’s [incorrect] prediction was about a year before the actual min.
I did not mean to pick on Hathaway here, just wanted to illustrate a point. The more I look into this, the more convinced I become that Tamino is right that the state of the “science” of predicting future solar sunspot numbers at max is not particularly good.
tamino // October 17, 2007 at 7:38 pm |
I think another comment is in order here. George is right, the “state of the science” of solar cycle prediction is not very good. But making such predictions — wrong or right — is part of the process of science. Correlations are tested, precursors are sought, physical models are devised.
They’re probably all wrong! But even if they are, proposals represent exploration of the possibilities. And those researchers who are bold enough to put their predictions in print before the fact are poised to make a strong case if they turn out to be right. If they turn out to be wrong, they can join the ranks of the many who have tried but not yet succeeded.
It’s somewhat akin to attempting to be the first person to climb Mt. Everest. Even if you don’t make it to the top you just might learn something, and you’ve helped pave the way for those who follow.
People tend to think of scientific research as restricted to the statement of identifiable truth. This is a serious misconception! Much of published research is exploratory contemplation of the possibilities, so that other researchers can ponder the merits of the arguments and prepare to test the forecasts that result. And that’s one of the ways science marches forward. You gotta crawl before you walk, and the first “baby steps” usually involve a lot of falling down.
J // October 17, 2007 at 7:40 pm |
henry —
Whether the T anomaly is above, below, or right on what you are calling the “reference line” only matters if there’s some kind of physical significance to that line. In this case, the reference is arbitrary. So, while you bold-face the “plus” and “minus” signs, that’s not really relevant except in some kind of trivial psychological sense. It’s not meaningful in either a statistical or an earth-system-science way.
I think the clue to your difficulty lies in this sentence: “But if that chart is going to tell me how much temps have risen in the last 1000 years, give me an up-to-date reference.”
It sounds like what you’re really saying is that you want to know how today’s temperatures compare to a very-long-term average. If we had ironclad paleoclimate data sufficient to construct a global mean temperature time-series for the past millennium, that’d be nice. Unfortunately, the further back you go, the lower the confidence in the reconstructions.
But that problem is irrelevant to the question of what baseline you choose for measuring a temperature anomaly. Saying that it’s warmer now than it was in 1650, or saying that it was colder in 1650 than it is now, are just two ways of saying the same thing.
Steve Bloom // October 17, 2007 at 11:15 pm |
This is amusing:
Over at the Nature Climate Feedback blog, out old friend Timo Hameranta wrote:
” “The prize committee declared Al Gore “one of the world’s leading environmentalist politicians” and said the IPCC had “created an ever-broader informed consensus about the connection between human activities and global warming”.
“Well, Al Gore is politician, but the IPCC’s arguments on human CO2 emissions’ decisive role are strictly scientifically premature and dubious, at least.
“From the vast literature of alternative explanations please see e.g.
“Usoskin, Ilya G., Sami K. Solanki, and G.A. Kovaltsov, 2007. Grand minima and maxima of solar activity: new observational constraints. Astronomy & Astrophysics Vol. 471, No 1, pp. 303-307, August III 2007, online”
Of course Timo’s argument is a non sequitur, but out of curiosity I had a look at the abstract:
“Grand minima and maxima of solar activity: new observational constraints
“I. G. Usoskin, S. K. Solanki, and G. A. Kovaltsov
“Aims. Using a reconstruction of sunspot numbers stretching over multiple millennia, we analyze the statistics of the occurrence of grand minima and maxima and set new observational constraints on long-term solar and stellar dynamo models.
“Methods. We present an updated reconstruction of sunspot number over multiple millennia, from 14C data by means of a physics-based model, using an updated model of the evolution of the solar open magnetic flux. A list of grand minima and maxima of solar activity is presented for the Holocene (since 9500 BC) and the statistics of both the length of individual events as well as the waiting time between them are analyzed.
“Results. The occurrence of grand minima/maxima is driven not by long-term cyclic variability, but by a stochastic/chaotic process. The waiting time distribution of the occurrence of grand minima/maxima deviates from an exponential distribution, implying that these events tend to cluster together with long event-free periods between the clusters. Two different types of grand minima are observed: short (30-90 years) minima of Maunder type and long (>110 years) minima of Spörer type, implying that a deterministic behaviour of the dynamo during a grand minimum defines its length. The duration of grand maxima follows an exponential distribution, suggesting that the duration of a grand maximum is determined by a random process.
“Conclusions. These results set new observational constraints upon the long-term behaviour of the solar dynamo.”
I wasn’t able to see the paper itself since it’s pay-walled, but the abstract itself doesn’t seem to do much for denialism. In fact, on its face it seems to trash the whole idea of long-term predictability of solar minima and maxima.
henry // October 18, 2007 at 4:57 am |
“Whether the T anomaly is above, below, or right on what you are calling the “reference line” only matters if there’s some kind of physical significance to that line. In this case, the reference is arbitrary. So, while you bold-face the “plus” and “minus” signs, that’s not really relevant except in some kind of trivial psychological sense. It’s not meaningful in either a statistical or an earth-system-science way.”
Then all this chart is telling me is that current temps are some arbitrary value above a totally irrelevent center line.
Got it.
Thanks.
John Cook // October 18, 2007 at 10:08 am |
Steve, that’s an interesting paper. A quick google finds the full paper at http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0385v1.pdf – the conclusion is interesting:
The occurrence of grand minima/maxima is not a result of long-term cyclic variations but is defined by stochastic/chaotic processes. This casts significant doubts on attempts of a long-term prediction of solar activity using multi-periodic analyses.
and later…
The duration of grand maxima follows an exponential distribution, in accord with the earlier finding of Solanki et al. (2004). This indicates that leaving a grand maximum is a random process, in contrast to the grand minimum case.
My reading of this is we’ve been in a grand maxima for the last half century but basically, we don’t know when the hell it’s going to end.
J // October 18, 2007 at 12:25 pm |
henry wrote: “Then all this chart is telling me is that current temps are some arbitrary value above a totally irrelevent center line.”
No. It’s telling you that they are x units above where they were in 1900, and that they have been rising at a rate of y units per decade for the past 30+ years.
That information is independent of what arbitrary line you choose as “normal”.
It’s like saying that a temperature rose from 290 to 292 K, versus saying that it rose from 17 to 19 degrees C. Both mean exactly the same thing, despite the fact that the numbers in the first case look a lot bigger.
I’m honestly not trying to be insulting, but if you have trouble understanding this concept, there is no way you’re going to be able to grasp climate change science in any kind of quantitative way.
henry // October 18, 2007 at 2:50 pm |
One more time.
” It’s telling you that they are x units above where they were in 1900, and that they have been rising at a rate of y units per decade for the past 30+ years. ”
Got that. Understand that. Agree with that. Rate of rise/fall is independent of center line, no matter what .
“That information is independent of what arbitrary line you choose as “normal”.”
By placing a center line, you are , by default, stating a “normal” value, with deviations or anomalies based on that.
“It’s like saying that a temperature rose from 290 to 292 K, versus saying that it rose from 17 to 19 degrees C. Both mean exactly the same thing, despite the fact that the numbers in the first case look a lot bigger.”
Then state it like that. Let the people see that 30 years ago, the world temp was 17C, and now it’s at 17.6C. Simple. No problem.
“I’m honestly not trying to be insulting, but if you have trouble understanding this concept, there is no way you’re going to be able to grasp climate change science in any kind of quantitative way.”
Not insulted. But since I’m ex-USAF, I’ll try one more analogy, then let it rest.
Take two aircraft, flying at 6000 ft. In order to land, they might decend at 500 ft/sec (rate of change). This means they should both reach sea level in 12 sec (max/min). Those values don’t change.
Say the FAA just set a “zero” line at 3000 ft, based on average airport altitudes 20 years ago, and list Denver at x ft above the reference, and Vegas as y ft below the reference.
Two years later, they reset the “zero” to 2500. Denver is now x+500, and Vegas is now y-500.
Denver has just gotten 500 ft higher than 22 years ago, while Vegas has sunk 500 ft.
Same thing. Reference values DO matter…
windansea // October 18, 2007 at 4:17 pm |
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0385v1.pdf
hmmm, those graphs in figure 1 look familiar, kind of like a hockey stick, it appears this paper shows that the sun has been more actice, more bright, and burning hotter than at any time in the last 10,000 years.
I wasn’t able to see the paper itself since it’s pay-walled, but the abstract itself doesn’t seem to do much for denialism. In fact, on its face it seems to trash the whole idea of long-term predictability of solar minima and maxima.
as usual you are confused Steve. Solar loons like myself are encouraged by this paper. Also, our ability to predict solar cycle strengths has nothing to do with my scepticism re AGW theories.
oops, I was wrong above, it looks like the sun was a bit more hot 9000 years ago (see figure 3)
The Sun spends around 3/4 of the time at moderate magnetic activity levels (averaged over 10 years). The remainder of the time is spent in the state of a grand minimum (about 17%) or a grand maximum (9% or 22%
for the SN-L or SN-S series, respectively). The solar activity during modern times corresponds to the grand maximum state.
Hank Roberts // October 18, 2007 at 6:07 pm |
> Denver has just gotten 500 ft higher than 22
> years ago, while Vegas has sunk 500 ft.
>
> Same thing.
Er, no. That did not happen.
Remember converting to metric? Sizes did’t change. Your shoes are still the same size, just the little numbers printed inside are different.
> Reference values DO matter…
Yes. The nice thing about standards is that we have so many of them. You could hit Mars by mistake if you confuse metric and English units — it’s been done.
Keeping everything set at an old standard reference doesn’t solve the problem. People have to look these things up to understand them.
henry // October 18, 2007 at 7:49 pm |
Metric or english, k/c/f degrees, doesn’t matter.
If the mercury in a thermometer goes up 1 inch for each 10 degrees, then what effect would raising the entire scale by 1/2 inch have on the mercury reaction? None.
But does that 1 inch rise equal a 10 degree range above zero, or 10 degrees below zero? Maybe it’s split, -8/+2.
Reference matters.
If reference didn’t matter, why do we even bother calibrating our instruments? As long as we can chart the rate of change over time, that’s what’s most important, not whether we’re .6 degrees above a 20-year-old reference.
luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 12:13 am |
Henry,
The obvious reference for temperature is 0K. That would leave a big blank space on the bottom of our graphs. Sometimes it is more convenient to refer to an arbitrary standard for the purposes of comparison. If you want to survey a piece of ground you have to start from a single point. Any point will do.
Other than that, I fail to see your point.
John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 12:26 am |
windansea, if you haven’t read it already, I suggest reading Usoskin 2005 (coauthored by Solanki, similar authors to the Usoskin 2007 paper) where they comment that the solar trend is rather “hockey stick-like” and is burning hotter this century than anytime over the past 11,500 years but also mention the major point that is often neglected in the whole sun/global warming debate – the correlation between sun and temperature ends in the mid 70’s:
“During these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source”
windansea // October 19, 2007 at 12:46 am |
During these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source”
yes I’m familiar with that one as well, but the solar cycles in the last 50 years are still part of a group that forms the highest grand maxima in thousands of years, it may not show a trend (Dr Wilson’s ACRIM data says it still is a slight trend upward measuring the minima) but the sun is still in a very hot phase, double what it was pre 1900. The total solar magnet field is 5-10 times stronger than during the Maunder, so if the relation of this to cloud formation is correct, this is affecting planetary albedo in a large way. We don’t really have a handle on the many proposed solar forcings besides TSI to rule out the sun at this point.
John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 1:46 am |
Whether you use ACRIM or PMOD, the difference is a very slight upward trend or a slight downward trend or possibly no trend at all. That’s the whole point – TSI is showing very little trend while temperature is rising. TSI and magnetic fields are stronger now than in the past but they’re not showing the rising trend that would be required to explain current warming.
TSI is a good proxy for other solar forcings which makes sense as the solar magnetic field is directly related to TSI as well as how much cosmic radiation gets through to earth. This is why all the solar forcings – magnetic field, TSI, cosmic rays all correlate with temperatures in the past but break down in the 70’s when the modern global warming trend began. So when you talk about low solar activity during the Maunder and how closely the sun correlates to climate in the past, it only further highlights the lack of correlation in recent decades.
windansea // October 19, 2007 at 5:02 am |
so basically you are saying solar forcings must march in lockstep with temp trends to be viable? CO2 can lag behind temps for 100s of years, or cause them instantaneously? There are no heat storage systems on the planet?
it only further highlights the lack of correlation in recent decades.
another quote from Usokin
The level of solar activity also affects the Sun’s radiative output [2], which in turn may influence the Earth’s climate [3]. ,However, any such influence takes place on time scales longer than the solar cycle, so that a statistically significant comparison with paleoclimatic records requires a long time series of solar activity data.
John Cook // October 19, 2007 at 12:49 pm |
What I’m saying is if solar activity correlates closely with temperature, then you have a good argument that the sun affects climate. But if the correlation breaks down, then you’d have to conclude some other forcing is imposing itself upon the climate. Which is exactly what Usoskin 2005 concludes.
In the past, CO2 has lagged temperature by up to 1000 years. But I’ve never said CO2 has been the major driver of climate in the past. In fact, the major “initiator” of deglaciation periods is milankovitch cycles warming the south, which are then amplified and spread from the south to the tropics and northern hemisphere by the southern oceans degassing CO2.
Your quote about time scales is spot on – Usoskin 2005 looks at long term trends greater than the 11 year cycle. The correlation he finds is by comparing long term trends in solar and temperature. You’re also right about heat storage systems – Usoskin 2005 finds the correlation between sun and temp is highest when temp lags solar activity by 10 years. He chalks it off to the thermal inertia of the ocean. It’s a great paper, rich in content.
luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 2:27 pm |
windy,
There is no significant correlation between solar cycles and temperature for the last thirty years.
None. Nada. Zilch. Zip.
If the sun were mostly responsible, there would be some immediate (within two years or a decade) correlation with the sunspot cycle, just like there was before AGW became the dominant forcing, regardless of how much energy might be stored in the oceans.
[Response: I disagree. The thermal inertia of the climate system (mostly the oceans) makes the system act like a "low-pass filter," meaning that the response to oscillating forces (like the solar cycle) will be suppressed. The faster the cycle, the more suppressed. This could make the response to the solar cycle too small to register statistical significance, but wouldn't prevent a strong response to long-timescale changes in solar forcing.
The real problem with solar explaining modern warming is that due to stability in solar output for 50 years or so, it would have to be a "delayed" response due to thermal inertia. But if that were the case, we'd see temperature assymptotically approaching its new equilibrium, when in fact temperature has been climbing steadily.]
Steve Bloom // October 19, 2007 at 2:41 pm |
Actually you’re starting to seem seen like more of a solar ostrich, windy. While it’s true that the oceans will cause a lag for atmospheric heat content changes from any source, the behavior of the atmosphere itself is quite different. Solar changes are essentially instantaneous. The persistent GHGs like CO2 also have an instantaneous effect, but it’s very slight in the quantities we’re experiencing; their power is in how that effect adds up over a long period of time. Another big difference is that GHGs are well-mixed in the atmosphere, and so their influence doesn’t wax and wane with the seasons or the diurnal cycle. There are yet other differences, but the upshot is that the signatures of solar and GHGs are quite different and are very much prone to detection.
If solar influences are the dominant effect in the Holocene, we would expect to see climate track it. The problem is that it doesn’t. Have a look at the graphs on pages three and four of the new study. Other than the current maximum and an apparent correlation of the recent minimum with the LIA (I say apparent because on a global basis the LIA wasn’t very impressive), climate and solar influences don’t line up very well. Notice in particular the absence of any indication of an MWP, although the more important failure is with respect to the Holocene thermal maximum.
J // October 19, 2007 at 4:10 pm |
henry:
On the main issue, I give up. I and others have tried explaining this a lot of different ways, and at this point I guess we’ll just have to disagree.
But I wanted to make a note about this:
“Then state it like that. Let the people see that 30 years ago, the world temp was 17C, and now it’s at 17.6C. Simple. No problem.”
Well, there is a problem. It’s easier to measure the anomaly than the absolute temperature of the whole planet. There are a number of reasons for this. First of all, anomalies are spatially autocorrelated over a relatively large distance (1000 km?) whereas absolute temperatures can vary over distances < 1 km. Secondly, measuring only anomalies lets you avoid some of the thornier instrumental calibration problems. There are probably other reasons as well.
Think of it this way. If you want to know which of two people is taller, it’s a lot easier to simply stand them next to each other and measure the difference. It would be a lot harder — and less accurate — to figure out the absolute elevation of the top of person A’s head above sea level, repeat the process for person B, and then subtract.
[Response: NASA GISS estimates that the absolute temperature corresponding to 0.0 anomaly in their time series is 14 deg.C, so anomaly 0 is 14 deg.C, anomaly 1 is 15 deg.C, etc. But as you say, the estimate of the "zero point" is less precise than the estimated anomaly.]
luminous beauty // October 19, 2007 at 5:02 pm |
tamino,
I take your point, but it would seem to me, given the relatively small changes in amplitude and frequency of the solar cycle, that any long term accumulation of ocean tempered energy would show a gradual flattening of short cycle response, and not a relatively sudden regime change. Something has to be boosting the gain on your low pass filter and ocean inertia has… well… inertia.
Mario // October 19, 2007 at 6:14 pm |
> The real problem with solar explaining modern warming
> is that due to stability in solar output for 50 years or so,
> it would have to be a “delayed” response due to thermal inertia.
> But if that were the case, we’d see temperature assymptotically
> approaching its new equilibrium,
> when in fact temperature has been climbing steadily.
This is totally correct when in the model the relevant factors are two: “sun-output-increase” and “thermal inertia”.
But if we add a third one: a temporary, but relevant, cooling factor (say sulfate aerosols…) acting in the 1940-1980 period, I suppose that – inventing the right figures – the model could be brought to track well the known XX century temperature record…
I’m not saying I believe this to be the correct explanation,
but that until it and its possibile variations are somehow ruled out, it is impossible to refute the Sun theories with the far too simple logic proposed.
Steve Bloom // October 19, 2007 at 7:45 pm |
Tamino, I think an implied part of lb’s aregument is that if solar forcing was really large enough to be the main thing going on then the effect in the atmosphere would be obvious. Of course it’s a subtle effect and so is not obvious.
Chris O'Neill // October 20, 2007 at 2:27 am |
windansea: “funny you should object since the original hockey stick was based on a single stand of bristlecones.”
What incredible ignorance. The original (MBH98) hockey stick that goes back to AD 1400 was based on a couple more proxies than the MBH99 hockey stick that goes back to AD 1000. The proxies of the MBH99 hockey stick are shown in table 1 of MBH99 and are:
North America PC#1 Tree ring width
North America PC#2 Tree ring width
North America PC#3 Tree ring width
Fennoscandia Tree ring density
Polar Urals Tree ring width
Tasmania Tree ring width
N. Patagonia Tree ring width
Morocco Tree ring width
France Tree ring width
Greenland stacked core ice core delta O18
Quelccaya (2) ice core delta O18
Quelccaya (2) ice accumulation
“single stand of bristlecones”
Yeah, sure.
John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 8:58 am |
Luminous B says
“MBH98, etc. are multi-proxy reconstructions. Even without the bristlecone data the hockey stick holds up”
No. The BP data is key to the h-s shape. The reason being :-
It is perfectly normal to ‘normalise’ data prior to it’s use in statistical analysis. By convention, this involves subtracting the mean of the data set and dividing by the standard deviation resulting in the normalised data set with mean=0; sd =1; This is particularly useful if several data sets of different measurement units are involved in the analysis. Tree ring data is almost always archived in it’s normalised form. It’s worth noting, though, that normalising the data in the standard way would leave the data unchanged.
Mann decided to re-normalise the data but rather than using the mean of the entire data series he used the mean for the period 1902-1980. This had the effect of inflating the variance of any data set which exhibited anomalous 20th century growth – and to promote the data set as the most influential in the analysis. In the case of the Mann study the data set formed the first principle component (PC1) in the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) .
The infamous Bristlecone Pines experienced anomalous 20th century ring growth and the rest, as they say, is history. The reason for the growth is not clear but it does NOT appear to be temperature-related.
I could go on here about the use of tree rings and proxies, in general and how it’s simply nonsense to suggest that these methods can provide any precision or accuracy regarding the magnitude of past climate fluctuations. I’m not going to, though – lazy, you see. But it is worth remembering that recent tree ring data doesn’t even come close to emulating recent surface temperature observations. So take your pick
(i) Either the proxy reconstructions are total garbage. (highly likely)
(ii) Or the surface temperature record is wrong.
PS Sorry, windandsea, if I appear to be stealing your thunder. I’ve just noticed that I’ve repeated some of your points.
John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 9:00 am |
Part of Tamino’s response to my earlier post
“Your thesis is really founded on the temperature behavior from a SINGLE LOCATION, for a SINGLE DECADE, from the MOST IMPRECISE part of the record.”
Of course – how silly of me. Not as silly, though, as ‘99% of climate scientists’ who – between 1998 and around 2005 – based their understanding of climate over the previous 1000 years on a single cluster of bristlecone pine trees.
In my defence, I think I made it clear that the CET closely tracks the other 8 long-term records which closely track the modern surface temperature record. It ‘s not unreasonable, therefore, to suppose that the CET is a reasonable proxy for the NH, in general, during the 17th century.
Do you mean precision or accuracy? Either way I find it strange that the readings show a consistently strong cooling bias from mid-1600s onwards – and a remarkable coincidence that this occurs exactly at the time of the maunder minimum. Must be down to the 17th century climate change “deniers”.
I’d certainly trust the CET record – even before 1700 – above most of the other records around the world. Who maintains the weather stations in the war-torn parts of the developing world? During WWII, were the Poles or the Russians worrying about ensuring daily temperature reading were precise to 0.1 deg? What about WW1 or the Russian revolution? Don’t put too much trust in the specified precision of temperature records.
Of course I could dig out all the studies that show the LIA (and MWP) was a period of significant climate change pretty much everywhere- but this takes time and effort and I’m not the most industrious sort.
John Finn // October 20, 2007 at 9:04 am |
Richard says
“There are, by contrast, many peer-reviewed studies showing that man-made GHG are correlated with global temps and that GHG emissions are the best explanation for those temps.”
Richard
Read those studies. I’ll guarantee they’re either (i) studies where the results are based on models or (ii) so-called ‘detection and attribution’ studies which effectively conclude that “we can’t think of anything else that might have caused it”.
Either way there are erroneous (I believe) assumptions about solar forcing (under-estimated) and aerosols (over-estimated). Aerosols are just a huge fudge factor to explain inconvenient periods like mid-20th century cooling. There’s actually no evidence whatsoever that aerosols have any effect on global climate – and have only a minor one at local level.
If you want proof – simply check the temperature records at the most industrialised locations . Remember the effect of aerosols is “REGIONALLY SPECIFIC”.
Leif Svalgaard // October 20, 2007 at 8:35 pm |
I noticed several comments and questions around my work in prediction of solar cycle strength (Rmax). The method that I use was proposed by me and several colleagues at Stanford back in 1978. It uses as the precursor the polar fields of the sun. The track record so far is: cycle 21 15% off, cycle 22 7% off, cycle 23 14% off. Average 12% off. This has to be seen in the context of a variation of Rmax by a factor of 4 within the last 300 years (although simple persistence plays a role too). The ‘other’ popular precursor method uses geomagnetic activity. Geomagnetic activity depends on the strength of the sun’s magnetic field and on the speed of the solar wind (which in turn may depend of solar magnetics – although we don’t really know), so geomagnetic activity [GMA] is also some kind of (complicated) proxy for the sun’s magnetic field and hence ultimately for the sun’s polar magnetic fields [SPF] that spill out into interplanetary space. Now, GMA is a poorer predictor than SPF because of this indirection.
The NASA panel did not use SPF last time around for cycle 23, but had decided that GMA was better, partly because the various solar observatories disagreed as what SPF was during the minimum prior to cycle 23. [This problem has since been resolved in favor of adopting the SPF measured at the Wilcox Solar Observatory since 1976 as a well-calibrated standard - at least on a relative scale).
We saw that GMA did not do such a good job after all for cycle 23 and there are reasons to believe that it will also fail this time. But why use a proxy when you have the real thing? The SPF is now the lowest ever measured since measurements began around 1952, and that is reason for my predicting a low cycle.
[Response: Thanks for setting the record straight.]
windansea // October 20, 2007 at 9:30 pm |
Thanks Leif for clearing that up, I knew I had read your precursor method had a good track record, but didn’t know how to quantify it.
Do you have a prediction for cycle 25? Hathaway seems to think it will be very low, possible on a centennial scale.
windansea // October 20, 2007 at 9:43 pm |
PS Tamino, just for the record, I never said cycle 24 will be a maunder minimum, just that Dr Svalgard predicted the lowest cycle in 100 years. I did say that there are predictions that cycle 25 would be the lowest in several 100 years, possible maunder like.
Russ // October 21, 2007 at 2:44 am |
Chris, if I understand Steve McIntyre’s analysis the “hockey stick” goes away when the bristlecones are removed from the data set. Thus the temperature rise is the result of as single set of bristlecones.
Leif Svalgaard // October 21, 2007 at 3:30 am |
Given a polar field (more correctly a poloidal field) dynamo theory can eventually predict the strength of a cycle, but the creation of the ‘next’ polar field for the next cycle is more of a random process and probably not predictable, so prediction two or more cycles ahead might not be possible. This conclusion is based on the assumption that the sun’s ‘magnetic memory’ is short (~5-10 yrs). If the memory time is longer (~20 or more yrs) then prediction of cycle 25 may be possible. Cycles may come in ’supercycles’ of ~100, ~200, 2300(?) years that may roughly determine the ‘envelope’ of cycles. We have no real theory for these supercycles and don’t know what might cause them, so speculation has free reign. The same goes for ‘Grand’ minima and maxima. We do not know if a Maunder-type minimum is right around the corner, but can also not rule it out. Should coming solar activity be low and the climate get colder, that might be an indication of a connection, but we do not at this point know if such a connection exists or not. Sadly, if solar activity goes down and the temperature goes up, people will jump to the conclusion that the discrepancy is due to human activity, justified or not.
As I have said elsewhere it is wrong to say that we ‘have no clue’ to solar cycle prediction. It is rather the opposite, we have definite ideas, but cannot (yet) decide which way to go. It is like Buridan’s ass that has enough hay, but starves because it cannot decide from which bale to eat.
Chris O'Neill // October 21, 2007 at 4:04 am |
“if I understand Steve McIntyre’s analysis the “hockey stick” goes away when the bristlecones are removed from the data set.”
The bristlecones are only needed to make the reconstruction reliable before 1428 AD. After 1428 AD you can throw out the bristlecones and still reliably get the same hockeystick as you get with the bristlecones included. What McIntyre is effectively saying is that the bristlecones before 1428 AD behaved differently from the bristlecones just after after 1428 AD when there is just no evidence for this belief.
Chris O'Neill // October 21, 2007 at 4:27 am |
“Mann decided to re-normalise the data but rather than using the mean of the entire data series he used the mean for the period 1902-1980. This had the effect of inflating the variance of any data set which exhibited anomalous 20th century growth – and to promote the data set as the most influential in the analysis.”
Regardless of how influential it may be, the fact remains that the bristlecone data makes very little difference to reconstructions made for after 1450 AD (as Wahl and Ammann showed). If it is as influential as some suggest, how do people explain the fact that it makes very little difference to the hockey stick shape after 1450 AD? If it has all the influence claimed for it, why doesn’t this influence show up when it is added to reconstructions made for after 1450 AD. The hockey stick elbow occurs around 1900 AD, not 1450 AD.
Hank Roberts // October 21, 2007 at 5:02 am |
http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png
“Surface temperature reconstructions for periods prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that climatic warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence” — National Academy of Sciences Report June 22, 2006
EliRabett // October 21, 2007 at 1:06 pm |
Svalgaard’s statement:
“Sadly, if solar activity goes down and the temperature goes up, people will jump to the conclusion that the discrepancy is due to human activity, justified or not.”
assumes a vacuum. First, we have a good understanding of greenhouse gas forcing and measurements of greenhouse gas concentrations as well as fluxes. Second, we have direct measurement of solar forcing above the atmosphere.
As Svalgaard points out, we don’t have a good enough understanding of solar dynamics to predict solar cycles, but we do have a number of proposals which predict many different things. Unfortunately for Buridan’s ass, the situation is not that he has to pick between a piles of hay, but he has to decide which one of several black boxes in his stall contain the hay and could easily be trying to eat from an empty one.
If the effects of greenhouse gas forcing and observed solar forcing is sufficient to drive observed warming, then, why yes we DO have good reason to believe that the warming is driven by greenhouse gas increases especially given that we also have accounted for other factors. Any claim that this this would not be the case is obfustication.
Sadly, obfustication is a common tactic.
nanny_govt_sucks // October 21, 2007 at 5:50 pm |
So, are you saying that MBH98 is not robust to the presence or absence of these dendroclimatic indicators (ref.: MBH98 and Mann et al.[2000])?
george // October 21, 2007 at 5:59 pm |
Thanks Dr. Svalgaard for setting the record straight regarding your own predictions.
I agree that your predictions on cycles 21, 22, and 23 are quite good.
But my next question is how do I decide between your next prediction (for cycle 24) and this one made by scientists at National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR)., which predicts cycle 24 will be 30-50% stronger than cycle 23.
NCAR’s “model simulated the strength of the past eight solar cycles with more than 98% accuracy.”
Granted, reproducing past cycles is not the same as forecasting future ones, but if a model is based on physics (as theirs seems to be), it is meaningful nonetheless.
In fact, a correct model must reproduce past cycles (if the data needed for the prediction is available, of course, which it may not be for some prediction methods)
[Response: A few comments are in order. First, it's not just the case that "reproducing past cycles is not the same as forecasting future ones." They are *vastly* different, not just epistomologically, but mathematically as well! Second, as far as I know it's not possible to subject Dr. Svalgaard's method to the same test (the past eight solar cycles) because we we don't have the poloidal field data with which to compute it.
I'm not saying Svalgaard is right and NCAR wrong (I think the jury is still out), or that post-diction is worthless (it surely isn't) -- but I do caution against drawing too strong a conclusion from successful post-diction, especially for a subject with so much uncertainty and clearly an utter absence of concensus in the research community.
And I too would love to know Dr. Svalgaard's opinion on the matter!]
Leif Svalgaard // October 21, 2007 at 9:13 pm |
To Eli:
“Sadly, obfustication is a common tactic.”
Serious scientists do not apply “tactics” and to suggest “tactics” is involved is not very nice. [maybe the moderator "failed" a little bit here...]
And I was not trying to obfuscate.
Rather to clarify. If we omit the cases of
no changes, there are four possibilities for
the coming cycle(s) [S=sun, T=temp]:
1. S up, T up => Anthropogenic
2. S up, T down => Random climate change (?)
3. S down, T up => Anthropogenic
4. S down, T down => Random climate change (?)
After the “=>” I have tried to indicate what I think many (most?) people would say [personally I have no stake in any of this, except that I think global warming is good for us - coming from a cold country :-)]. I invite people here to indicate what THEY would say in each case. The “sadly” was directed towards that it apparently doesn’t matter what the sun does, people would stick to their guns “justified or not”. Enough of this. I thought the topic was “solar cycle 24″ and not global warming.
to george:
“Granted, reproducing past cycles is not the same as forecasting future ones, but if a model is based on physics (as theirs seems to be), it is meaningful nonetheless.”
The main author (Dikpati) of the NCAR paper was a student of the Indian physicist Choudhuri. Dikpati’s model is based on the same physics as the dynamo model of Choudhuri [with some details differing - and the Devil lurks in the details as we all know]. Choudhuri’s model predicts a small cycle (Rmax=75) by coincidence (?) the same as I. Here is a link to the Choudhuri model: http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0701527
to moderator:
It is very easy to post-dict. On my website http://www.leif.org/research I give a little example. Halfway down the page, click on
Grow-N-Crash Prediction Model.pdf (Panel, Boulder 2006)
Also, you can look at
Cycle 24 A(t) Index.pdf (Tlatov’s A(t) Index, through Apr., 2007)
Tlatov is a Russian astronomer that studies the large-scale organization of the solar magnetic field and his A(t) index is a proxy of the polar field. Tlatov was an invited consultant to the NASA panel [we wanted him to explain to us what he was doing]. His prediction of cycle 24 [you can see for yourself] is a low one.
“In fact, a correct model must reproduce past cycles (if the data needed for the prediction is available, of course, which it may not be for some prediction methods)”
Sometimes the data can be suspect. Dikpati used as input to her model the poloidal field calculated from the sunspot area. She got the area from David Hathaway’s website. There is a little story to tell here. Sunspot areas were measured at RGO Greenwich 1874-1975 or so. When they stopped the USAF took up the task from 1976 and on. For several reasons the USAF areas are 40% larger than RGO [from comparisons with other overlapping series from Rome, China, etc]. The correct way of constructing a combined index would have been to either divide the USAF data by 1.4 or multiply the RGO data by 1.4. David for unknown reasons did not do that; instead he “ramped up” the RGO from 1964 until 1975. That means that the combined dataset was skewed: being too low before 1964, cycle 20 “sliding up”, and “correct” from 1976. In any event not representative of the real sun.
Dikpati used that combined, faulty dataset for tuning her prediction model and for the “stunning” post-diction of past [faulty] data. When I pointed this out to her and David, Hathaway corrected his series, but Dikpati did not update her prediction, claiming that “correcting” the data made no difference.
Truth is stranger than fiction. The sun will soon set the record straight, so we all can move on.
george // October 21, 2007 at 10:19 pm |
Dr Svalgaard.
Thanks much for the detailed explanation.
And thanks Tamino for the caveat about post-diction, though it seems that its validity (and value) really depends on the details of the case.
It is at least conceivable that it could be mathematically the same as a prediction. For example, if one uses general relativity (or even newton’s laws of gravitation) to post-dict solar eclipses based on earlier orbital data, then it really is no different from predicting future eclipses (as long as one does not use data that one would not have had at the time)
On the other hand, if past data is somehow “built into” the model (to make it fit), it’s a different case, of course.
tamino // October 21, 2007 at 11:02 pm |
Dr. Svalgaard,
I’m the moderator. Thanks again for sharing an insider’s perspective on solar cycle prediction.
This post is about solar cycle 24 predictions, but the blog is about global warming, so there’s a great deal of extremely combative commentary. I tend to give free reign to commenters. I have more than once been criticized as too lenient (which may be true), but if I rejected every comment which included an accusation of obfuscation, half or more of the comments would be eligible for deletion (including some of my own). Whether my lenient policy is good or bad, it’s the choice I’ve made and the credit or blame is mine.
I too am a scientist, and although “tactics” ought not to be applied, we are hardly immune to such behavior. I find this is especially true in climate science because the issue is so politically charged, and has (to far too great a degree) been co-opted by groups with a strong vested interest in the government policy response. Many, probably most, climate scientists regard limitation of carbon emissions as essential, many politicians regard it as the primary government response strategy, and that means some sort of government influence on the consumption of fossil fuels. There’s massive money involved and political influence at stake, and that tends to spawn a lot of tactics.
One of the points I tried to emphasize in this post is that there are many physical mechanisms which affect climate. I have yet to hear any plausible mechanism to explain how it’s possible for climate not to be affected by both forcings, solar influence and greenhouse gases; one does not negate the other, nor vice versa. The real question is how effective each is, by what mechanisms they operate, and how strong the feedbacks are which amplify the response.
It’s possible for all four “possibilities” to occur without “proving” one case or the other, especially if one of the other factors enters strongly into the equation. The obvious example is that if we witness a massive volcanic eruption or a record-setting el Nino, temperature will go down or up regardless of the strength of the next solar cycle or efficacy of greenhouse gases. But, as you suggest, public perception usually rejects this perspective; if T goes up many will perceive it as proof of greenhouse-gas domination of climate, if T goes down many will regard it as refutation — again, regardless of the strength of the next solar cycle or efficacy of greenhouse gases.
On this (and most) climate science blogs, it helps to have a thick skin. I hope the comabative nature of the issue will not discourage you from further contributions. And to all readers, I offer the advice of Galileo, to give each writer credit for the best possible interpretation of what has been written.
Although, ironically, Galileo was the master of polemic in science…
EliRabett // October 21, 2007 at 11:14 pm |
Dr. Svalgaard’s decision matrix suffers from a continuing problem. We do/will have quantitative measures of solar and greenhouse forcing and temperature anomalies in three dimensions as well as measures of other parameters affected by the forcings including precipitation. Assigning changes to either or both forcings is well within our capabilities and certainly within the grasp of AR6 or 7. It is possible to separate solar and anthropic effects and has been done for the last century. The given decision matrix is at best a political statement, but does not address scientific attribution.
Finally I must admit to personal annoyance when someone, having made a provocative statement, plays the white coat card .
Mario // October 22, 2007 at 12:26 am |
I think the question prediction vs postdiction can be explained with a simple example:
Every, say, 5-data- time-series can be reproduced perfectly with a 4th degree polynomial, that has 5 free coefficients…
but the predictive value of this formula is nil, because with 5 free variables our formula is not revealig a hidden/deep regularity in the past-data, a regularity we can hope will hold in the future,
but has simply taken a photo of the data and is mechanically replicating them in another shape.
Things would be a bit better if we obtained a “very good fit” of past data with a 3rd degree polynomial, or worthier still with a straight line.
In fact to measure the “real worth” of these explanations, “tests of statistical significance” have been devised for regressions and other serious statistical analysis…
In few words a good explanation of past data, usable to predict future events, is only one that is SHORTER/simpler than the past-data themselves.
Problem is that the relative length-complexity of data vs. data-explanations is easy to verify when we deal just with theoretical models elementary as polynomials –counting it’s enough – but difficult and subject to dangerous mistakes when dealing with more articulate theories like the ones in climate research.
How can we verify that those sophisticated models are not so complex to explain well past-data only because have “too many” hidden free parameters?
In cases like these is impossible to give appropriate complexity measures/significance tests,
and to avoid believing a nice photo to be an explanation capable of predicting the future, a more crude and pragmatical test, well known to scientist:
waiting for some NEW data and verifying if the model, has PREDICTED them right.
This is an exam a “photo-like theory” has very few chances to pass: normally it will quite soon end up “surprised” by the new data.
Now, given the large number of surprises we continue to experiment in climate matters, I’m surely not alone in having the impression that a large part of what is presented as a solid body of knowledge, capable of reliable predicting the future climate, could be largely a photo-like buildup.
And this is also the reason why a possible “very low” 24 solar cycle, with its load of new data, would be a wonderful opportunity to make things much clearer for everybody.
Leif Svalgaard // October 22, 2007 at 1:30 am |
Mario brings up a important point: “the number of degrees of freedom”. If one looks at a plot of the last 100 years of sunspot numbers, one is looking at very many “degrees of freedom”. Even if yearly means are shown, there is a hundred data points. To predict all of these points would be quite a feat, indeed. But that is not what the NCAR group did. They predicted ONE number for each cycle (the total magnetic flux generated) and then uses a standard [average] shape of the cycle curve scaled to the predicted size in order to create their impressively looking plot. The actual post-diction then only has ~10 real degrees of freedom [one for each cycle], while their model has several adjustable parameters, so the agreement is much less stunning than the graph would suggest.
windansea // October 22, 2007 at 2:59 am |
Dr Svalgard
a few questions if you have time
which is the more accurate record of TSI from satellites, ACRIM or PMOD?
What do you think of the Scafetta & West paper discussing a phenomenological measure of the solar signature vs reconstructed temps for the past 400 years? Do you agree with their conclusions specifically points 15 to 19?
http://www.fel.duke.edu/~scafetta/pdf/2006GL027142.pdf
Leif Svalgaard // October 22, 2007 at 11:52 am |
“which is the more accurate record of TSI from satellites, ACRIM or PMOD?”
neither :-)
they are composites of several data sets. I’ll lean towards PMOD simply because PMOD fits my own data better.
The best TSI data (IMHO) is SORCE:
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/data/tsi_data.htm
When comparing TSI with other data, it is important that we have the “real” TSI. For times before 1978 we only have reconstructions of TSI. Such reconstructions are usually based on the sunspot number series added to an unknown “background” [usually - but probably wrongly - taken to have steadily increased]. There are indications that there may not be any such background, see:
http://www.bu.edu/cawses/cawsesnews.html vol 4, nr 2:
http://www.bu.edu/cawses/documents/cawses-news-v4-n2.pdf
(page 8).
Since I do not think there is any secular variation and their conclusions depend on such I cannot agree with them based on their present analysis. If they were to repeat the analysis without the secular variation and restate their conclusions based on that, I might look more favorably at their conclusions.
papertiger // October 22, 2007 at 2:15 pm |
John Finn
Steve McIntyre only hoped to express Mann’s bristlecone pine problem as clear and understandable as you have with your comment .
Thank you.
Leif Svalgaard // October 22, 2007 at 2:41 pm |
“Scafetta & West paper”
Let me clarify what I said: There are things in their points 15-19 with which I do agree. My disagreement is specifically with their conclusions directly based on the existence of a secular trend in TSI because I believe there is no such trend.
windansea // October 22, 2007 at 4:06 pm |
Thanks!
Would you agree that most of the sun-climate couplings are probably still unknown?
Would you agree that current climate models underestimate sensitivity to various solar forcings?
Eli Rabett // October 22, 2007 at 4:33 pm |
Mario raises a good point about the heritage of models and says that it is dangerous to rely on postdiction from complex ones. However, he should keep in mind that the effect of greenhouse gas concentration on temperature has remained roughly the same (~3C for 2xCO2) across the last 100 years and models ranging from back of the envelope (Arrhenius) to the latest GCMs. Moreover the physical root of the prediction is fairly basic thermodynamics and spectroscopy.
With regard to solar forcing, I think the basic measurement capability we currently have of the solar intensity and spectrum is adequate, and the newest cloud observations complete the picture. To ride a particular hobby horse, whole earth observation at one or more of the Lagrangian points would be better, but what we now have is useful
Leif Svalgaard // October 22, 2007 at 5:12 pm |
windansea // Oct 22nd 2007 at 4:06 pm
“Would you agree that most of the sun-climate couplings are probably still unknown?”
I would say that none have been demonstrated to my satisfaction, but that does not mean that a lot of other people cannot exist in a satisfied state.
“Would you agree that current climate models underestimate sensitivity to various solar forcings?”
since you have not specified “forcings” it is hard to answer. Is “cosmic ray influence on cloud cover” one of the solar forcings”? Since no solar activity (may not be the same as “solar forcings”) influence have been demonstrated to my satisfaction I cannot judge if the models do justice to other peoples ideas. IMHO it is perfectly correct to include solar forcings of all kinds and stripes into the models in order to see what effect they might have or how well the models might work. As long as we realize that the models are just models and not reality. But, my opinion is just my own and is not for use by proponents or deniers. I would dearly love it if solar influence on the climate [other than the obvious evolution of solar luminosity - from the dim early sun to the sun that boils away the oceans billions of years from now] could be demonstrated, as that would enhance the importance of my field – solar research, with all kinds of beneficial consequences, funding, jobs, etc.
Hank Roberts // October 22, 2007 at 11:07 pm |
Leif, it might help if you explain what you mean by “demonstrated to my satisfaction” (or “could be demonstrated”) — I assume you’re referring to something scientists do, but how would you explain what a “demonstration” means, to someone without a science background?
papertiger // October 23, 2007 at 1:19 am |
There is an experiment being carried out at Big Bear Solar Observatory, where they measure the amount of reflected light on the dark side of the moon to find the Earth’s albedo.
The “Earthshine” project is looking like validation of Dr. Svalgaard, with the albedo going up as the solar wind dies down.
Good for you and your bank account.
Bad for those of us who were actually looking forward to endless summer – (that would be me).
windansea // October 23, 2007 at 1:35 am |
Is “cosmic ray influence on cloud cover” one of the solar forcings”
yes, because planetary albedo can have a huge effect on temps, far beyond postulated GHG forcings
windansea // October 23, 2007 at 1:45 am |
Good for you and your bank account.
I doubt this is relevant. Ever hear of Fast400?
In addition to solar physics, Leif is a world class programmer.
Leif Svalgaard // October 23, 2007 at 3:11 am |
For Hank:
“how would you explain what a “demonstration” means, to someone without a science background”
It’s like explaining sex to a nun :-)
Well, seriously, let’s assume that I’m presented with a scientific paper that makes a claim. How would I go about it. First, is this something I know something about already? If not, the paper is supposed to have an introduction where the basics is exposed, usually by reference to other papers where I can find more information, and these papers in turn have THEIR introductions with references, etc. If not, I can just put the paper to the side as non-satisfying. If the paper passes this first test, it will usually explain where the data comes from [I'm not talking about purely theoretical papers to which other rules apply]. Again, if I know something about the data, I can just continue, otherwise there must be references to where I can learn about the data. If not, the paper is non-satisfying. Then comes the method of analysis. Again, if I know something about the methods used [e.g. if standard statistical methods are used], I can continue, otherwise there must be references to where I can learn about the methods, or an appendix with more info. If not, the paper is non-satisfying. Then some conclusions are drawn from the analysis applied to the data. If the conclusions are clear, I can continue, otherwise there must be some reference to other papers where similar conclusions are drawn and maybe they can provide clarity. If not, the paper is non-satisfying. I guess by now that you see the pattern. In principle, I can understand and evaluate ANY claim in ANY field by following the references. If not, then the claim is non-satisfying. Note, that this does not mean that the claim is invalid, simply that I was too dumb or too lazy (or have better things to do) to reach “demonstration to my satisfaction”.
Leif Svalgaard // October 23, 2007 at 3:23 am |
to windansea: try “svalgaard wikipedia” and read about the RC4000. Per Brinch Hansen and I wrote the first microkernel operating system that is the basis for most modern computer operating systems. So, yes, I have done some programming. Martha Stewart’s boyfriend was on the RC4000 team too. :-)
Leif Svalgaard // October 23, 2007 at 3:45 am |
Papertiger:
An update on Earthshine:
Shortwave forcing of the Earth’s climate: Modern and historical variations in the Sun’s irradiance and the Earth’s reflectance
P.R. Goodea and E. Pallé, Big Bear Solar Observatory, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Big Bear City, 92314, USA &
Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias, La Laguna, E38205, Spain
Received 1 March 2007; revised 19 June 2007; accepted 23 June 2007. Available online 5 July 2007.
Abstract
Changes in the Earth’s radiation budget are driven by changes in the balance between the thermal emission from the top of the atmosphere and the net sunlight absorbed. The shortwave radiation entering the climate system depends on the Sun’s irradiance and the Earth’s reflectance. Often, studies replace the net sunlight by proxy measures of solar irradiance, which is an oversimplification used in efforts to probe the Sun’s role in past climate change. With new helioseismic data and new measures of the Earth’s reflectance, we can usefully separate and constrain the relative roles of the net sunlight’s two components, while probing the degree of their linkage. First, this is possible because helioseismic data provide the most precise measure ever of the solar cycle, which ultimately yields more profound physical limits on past irradiance variations. Since irradiance variations are apparently minimal, changes in the Earth’s climate that seem to be associated with changes in the level of solar activity—the Maunder Minimum and the Little Ice age for example—would then seem to be due to terrestrial responses to more subtle changes in the Sun’s spectrum of radiative output. This leads naturally to a linkage with terrestrial reflectance, the second component of the net sunlight, as the carrier of the terrestrial amplification of the Sun’s varying output. Much progress has also been made in determining this difficult to measure, and not-so-well-known quantity. We review our understanding of these two closely linked, fundamental drivers of climate.
Steve Bloom // October 23, 2007 at 6:21 am |
Here’s the Earthshine paper, which appears fairly cautious. I seem to recall Palle getting beaten up pretty badly on his last outing, which was less cautious.
I notice that there’s no citation backing up the assertion about the LIA being widespread. IIRC that’s come into some question recently.
What’s irritating about this whole albedo discussion is that by now we would have on the order of five years of good direct data if Triana hadn’t been squelched by the Shrub.
Mario // October 23, 2007 at 6:57 am |
>the effect of greenhouse gas concentration on temperature
> has remained roughly the same (~3C for 2xCO2)
>across the last 100 years and models ranging
> from back of the envelope (Arrhenius) to the latest GCMs
But from articles like this I get the idea things are far less settled, knowledge far less solid:
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1135
and see also
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1851
You can make Steve McIntyre happy finding for to him the missing reference he’s so keenly looking for, on how and why exactly a CO2 doubling in the atmosphere warms up things 2.5 or 3 C rather than 1.5 or 6 …
Steve Bloom // October 23, 2007 at 2:59 pm |
Mario, I’m afraid McIntyre’s state of unhappiness is permanent. If it’s not sensitivity, it’ll be something else. In any case it’s not possible that he doesn’t already know where the sensitivity estimates come from.
henry // October 23, 2007 at 3:42 pm |
“You can make Steve McIntyre happy finding for to him the missing reference he’s so keenly looking for, on how and why exactly a CO2 doubling in the atmosphere warms up things 2.5 or 3 C rather than 1.5 or 6 …”
“In any case it’s not possible that he doesn’t already know where the sensitivity estimates come from.”
Make the rest of us happy as well, and post (or re-post) the reference, so we can ALL see where that magic number is located.
John Cook // October 23, 2007 at 10:22 pm |
Doesn’t the IPCC AR4 have a whole section (somewhere in chapter 9) on the many studies finding a climate sensitivity of around 3C?
Mario // October 24, 2007 at 12:31 am |
>Doesn’t the IPCC AR4 have a whole section (somewhere in chapter 9)
> on the many studies finding a climate sensitivity of around 3C?
IPCC AR4 assessments is exactly what, S. McIntyre was trying to discuss and “audit” in the first link I gave in my post
Now if we go to the real thing
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_Ch09.pdf
on “sensitivity estimates” we read (p. 718):
> An alternative approach, which has been pursued in most work reported here,
> is based on varying parameters in climate models that influence
> the ECS in those models, and then attaching probabilities to the
> different ECS values based on the realism of the corresponding
> climate change simulations.
Deriving a key value from models is surely elegant,
but if one fears climate models having “too many free/hidden parameters”, he would not be absolutely convinced by this.
An expected “middle of the road” value could, in his view, be the outcome coming out from most models
just because the modeler “feeling what is likely” has, even unconsciusly, tuned his model to get a reasonable result.
That is: if one believes complex models are OK, he will be reassured by this agreement in results.
But those fearing complex models to be “too tunable”,
would find such an agreement easy to explain, even expected, on psyco-sociological grounds,
and would get from it no reason to change their pessimistic opinion on complex models…
luminous beauty // October 24, 2007 at 1:56 am |
Mario,
“but if one fears climate models having “too many free/hidden parameters”, he would not be absolutely convinced by this.
If so, then one would be afraid of climate models for false reasons. “free/hidden parameters” ultimately boils down to unknown unknowns and it’s too complicated for the kind of maths the average MBA understands.
It doesn’t even rise to the level of a strawman argument. It’s an aetherman argument.
To convince someone who holds to impossible standards of proof is itself impossible.
Dennis Wingo // October 24, 2007 at 3:20 am |
tamino
One point, in your write up you state that the current solar cycle, if it ends in March 08 would be 11 years. The generally accepted start time for cycle 23 is May 1996, which would put a March 08 minimum at almost 12 years. However, since we have yet to see any cycle 24 sunspots (the time from first spot to minimum has been 12-18 months for well over 200 years) the March 2008 date is now problematic. It is therefore at least probable now that cycle 23 will be longer than 12 years, bringing Dr. Svalgaard’s prediction much closer to being the true case.
I would request therefore that you first verify my number by looking at the NASA website and then update your presentation.
The next year in solar prediction is going to be interesting!
Leif Svalgaard // October 24, 2007 at 4:19 am |
There is no ‘official’ definition of solar minimum.
The usual method is to pick the minimum ’smoothed’ sunspot number. But, sometimes there is more than one minimum, like during 1996:
1996 01 10.4
1996 02 10.1
1996 03 9.7
1996 04 8.4
1996 05 8.0
1996 06 8.5
1996 07 8.4 <=== Min
1996 08 8.3
1996 09 8.4
1996 10 8.8
1996 11 9.8
1996 12 10.4
1997 01 10.5
While the ‘absolute’ minimum is in May, the ‘effective’ minimum would be in July, kinda halfway between the 9.7 and the 9.8. I do agree that March 2008 is a bit early. My own prediction is more like May 2008. But a lot depends on when the first new cycle spots arrive, and we just don’t know yet. The minima times you will find on the ‘official’ websites are wrong and speak volumes of how difficult it is to correct ‘official’ data even if plainly wrong:
First the ‘Brussels’ site. Look at the dashed and dotted ‘predictions’:
http://sidc.oma.be/html/wolfjmms.html
then the SWPC (NOAA) plot:
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/
I have urged that these two institutions correct their plots, but to no avail: something about the predictions having to be ‘approved’ by somebody…
You are correct that the next year will be very interesting and fun, and will cause some red faces…
Dennis Wingo // October 24, 2007 at 5:48 am |
It has always been my understanding that the monthly minimum smoothed sunspot number indicates the transition between the cycles. This has been traditional for a long time.
May I ask what makes you say May 08?
Also, since you are here on this blog I will ask the additional question (it is relevant to the topic).
What do you think of the statements by some scientists that with the dramatic reduction in velocity of the meriodonal currents, and the near collapse of the interplanetary magnetic field, that this indicates that we may actually be entering a deep minimum (Dalton type at least) period.
Dennis Wingo // October 24, 2007 at 6:13 am |
Leif Svalgaard
I have read some of your papers and your work is very compelling. It looks like the B field is dropping even lower than your earlier predictions. In looking at your latest data, what do you think the result will be if the first cycle 24 sunspot is delayed until January?
Mario // October 24, 2007 at 7:49 am |
>To convince someone who holds to impossible standards of proof is itself impossible.
The “easy” standard of proof, understandable by any layman (and even average MBA!) , possible by definition for the good model is:
predict the future
luminous beauty // October 24, 2007 at 2:10 pm |
Mario,
Hansen ‘88, the first and least sophisticated predictive climate model has been pretty much right on the money after 19 years.
Convincing enough for you? Or are you going to wait until climate change is truly catastrophic to make up your mind whether the risk is worth taking?
Leif Svalgaard // October 24, 2007 at 2:41 pm |
Dennis:
“May I ask what makes you say May 08?”
See my little paper at my website:
When is Minimum.pdf (Sunspot Prediction Workshop for Cycle 24, Boulder 2007)
In the end, that is only an educated guess. When we have the first new cycle regions we might do better.
“What do you think of the statements by some scientists that with the dramatic reduction in velocity of the meridional currents, and the near collapse of the interplanetary magnetic field, that this indicates that we may actually be entering a deep minimum”.
First: we only have a few measurements of the Meridional Circulation [MC] and they point to a complicated picture. They may be more than one cell and the “normal” pattern is not known yet, so it is hard to tell and premature to draw sweeping conclusions.
Second: The interplanetary magnetic field [IMF] is not “collapsing”. There is good evidence that the IMF has two component, one that is always there with an almost constant strength and one riding on top of this “floor”. The latter component is due to solar activity and comes and goes with the solar cycle. The IMF during cycle 23 is very much like it was during cycle 13, 107 years ago. So, no collapse. And no indication either way of a deep minimum.
“what do you think the result will be if the first cycle 24 sunspot is delayed until January?”
I don’t think it makes any difference to anybody’s predictions, not to mine anyway.
And “delayed” is a bit too definite, as if that would be unexpected as some deviation from “normal”. The sun is just doing its thing on its own time scale and we should not put too much weight on a couple of months.
Leif Svalgaard // October 24, 2007 at 3:19 pm |
More on solar minimum and predictions:
On my website, hidden on the last page of:
Most Recent IMF, SW, and Solar Data.pdf
is an interesting plot, namely for the last few cycles [I'm working on one covering all the cycles since the 1850s] showing activity separately for “old” cycles and “new” cycles,
i.e. for each minimum to show the run of the dying old cycle activity [with one color] and the rise of the new cycle [with a different color]. One can do this based on the latitude and/or magnetic polarity of of the regions.
For medium and large cycles, the “rise time” is shorter than the “decay time” so the “new” curve will be steeper than the “old” curve. This has the effect that the smoothed curve [also shown, in gray] will have its minimum BEFORE the “cross-over” time when the number of old and new cycle regions are equal. The shift is typically half a year. In fact, the size of the shift will be a measure of the steepness of the rise of the next cycle so has predictive power. If the next cycle is small, the shift will be small as well [might even go the other way], so this is something to look for. But until we have some new cycle spots we can’t tell.
Mario // October 24, 2007 at 6:25 pm |
>Mario,
> Hansen ‘88, the first and least sophisticated > predictive climate model has been pretty
> much right on the money after 19 years.
> Convincing enough for you?
> Or are you going to wait until climate change > is truly catastrophic to make up your mind
> whether the risk is worth taking?
Luminous beauty,
You probably are referring to
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf
here we find three scenarios: A, B, C (see page 7 – 8)
Let’s then take the middle one, scenario B,
it predicts – see fig.3 – about 0.6 C “annual mean global surface temperature” increase between 1985 and 2007
(bur look at the maps on page 8: they seem definitely much more scaring !)
Now take today’s Hansen (!) data on what’s in fact happened:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif
If I read it well I would see a 0.4 C increase…
From this I do not find myself neither hard pressed to conclude this Hansen “model” has solid merit, nor that it is surely out of track.
Don’t you agree?
Scenarios are fun and can be very useful to make ideas clearer, but there is also a fundamental problem in a “scenario-based science”:
creating multiple scenarios has a similar flavour, but is definitely not the same as making ONE definite prediction as do hard sciences as physics or chemistry, and with a remarkable rate of successes.
It’s true that scenario building can give an IMPRESSION of real future telling capability, but this is linked to a well known fallacy.
If instead of a single prediction I propose many different scenarios it’s quite possible that “after the fact” one of them will result quite well on the spot (here for example for 1985-2007 Hansen’s “low” scenario A is much better than B)
But this is more alike to buying many tickets to win the lottery than to having a solid, “scientific” (physics-like, I mean) knowledge of a subject.
Rather multiple scenario-building vs. prediction-making is an open declaration of very limited predictive capability.
Take another well known “self proclaimed-science” that LOVES scenarios and models as economics:
There ten experts present their ten different forecasts for next year GDP increase, and
after 12 months the one who made the best prediction seems to many as a true scientist.
But chance and “lottery tickets number” are more than enough to explain his success,
especially because it’s well known that economists tend NOT to preserve their “predictive rankings” year after year.
We can conclude that what is needed to apply for the prestigious title of “true scientist” is the capability to obtain CONSISTENT successes in SINGLE predictions.
Predict the future, baby,
and I’ll believe to you
Mario // October 24, 2007 at 6:27 pm |
Sorry it is not
page 7 –
but page 7- 8 )
Dennis Wingo // October 25, 2007 at 12:38 am |
Leif
Thanks for the reply there. Let me ask another question as you have definitely hit something on the head that is bothering me. The last prediction by the “consensus” team was back in the spring of this year and they said that they would update in six months. I have noticed that the trend lines are well be low the consensus predictions and that they have not been updated. What gives? Is the community wary of making more predictions that are basically WAG’s? I agree with you that until we see some C-24 spots any detailed predictions are not very valuable.
I do like your presentation about the solar corona during minimum solar output times. There are definitely things going on with the solar/terrestrial system that is not well understood and this low cycle is going to teach us much!
One other thought. Until recently everyone was predicting that Cycle 25 was going to be very weak but that 24 was going to be strong. With the growing probability that Cycle 24 is going to be weak, how does this influence your thoughts related to Cycle 25 and its activity?
Chris O'Neill // October 25, 2007 at 1:07 am |
“absence of these (bristlecone pines)”
Why would anyone want to leave them out when they’re needed?
Leif Svalgaard // October 25, 2007 at 2:39 am |
Dennis:
“The last prediction by the “consensus” team was back in the spring of this year and they said that they would update in six months. I have noticed that the trend lines are well be low the consensus predictions and that they have not been updated. What gives?”
Simply that at least what we meant was the we would give another prediction every six months “if warranted”. But since nothing has changed, no update.
“Until recently everyone was predicting that Cycle 25 was going to be very weak but that 24 was going to be strong. With the growing probability that Cycle 24 is going to be weak, how does this influence your thoughts related to Cycle 25 and its activity?”
historically, the first really low cycle after a sequence of high cycles has always been followed by several more low cycles, so C-25 will likely be small too if C-24 turns out to be small.
Steve Bloom // October 25, 2007 at 3:21 am |
I noticed that over on a denialist blog (Watts Up With That) our friend papertiger wrote:
“(T)he other day at a website called Tamino, Dr Svalgaard dropped in and basicly cleaned the clock of the AGW proponents who run the blog, in regards to TSI and the solar wind’s influence on cloud formation.”
Did I miss something? Based on this comment above from Leif, papertiger seems to have heard what he wanted to.
nanny_govt_sucks // October 25, 2007 at 3:42 am |
Well, you would want to leave them out (as well as each of the other proxies) during testing for robustness.
Hank Roberts // October 25, 2007 at 3:50 am |
Those guys are lumpers — they classify scientists either as clock-cleaners (their champions) or demons.
You can tell they’re old. Who today would clean a clock? Just replace the battery!
http://news.google.com/news?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&tab=wn&ncl=1122574364&hl=en&btclp=1&scoring=r
Leif Svalgaard // October 25, 2007 at 6:51 pm |
The National Geographic commissioned a piece on the sun, sunspots, climate, etc. They interviewed several people involved in that debate. Some of these people may be familiar to you: Judith Lean, Yours Truly, and others.
It will be shown on the National Geographic Channel. It’s titled Naked Science ‘Solar Force’.
It goes out on Tuesday 30th October 2007 at 9pm ET and again at midnight ET.
It also goes out on Thursday 1st November 2007 at 10pm ET.
Seems that it is also shown several times after that and the listings can be found on http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/ if you are interested.
windansea // October 25, 2007 at 7:12 pm |
thanks for the tip, I will definitely watch it
EliRabett // October 26, 2007 at 1:00 am |
Mario picks 1985 because it was a low in the observational record, and draws a straight line to the 2006 end point. This is an old stupidity which, I believe originated with Warwick Hughes. If you look at the predictions and the observational data on the same figure, the 1988 predications are excellent
Chris O'Neill // October 26, 2007 at 2:04 am |
“Well, you would want to leave them out (as well as each of the other proxies) during testing for robustness.”
As indeed they did.
nanny_govt_sucks // October 26, 2007 at 3:09 am |
And what, pray tell, were the results of this robustness testing?
Hank Roberts // October 26, 2007 at 3:23 am |
Mario, did you fool yourself, or get fooled?
Meaning — did you fall for that particular picked year, finding it on someone’s website and just copying and pasting it here, thinking it was a valid point instead of bogus?
Or did you pick it yourself?
If you picked it yourself, why? Was it because it looked like a stronger argument to pick one particular low year than look at the trend like a scientist would?
Give us some idea of how you think and how you present what you know here, and what you believe is trustworthy to learn how things work.
Chris O'Neill // October 26, 2007 at 8:07 am |
“And what, pray tell, were the results of this robustness testing?”
That anytime that robustness testing is possible, apart from since 1750, these proxies pass the test. Testing has been done for 530 years of the proxies’ duration.
John Finn // October 26, 2007 at 2:35 pm |
Chris O.
There are a number of issues with the h-s reconstruction. I’ve read through your previous posts and I think you are confusing the Gaspe cedar problm with the ‘Bristlecone’ problem.
The BP problem highlights the fact that the MBH methodology ‘mines’ for h-s shaped data and assigns it the top weighting in the PCA. i.e the methodology is flawed and it cannot help but give flawed results.
Even those at RC have given up trying to defend it. In fact the only time that they have addressed the issue directly was in an article entitled “What if the hockey stick were wrong?”. This was in anticipation of the McIntyre and Mckitrick revelations.
nanny_govt_sucks // October 26, 2007 at 4:04 pm |
What do you mean by that?
Mario // October 26, 2007 at 8:34 pm |
>Mario picks 1985 because it was a low in the
> observational record, and draws a straight line > to the 2006 end point. This is an old stupidity
> which, I believe originated with Warwick Hughes.
Hank Roberts:
I started computing variations from 1985 because I looked (as said) to fig.3 at page 7
Do the same and you ll’notice that the solid temperature graph of real data ends exactly in year 1985
And then the B scenario – the intermediate dotted line – starts exactly from here going to today (+0.6 C) and beyond!
Do you see anyting different?
Mario // October 26, 2007 at 9:33 pm |
> Give us some idea of how you think
> and how you present what you know here,
> and what you believe is trustworthy
> to learn how things work.
Hank Roberts,
I stick to this principle:
Truth has a problem
it is not politically correct
dhogaza // October 27, 2007 at 1:10 am |
Except when it is, of course …
luminous beauty // October 27, 2007 at 3:32 am |
Mario admits his perception of truth is guided by his political views.
We knew that.
Chris O'Neill // October 27, 2007 at 4:28 pm |
“”That anytime that robustness testing is possible,”"
“What do you mean by that?”
Sometimes it’s possible and sometimes it’s not. I’m talking about the times that robustness testing of those proxies was possible, which was from 1428 onwards, although they have actually only been tested from 1450 onwards. Curiously, some people think that passing a test all through a period of 300 years is not enough
Chris O'Neill // October 27, 2007 at 5:26 pm |
“The BP problem highlights the fact that the MBH methodology ‘mines’ for h-s shaped data and assigns it the top weighting in the PCA. i.e the methodology is flawed and it cannot help but give flawed results.”
How flawed is “flawed”. If MBH98 only gives 0.1 deg C hockeystick bias (which can be ascertained by comparison with reconstructions beginning in 1450 AD that don’t include BPs) then it’s not going to be particularly significant. In the case of MBH99, non-climatic hockeystick bias is removed from the BP proxy anyway, so there isn’t the “flawed methodology” that there is in MBH98.
“Even those at RC have given up trying to defend it.”
Maybe they get bored with responding to trolls.
Dennis Wingo // October 28, 2007 at 7:09 am |
What’s irritating about this whole albedo discussion is that by now we would have on the order of five years of good direct data if Triana hadn’t been squelched by the Shrub.
Triana was killed because the costs balloned from $75M dollars to over $280M dollars before launch costs were figured in. Small science missions that go that far over budget almost always get killed.
Steve Bloom // November 14, 2007 at 10:29 pm |
Dennis, just to note that the budget problems are all in the past since Triana is *finished*. Also, IIRC the EU agreed to cover the launch costs. Certainly the ongoing management costs would be non-zero, but their size relative to the unique obs possible from Triana begin to make the budget excuse look pretty thin. IOW, Occam’s Razor would seem to point to the more political explanation (not so much the “hating Al Gore” one as the “we dislike the prospect of those observations” one).
Hank Roberts // November 15, 2007 at 5:38 am |
Yep. People look at the SOHO solar imagery because they like watching the sun; people would certainly watch a live full-sunlit full Earth camera.
What’s not to like? Albedo full disk full-time measurement and the nicest view in the Universe for one price.
henry // November 15, 2007 at 4:39 pm |
Chris O’Neill // October 26, 2007 at 8:07 am
“And what, pray tell, were the results of this robustness testing?”
That anytime that robustness testing is possible, apart from since 1750, these proxies pass the test. Testing has been done for 530 years of the proxies’ duration.
The bristlecone proxies have been around for 530 years?
Hank Roberts // November 15, 2007 at 6:29 pm |
Here, just grabbing one of many from Google, is the reason Triana makes sense.
You know how when you look at anything, there’s a bright spot around your shadow?
Reflection varies a lot depending on sun angle. Keeping a consistent sun angle gives you a consistent measurement.
Triana is aimed to be kept very close to the Lagrange point on a line between Earth and Sun, and its position will be known very accurately, so it can give a consistent longterm measurement of Earth’s albedo.
Being on the Sun-Earth line it is always seeing the sunlit side of Earth as Earth rotates.
That view can be compared to all the varying points of view of all the many low Earth orbit and geostationary satellites.
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/triana/documents/helen_ams2001.pdf
Goal: removing a huge amount of uncertainty and argument from the available science.
Result: ???
“This paper describes the development of the proposed multi-angle dataset and applies it to currently available datasets. The Triana dataset is simulated using Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on the Terra satellite. The simulated Triana EPIC data are then matched with several GEO satellites (GOES-East, GOES-West, and GMS-5) and LEO satellites, including MODIS and the AVHRR (Advanced Very High Resolution Radiometer) on NOAA-12, NOAA-14, 15, and 16. A technique is developed to collocate and nearly simultaneously match visible images from Triana with current available satellites to build new multi-angle, multisatellite VIS imagery. The imager data from each satellite will be matched to the TrianaÕs EPIC view within 5-15 minutes. This methodology will also be useful for combining currently available datasets.”
Something even an auditor could love.
Hank Roberts // November 15, 2007 at 6:33 pm |
Perhaps the real opposition to launching Triana (even under its new name) is the Administration’s fear that Al Gore would then be credited with having invented the Interplanetary Superhighway*?
That could have been a joke. I hope.
Not a joke: much of the argument against putting Triana up was based on the political fear that because Gore as VP pushed for the program, his name would continue to be associated with results from it.
And results that would settle much of the debate about climate change — actual albedo measurements — would be widely reported.
________
* http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~shane/superhighway/description.html
luminous beauty // November 15, 2007 at 7:53 pm |
henry,
The bristlecone proxies have been around for about 8,000 yrs.
William // November 22, 2007 at 4:35 am |
Moving beyond the problems of predicting a Maunder minimum to physically what is happening in the sun to cause a deep magnetic minimum. It should be apparent in 6 months or so whether cycle 23 is or isn’t the beginning of a deep minimum.
Are there any hypotheses as to the causes of a Maunder minimum? Is a Maunder minimum a cycle interruption? How does a Maunder minimum end?
Didn’t the Wilson H-K study support the assertion that sun-like stars have a cycle state of deep magnetic minimum? I thought the H-K study also found indications of super flares, which would be consistent with an interruption in magnetic field cycle.
The paleoclimatic record has multiple semi periodic rapid climate events the Dansgaard-Oechger cycles and Heinrich cycles. It does not seem like much of stretch to hypothesis a semi-periodic solar climatic forcing function.
William // November 23, 2007 at 6:22 pm |
The following is a stab at answering the solar interruption questions. What are others thoughts?
A deep solar magnetic minimum can be predicted based on the structure and periodicity of past semi periodic abrupt changes in the paleoclimatic record, with the current understanding of the solar magnetic cycle. (i.e. The changes in planetary temperature require a cause. If solar changes are the hypothesized cause, what could possibly cause a semi periodic interruption in the solar magnetic field?)
The paleoclimatic record shows semi periodic rapid climate changes at roughly 200 years, 1450 +/500 yrs, and 8000 years. Recent paleoclimatic findings (last 5 years) indicate the changes in planetary temperature appear to be simultaneous in both hemispheres.
The following is a hypothesized mechanism for the deep solar magnetic minimum.
Solar observations support the hypothesis that the sunspot magnetic field is generated at the tacholine, the region of the sun where there is a change from the radiative zone to the convection zone. The magnetic fields generated at the tacholine rise through the convection zone to the solar surface, where they are removed by the solar magnetic cycle. A large sunspot has a measured magnetic field strength of around 3000 gauss, as compared to the earth’s magnetic field strength of 0.5 gauss. Theoretical calculations indicate that a magnetic field of up to 100,000 gauss can be generated at the tacholine.
In the normal solar cycle the magnetic fields generated at the tacholine rise to surface before reaching a 100,000 gauss. (The past solar cycle is hypothesized to act as a seed for the next cycle. If the magnetic field generation at the tacholine is interrupted, the past solar cycle no longer interacts at the tacholine. Hence, solar models of the normal solar cycle which use features of the past solar cycle for normal solar cycle predictions are not useful to predict the length and severity of the deep solar magnetic minimum.)
The hypothesized mechanism to interrupt the solar magnetic cycle is the rapid periodic movement of the sun by the planets. The sun moves as much as 1 million kilometers in a complicate orbit which is dependent on the relative positions of the planets. It is hypothesized that whether the solar magnetic cycle is interrupted or not, depends on the current structure of the magnetic field at the tacholine and the relative magnitude of the solar acceleration.
Hank Roberts // November 23, 2007 at 9:23 pm |
Hypothesized by whom, William? I know I’ve seen it a number of places:
search Scholar for +barycenter +climate
but whose hypothesis are you referring to? There are a lot of them.
William // November 24, 2007 at 5:09 am |
In Reply to Hank Roberts.
I could not find any good papers written on this subject, which seems odd, as the other pieces to the problem seem to have been worked out. The paleoclimatic data which shows semi periodic planetary warming followed by rapid cooling, mechanisms that show a change to a solar deep magnetic field minimum could affect planetary temperature, evidence that other stars also cyclically have maunder minimums, evidence that other stars have a greater change in TSI than the sun, and a 178 year cycle in solar position (retrograde motion of sun with core) which if it (the 178 year event) beat with a semi chaotic solar cycle would seem to provide a varying type of deep magnetic minimum solar minimum.
The following was the best that I could find.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003SPD….34.0603S
Long-range (my comment: solar forecasts)….vary greatly in their methods. They range from examining planetary orbits, to spectral analyses ….to artificial intelligence methods, to simply using general statistical techniques. Rather than concentrate on statistical…. methods, we discuss a class of methods which appears to have a “physical basis.” Not only does it have a physical basis, but this basis is rooted in both “basic” physics (dynamo theory), but also solar physics …
My colleagues and I have …expanded the prediction methods using “solar dynamo precursor” methods, …These methods are now based upon an understanding of the Sun’s dynamo processes- to explain a connection between how the Sun’s fields are generated and how the Sun broadcasts its future activity levels to Earth. This has led to better … is leading to more accurate prediction techniques. Related to the Sun’s polar and toroidal magnetic fields, we explain how these methods work, past predictions, the current cycle, and predictions of future of solar activity levels for the next few solar cycles.
The surprising result of these …predictions is a rapid decline in solar activity, starting with cycle #24. If this trend continues, we may see the Sun heading towards a “Maunder” type of solar activity minimum – an extensive period of reduced levels of solar activity.
Hank Roberts // November 24, 2007 at 7:05 pm |
William,
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f546880v4q757702/
Steve Bloom // November 25, 2007 at 4:39 am |
For the record, over at the DeSmogBlog they’ve been conducting an extensive investigation (latest post here) of Triana (formally DSCOVR). There truly seems to be no good excuse for it not to have been launched. Interestingly NOAA seems to have lined up complete funding and NASA simply refuses to hand over the satellite.
Hank Roberts // November 25, 2007 at 5:23 pm |
> the Deep Space Climate Observatory
> (DSCOVR ) is a fully completed
> spacecraft, that if launched, would
> almost immediately lay to rest any
> remaining legitimate debate
> regarding the origins of global
> climate change.
– desmog
Well, DUH. Accurate albedo information available and the uncertainties settled? Before the election??
William // November 25, 2007 at 6:20 pm |
In reply to Hank Robert’s comment:
The movement of the sun about its barycentre does not appear to control the 22 year solar cycle for as the paper you linked to above notes, the 22 year solar dynamics are faster than the movement of the sun by the planets.
The solar barycentre motion is, however, a likely explanation for what triggers the sun to change from its normal solar cycle to a “Maunder Minimum” stage as noted below.
The initiation of a “Maunder Minimum” is not determined by the speed of motion but rather the magnitude of relative motion and resulting separation between the solar radiative zone and the convection zone. i.e. There is a separation at the tacholine (Tacholine is the interface of the radiative zone and convection zone and is where it is believed the strong sunspot magnetic fields are created.) when the sun changes direction, in its barycentre motion driven by the large planets.
From the following paper:
“Prolonged minima and the 179-yr cycle of the solar inertial motion ” by R. Fairbridge and J. Shirley
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springerlink.com%2Findex%2FW57236105034H657.pdf&ei=MbRJR_fGKp3-hQPbqqzYDg&usg=AFQjCNHnjunqQsL34ukKjNL6jP5DC5HcnA&sig2=TmG_DaV1c5f9umQVMBHgvw
“The progression of the inertial orientation parameter is controlled by the 900-yr great inequality of the motion of Jupiter and Saturn, while the precessional rotation parameter is linked with the 179-yr cycle of the solar inertial motion previously identified by Jose (1965). A new prolonged minimum of solar activity may be imminent.”
The above mechanism would explain why there is a 200 year cycle in the climatic record. The depth of solar minimum would then depend on the detailed solar dynamics at the time when the 179 year cyclic change of direction solar motion takes place.
The solar dynamic state at the time of interruption must be also be semi cyclical as there is an observed 200year, 1450 year +/- 500 year cycle and the roughly 8000 year cycle in the paleoclimatic data.
[Response: Here's my opinion: the proposed relationship between solar inertial motion, solar cycles, and climate impact, is one of the most crackpot of all crackpot theories. If you want to discuss it, find someplace else.]
Hank Roberts // November 25, 2007 at 7:08 pm |
William, you found a 20 year old article; follow the cites, it was debunked by the 2005 article I pointed you to.
I agree with Tamino (and it’s his website we’re using). Stop.
Hank Roberts // November 25, 2007 at 9:54 pm |
Aside to Tamino, one NASA author (2006 abstract); re wrong physics/math used by those making such claims:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2966.2006.10107.x
Ulric Lyons // December 13, 2007 at 12:46 pm |
I have done extensive study of heliocentric, relative positions of the Planets, and am in no doubt whatsoever, that the the same scenario will produce the same result again and again without exception. This is in respect to global temperature, per week/month/decade including LIA and MWP periods and individual cold months that froze major rivers such as the Euphrates 608 and the Nile 829,
position and intensity of sunspot maximas, position and intensity of ENSO, and to all extreme or dangerous weather events. The 179yr cycle refered to above is the synthesis of four orbits. 112 Venus synodic periods = 179.05 sidereal Years, and is first repeatable harmony of Earth and Venus, with Jupiter and Saturn. Because there is a slight slip in this return of obits, all four will line up only so many times in a row, and will restart at a different Earth/Venus syzygy to get all four in sync again. This sheds light on why proxy records appear to be `quasi-cyclic`. I have a tool here, I am using it, but would love to know how it works, because I know it works every time, if it is not to do with barycenters or tidal forces on the surface of the Sun, what could be causing this irrefutable effect the Planets positions are having on SSN/temp/weather.
Hank Roberts // December 13, 2007 at 4:32 pm |
> I know it works every time
Then you believe it will work every time in the future, as well as in the past.
So post your prediction for, as you say:
– individual cold months
– [freezing] major rivers
– position and intensity of sunspot maximas
– position and intensity of ENSO, and
– all extreme or dangerous weather events.
Post them for each of the next ten years, in public.
Then, when people see you have accurately predicted each of these, and are convinced that as you say “it works every time” — you’ll get the Nobel Prize, and people will work out the details for you.
There’s absolutely no doubt that if you do post a prediction of the future (which is the hardest kind) and you’re right (which is easy to check year by year) people will be convinced.
Note that predicting the past, as most of these kinds of notions do, is much easier. People tend to find patterns, whether they’re real or not.
Three simple steps:
– predict the near future,
– await recognition,
– $$Profit$$
It can’t fail, if you do it right.
Ulric Lyons // December 13, 2007 at 7:25 pm |
Hank, October 2008 should see ocean warming, but unlikely to be a full El Nino, July 2009 onwards should warm oceans enough to trigger one, looking moderate in strength, late 2013 is the next target and it looks strong to major, very late 2015 is the next target, and looks strong, warming from July 2018 is the next target, and is similar to the 1982/3 alignments, but not quite so tight, so strong, but probably not major. Ok thats 10 years of ENSO. The next sunspot cycle should be fully `engaged` by June 2008, centered at early to mid 2013, and be between 130 to 160 level. As for `individual cold months that will feeze major rivers`, no worries, I do not see this occurring till at least 2020. Lastly, I have
no intention of giving predictions for `extreme or dangerous weather events` here, as I do not consider it appropriate.
Hank Roberts // December 15, 2007 at 3:12 am |
dc.oma.be/news/100/welcome.html
“Welcome to solar cycle 24–An area in the northern hemisphere of the solar disk at a rather high latitude with a leading negative and trailing positive polarity is spotted: this could be the first indication of the start of solar cycle 24! –posted: Dec 13, 2007″
http://sidc.oma.be/news/100/magnetogram_Dec13_2007_c.png
The larger spot shows the old Cycle 23 polarity.
Hank Roberts // December 16, 2007 at 2:33 am |
A bit more on sunspots, quoting from here:
http://solarcycle24.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~4.asp#top
“Cycle 24 Spots in the Southern Hemisphere are white on the right. (White Leader)
Cycle 24 Spots in the Northern Hemisphere are black on the right. (Black Leader)
A note about SOHO Images. SOHO is positioned at a LaGrange Point. That is a point of equal gravitational pull. That point is above the plane of the sun’s rotation. As such SOHO images have tilt. This distorts the image slightly. Instead of the Sun’s Equator evenly bisecting the image we see it as a parabola with the open end up …”
Ulric Lyons // December 17, 2007 at 11:47 am |
Hank, on second thoughts, I think it would be safe to issue some extreme weather predictions, on the phenomena I have studied most intensely, namely Atlantic hurricanes.
I have an elegantly simple solution to why any given year is strong or weak in total number of storms, and am able to not only pinpoint storm trigger dates, but also estimate the strength of each event.
On the basis of this, it is clear to me that 2008 will be a busier Atlantic hurricane season than 2007 or 2006, and that the 2 strongest events will start around the 2nd week of September, and be uplifted around the 15th Sept. The second should form mid October. As to what the tracks will be, or whether they will be US landfall, I am making no comment at this point in time.
As a matter of interest, look for solar activity and Pacific storm activity from the 8/9th June 2008.
Ulric Lyons // December 17, 2007 at 12:10 pm |
Hank, this one I would put my life on: Late September/early October 2010. This will produce a major Atlantic storm. Looking back to August 10/11th 1831, (179.05 yrs) the Planet scenario was almost identical, and was the Great Caribbean Hurricane with 1500/2000 deaths.
Hank Roberts // January 5, 2008 at 5:48 pm |
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/images/gong2.jpg
Leif Svalgaard // January 5, 2008 at 8:42 pm |
Hank said (16 Dec): “A note about SOHO Images. SOHO is positioned at a LaGrange Point. That is a point of equal gravitational pull. That point is above the plane of the sun’s rotation. As such SOHO images have tilt. This distorts the image slightly. Instead of the Sun’s Equator evenly bisecting the image we see it as a parabola with the open end up …”
Hank, this is true half of the year, the other half it is the other way around. BTW, the Earth also moves like this (L1 being on the Sun-Earth line). From Dec. 7 to June 6, we are below the solar euator, the rest of the time above it.
Hank Roberts // January 5, 2008 at 9:53 pm |
Hi Lief, apt clarification — you might want to post that correction at the page I quoted it from, I was quoting Bob_K6TR Moderator who I assume meant ‘right now’ rather than ‘all the time’ — he posted that at http://solarcycle24.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~4.asp#top
I don’t recall how fast the Sun’s axis precesses, compared to the length of our year, do you know?
I recall the one satellite in solar polar orbit, during the one reversal it has measured so far, found some distinct difference between measurements of intensity changed along with the polarity change.
Leif Svalgaard // January 5, 2008 at 11:07 pm |
Hank, the Sun’s axis is fixed in space and does not precess. Seen from the Earth, the Sun’s axis “tips” to and fro by 7.16 degrees during the year, because the ecliptic plane and the sun’s equatorial plane are inclined an angle of that size. The Ulysses spacecraft may have found some differences, but these are probably just some [random] temporal variations rather than some permanent property of the solar wind.
tamino // January 5, 2008 at 11:10 pm |
Dr. Svalgaard, I’m very curious: how did your presentation at the AGU meeting go?
Leif Svalgaard // January 6, 2008 at 12:43 am |
“Leif” is fine. About AGU: I had two posters, one about the correctness (or not) of the sunspot number series [both of them], and one on TSI. They are actually related as many reconstructions of TSI are based on or calibrated by the Group Sunspot Number. To claim that the sunspot number is wrong is serious business, but there seems to be a growing “feeling” that I may be on to something. The reaction to my claim that TSI has varied a lot less than commonly assumed, i.e. that there is no ‘background’ long-term change, or in other words, that at each solar minimum the TSI falls to the value is had during the Maunder Minimum was well received. People like Dora Premminger, Claus Froehlich, even Scafetta [a little bit] were not too averse against my conclusions. Of course, there is more work to be done before everybody is on board. Here is my reconstruction of TSI: http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-LEIF.pdf
If I’m correct it means that 1) either the sun does not influence the climate or 2) the climate system is hypersensitive to even the smallest changes in TSI or sto ome other parameter that also follows the solar cycle [e.g. cosmic rays].
There has been a steady decline in the ‘background’ from Hoyt-Schatten -> Lean -> Lean -> Wang -> Leif that simple extrapolation would have predicted the disappearance of the background about next yaer anyway, so resistance is getting weaker.
Steve Bloom // January 6, 2008 at 9:41 am |
Leif, that’s interesting that Scafetta was something other than entirely hostile. Maybe he’s starting to feel the need for some outside assistance in abandoning his recent line of research. Did any modelers show up, BTW?
Regarding the possible hypersensitivity of climate to small TSI variations, I’m going to boldly suggest that both hypotheses fail to stand up on extremely trivial grounds.
The first and most obvious ground is the effects we see (and don’t see) from TSI changes in the solar cycle (noting that those are roughly the same amplitude as your reconstruction).
Further, regarding the direct hypothesis, an explanation would be needed for why the large increases in high-latitude insolation that trigger the deglaciations would not have the same effect in those locations as an irradiance increase; i.e, why irradiance changes wouldn’t have disrupted the glacial cycle at some point. That seems like a stretch.
As for cosmic rays, a couple of years ago Harrison found an apparent *small* effect of cosmic ray variation on clouds, but it just didn’t seem to be large enough to fit the hypothesis. If the clouds aren’t affected much, it doesn’t make much difference what TSI does.
I’m sure there are yet other grounds, but of course a person with your background would have thought of most of them pretty much as soon as the question was posed. Not that I would accuse you of, you know, leading anyone on or anything. You certainly haven’t done that *here*. :)
inputted // January 15, 2008 at 4:09 am |
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/14jan_northpole.htm?list15225
——excerpt——-
By flying around the sun, covering all latitudes in a way that no other spacecraft can, Ulysses has been able to monitor this polar wind throughout the solar cycle–and it is acting a bit odd.
Posner explains: “Eleven years ago, during a similar ’sea change’ between solar cycles, the polar wind spilled down almost all the way to the sun’s equator. But this time it is not. The polar wind is bottled up, confined to latitudes above 45 degrees: data.”
Is this a detail of little importance or a major anomaly, signaling new things to come? Again, no one knows, and that’s why now is a good time to visit the sun’s North Pole.
The flyby is underway. Stay tuned…..
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/northpole/orbit_big.jpg
inputted // January 15, 2008 at 4:09 am |
Oops, drat this WordPress stuff, c’est moi — Hank Roberts. I wonder if I can fix that name thing.
Steve Bloom // January 16, 2008 at 3:11 am |
I don’t know, Hank, I kind of like your new name. :)
Hmm, did I scare Leif off? Well, he’s still going strong over at CA. I poke my head in every couple of weeks to see what progress he’s made pulling the wings off of small helpless insects doing battle with the auditors.
It really is a window onto a different reality. One begins to get a sense of why astrology has continued to have such strong appeal throughout human history. I had always assumed that the solar denialists had first rejected the “consensus” and then grasped for the sun as the easiest available alternative explanation; now I’m beginning to suspect I may have gotten the order wrong.
Anyway, starting here Leif challenges them to grasp the nettle of explaining how the sun could strongly influence climate even with a low TSI, and so far they’ve managed to avoid considering the obvious point that such an explanation would need to account for the apparent lack of much of an effect due to the regular solar cycle.
Leif Svalgaard // January 16, 2008 at 8:00 pm |
Steve, I’m still here. I’m not sure, I get your point about deglaciations and TSI. And, we are not making any progress on explaining the needed hypersensitivity of climate to the Sun [if indeed there is any]. I’m still amazed how strong ‘Astrology’ apparently is. Maybe it is because real solar physics is very difficult [we don't even know what a sunspot is and how it forms - we can describe it, but that is not understanding it].
hank: about the solar poles: 1st: we are still not yet at solar minimum where the corona is ‘flattest’, so we still have a ways to go. 2nd: the solar polar fields [that are important for 'flattening down' the corona is only about half of what they were at the last minimum, so one would expect less flattening [this is also the reason for the prediction of a small solar cycle 24]. So far, I don’t see any real anomalies.
Hank Roberts // January 17, 2008 at 12:56 am |
> poles
Yes, it’s unfortunate the satellite is in such a long elliptical orbit, so it doesn’t always cross a pole at the most interesting time. Not sure what else it’s doing besides close passes over the solar poles, whether it’s just the best orbit they can manage. It must’ve been a lot harder to whip it out to near 90 degrees to the ecliptic than it is to do slingshots in the plane like the ones that will end up getting Messenger to Mercury orbit eventually.
Apropos of orbital slingshots and astrology, how flat _is_ the Solar System? When someone claims the major planets are lining up, are they looking at a flat 2-D plot, or a 3-D alignment?
Leif Svalgaard // January 17, 2008 at 2:03 am |
Hank: As you say it is very difficult to move stuff out of the ecliptic. To do this, ESA sent the spacecraft out to Jupiter, to use its gravity to bend the orbit over the poles. There were supposed to be TWO spacecraft, one going over the North pole and the other over the South pole, before whipping around and exchanging places. NASA was supposed to deliver one craft and ESA the other. NASA decided it didn’t want to play, so now we only have the one, spending five years just going back out to Jupiter and then back in again for yet another polar pass. “Sling slotting” is not that hard, except you need a big one like Jupiter to do the trick.
Apart from Mercury and Pluto, the solar system is very flat [a few degrees].
Steve Bloom // January 17, 2008 at 7:49 am |
Hey, what’s that Kuiper Belt object doing lumped together with the planet? :)
Thanks for your response, Leif. Regarding the glacial cycles, my very limited understanding is that the “shape” of each of them is correlated with Milankovitch configurations and that this explains why the glacial cycles look different. E.g., the last interglacial was warmer but very short while the present one will never get as warm but will be very long. Conceivably, a sufficient TSI change could result in a noticeable distortion of the shape of a glacial cycle. It may be that the actual glacial/deglacial signals are too strong to be thrown off in this way (IIRC we’re talking high-latitude insolation changes on the order of 80 w/m^2), but there are also more subtle Milankovitch effects such as the Holocene Thermal Optimum that are quite noticeable in climate terms but don’t involve as much of an insolation change. If no TSI effect can be discerned at any point, possibly that would allow some conclusions to be drawn.
As I think about it more, I don’t see that this test would preclude hypersensitivity as such since it could be hard to tell the difference between a small TSI change with large sensitivity and a large TSI change with low sensitivity. But could the proxies help with that?
Tamino has been making a study of the Milankovitch cycles, so perhaps he has something to say.
Steve Bloom // January 18, 2008 at 12:14 am |
Leif just posted this over at CA:
“This is an abstract for an upcoming meeting:
SORCE’s Past, Present, and Future Role in Earth Science Research, Science Meeting 2008
La Posada de Santa Fe Resort & Spa, Santa Fe, New Mexico, February 5-7, 2008 :
“‘Fire vs Fire: Do Volcanoes or Solar Variability Contribute More to Past Climate Change?
Thomas Crowley [thomas.crowley@ed.ac.uk] and Gabriele Hegerl, School of Geosciences,
The University of Edinburgh, Scotland.
“‘Geologists in particular are quick to ascribe past centennial scale climate changes to solar variability. But successively refined records of volcanism from ice core studies suggest that pulses of volcanism explain more decadal temperature variance than can be linear linked to cosmogenic isotope variations. Formal statistical detection and attribution studies arrive at the same conclusion. However, there still seems to be some (literally) wiggle room for perhaps a small contribution from solar. An example will be given from a 2000 year northern hemisphere temperature reconstruction that suggests (at least at the time of writing this abstract) that there may be a moderately significant solar linkage at ~200 year period.
“‘Given time, a somewhat disconcerting apparent correlation between pulses of volcanism with the Dalton, Maunder, and Sporer Minima will be discussed. Given the unlikely physically significant correlations between the two, the possibility will be explored that cosmogenic records may have an uncorrected overprint from volcanically driven climate change. Provisional summary judgement: solar may be at best marginally significant on the multidecadal to centennial time scale.’
“My comment: 10Be is deposited by adhering to stratospheric aerosols which then drift down and rain out. The amount of aerosols in the stratosphere is controlled mainly by volcanic eruptions. There were such strong eruptions in 1693 (Hekla on Iceland, having large effect on nearby Greenland), 1766 (Hekla), 1809 (see Dai JGR 96, 1991), 1814 (Mayon), 1815 (Tambora), 1883 (Krakatoa).”
Safe to say that’s a rather large shoe being dropped. My question is: This gets noticed *now*?! Either Crowley and Hegerl have some novel angle on this or there’s going to be alot of egg available for a lot of faces, theirs included.
Hank Roberts // January 18, 2008 at 1:49 am |
Chemistry in the stratosphere is quite new as an area and this sounds to me like the kind of surprise you need a fleet of jet aircraft, high-rise balloons or satellites to find.
But throwing a few terms at Google Scholar I find people have been publishing mentions of how cosmogenic beryllium isotopes do get brought down from the upper stratosphere for quite a while, including mention of vulcanism, so it can’t be a total surprise. I guess.
I only a few days came across, posted, and at the moment can’t find a very intriguing speculation that the periods of low sunspot counts during the time the sunspot cycle was first being described were also periods when, far away, major volcanic eruptions happened. The fellow in — Scotland? — had no way of knowing that the atmosphere was quite different for several years, while his sunspot numbers were low, perhaps because he couldn’t see them rather than because they weren’t there.
Now where did I put that cite.
I also came across a Baliunas or Soon or both piece from the 1990s that used temperature measurements to refine their estimates of sunspot numbers from before sunspots were being counted, too.
Hmmm. Cause, effect, cause, coincidence, effect, cause, oops …
EliRabett // January 19, 2008 at 3:53 am |
Chemistry in the stratosphere is a very old subject, however it was thought quite boring until about 20 years ago when people started to think about a whole bunch of radical species. Look up Chapman cycle.
Steve Bloom // January 22, 2008 at 12:00 am |
Per a response from Mike Mann at RC, my reference above is more of a modest slipper (by way of being a validation of where things were headed anyway). That current thinking is tending toward a conclusion that the solar contribution has likely been very small indeed, and among other things the LIA and MWP are explained largely by variations in volcanic activity, is made very clear by AR4 WG1 Chapter 6. Given this, Leif’s proposal starts sounding a lot less radical (and no problem at all for the models). The Be problems were news to me, but as Hank notes they’ve been kicking around for a while too.
Interestingly Mike blames a 1990 Baliunas paper (finding that the sun is a variable star) for much of the ensuing solar confusion. Climate historians or liver-philic eagles may be interested in the question of whether Baliunas was a fraud at the outset or became one by way of defending her work. Didn’t she have some pre-1990 involvement in CFC-ozone denial?
Hank Roberts // January 22, 2008 at 1:48 am |
> Baliunas
As mentioned and linked here:
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2003/11/21/peddling-influence/
Text in full here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021110143019/http:/www.house.gov/science_democrats/archive/envrpt96.htm#EN1-27
These footnotes:
[27] Dr. Baliunas has many peer-reviewed publications in her specialty, solar astrophysics, but her criticisms of ozone and global change science have been published only by the Marshall Institute, whose reports are not peer reviewed, according to published reports. In “Attacks on IPCC Report Heat Controversy Over Global Warming” (Physics Today, August 1996, at 57), Toni Feder quotes Dr. Frederick Seitz, Chairman of the Marshall Institute, as saying that Marshall reports are not peer-reviewed and “represent opinion.”Return to text
[28] For example, Marshall Institute reports on ozone and climate change make policy recommendations based on the “scientific” conclusion that policy actions are not justified. As noted in the text, infra, such a conclusion is a policy, not a scientific, conclusion. Other policy matters are included in the Marshall reports as well. In “The Ozone Crisis,” Dr. Baliunas extensively discusses the economic impacts of the CFC phase-out and the wisdom of the “precautionary principle” policy, concluding that the phase-out “appears both scientifically unjustified and unnecessarily costly.” At the hearing, however, Dr. Baliunas was much more restrained about her policy qualifications. She declined to state her position on the CFC phaseout: “It’s just that it involves a broader issue than the science. It involves the risk/benefits. And I can’t comment on those, and the second panel shall. It involves an economic question as well.”
Baliunas and Soon were still attacking the idea that the ozone layer was at risk from chlorofluorocarbons at the time the Nobel was presented for the science.
Hank Roberts // January 22, 2008 at 1:50 am |
A very complete list of links here:
http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/SHS-Web-links-all.html
dhogaza // January 22, 2008 at 10:00 am |
This makes for humorous reading, given that environmentalists are often chided for being “chicken littles” by opponents.
Who was being “chicken little” in this case? Where’s that economic catastrophe that was so widely predicted if we were to phase out CFCs?
People should remember this and other instances of “chicken little economics” when they read that any effort to reduce CO2 emissions will cause an economic crisis on a scale never seen before blah blah blah.
Alan Woods // January 23, 2008 at 3:44 am |
Give the melodrama a rest, dhogaza. Since when did saying something was “unnecessarily costly” equate to a prediction of “economic catastrophe”?
Hank Roberts // January 23, 2008 at 4:42 am |
Since, er, then? Alan, you really ought to read up on this one if you don’t remember it well. Lots out there like
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/reststory/bronfmanfreon.html
Heretic // January 23, 2008 at 6:57 am |
Sallie Baliunas, in her testimony to Congress, predicted that phasing out CFCs would cost “trillions.” She may not have used the exact words of economic catastrophe, but that was clearly what she believed would happen. This is obviously in some official records but it can also be found on the web, although I don’t remember where exactly (not enough time to archive everything, really).
J // January 23, 2008 at 4:15 pm |
Baliunas’s senate testimony is available here: http://johnquiggin.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/baliunas_report.pdf
The phrase “a short-term cost of $2 trillion will rip through the U.S. economy” might qualify as a prediction of “economic catastrophe”. In her testimony, Baliunas references a 1993 Congressional resolution.
Hank Roberts // January 23, 2008 at 4:40 pm |
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/01/steve_mcintyre_defends_pat_mic.php#comment-721621
That post has the link for a PDF copy of
“OZONE AND GLOBAL WARMING: ARE THE PROBLEMS REAL?~ Sallie Baliunas” (1994)
Marshall Institute, where she worked (works?), has somehow mislaid all references to and copies of this revealing 1994 paper they used to be so proud of, but copies have survived in the web archive and in Robert Parsons’s ozone archive.
See also: The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1995 “for their work in atmospheric chemistry, particularly concerning the formation and decomposition of ozone”
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1995/
Hank Roberts // January 23, 2008 at 4:46 pm |
Oh, do click through the links at the above-linked Nobel page and read Crutzen’s lecture, in particular, under the heading THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE where he
“brings up the nightmarish thought that if the chemical industry had developed
organobromine compounds instead of the CFCs – or alternatively, if chlorine chemistry would have run more like that of bromine – then without any preparedness, we would have been faced with a catastrophic ozone hole everywhere and at all seasons during the 1970s, probably before the atmospheric
chemists had developed the necessary knowledge to identify the problem and the appropriate techniques for the necessary critical measurements. Noting that nobody had given any thought to the atmospheric consequences of the release of Cl or Br before 1974, I can only conclude that mankind has been extremely lucky, that Cl activation can only occur under very special circumstances. This shows that we should always be on our guard for the potential consequences of the release of new products into the environment. Continued surveillance of the composition of the stratosphere, therefore, remains a matter of high priority for many years ahead.”
Words from the wise.
Hank Roberts // January 23, 2008 at 8:32 pm |
J — misattribution; the link you post from Quiggin’s page isn’t Senate testimony, though it may resemble it. It’s the same document I posted at Deltoid; It’s identified as
“Edited remarks by Dr. Sallie Baliunas at the West-Coast Roundtable for Science and Public Policy, December 13,1994.”
Keep looking? Worth finding.
Hank Roberts // January 23, 2008 at 8:34 pm |
Ding. Wikipedia had this among much else I haven’t looked at, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallie_Baliunas
From a footnote:
http://epw.senate.gov/107th/Baliunas_031302.htm
Ulric Lyons // January 27, 2008 at 12:38 pm |
Hank, your question: When someone claims the major planets are lining up, are they looking at a flat 2-D plot, or a 3-D alignment?
Radial alignment is clearly most important, and will trigger an uplift in solar wind whether from sunspots or coronal holes. The latter occurred mid January 2008 and gave a very mild mid January in the UK, and high temperatures in South America and Australia. The next set of alignments are minor, on the 2/6/9/10th Febuary, involving Mercury, and will not be so warming as the mid January alignment, or stronger alignments of Earth/Saturn and Venus/Jupiter on the 24th and 28th of Feb. The closer the Planets are together horizontally at radial syzygies, the more intense the alignment will be, as in a Venus transit for example.
Hank Roberts // March 5, 2008 at 7:18 am |
Yup. So far predictions fail.
http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2008/03/corbynwatch_shhh.php
Ulric Lyons // March 8, 2008 at 6:03 pm |
Hank, Piers has been having problems with his temperature forecasts in recent months, my own forecasts showed very cold conditions starting mid November, till an unusually warm week from mid January.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/uah_msu_feb2008.png
For the UK, I forecast the mean February temp. to be less than Jan. At a weekly level, I have not had a failed forecast yet. Although we are both working with Solar activity, our methods do differ.
Ulric Lyons // March 8, 2008 at 9:21 pm |
Hank, yes Piers has had some problems with temperature forecasts in recent months, mine have been on target though.
Hank Roberts // April 2, 2008 at 12:54 am |
Answering Kim’s question:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Svalgaard+Maunder+sunspot&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&scoring=r&as_ylo=2003
and in particular
http://www.agu.org/cgi-bin/wais?jj=GC31B-0351
kim // April 2, 2008 at 1:09 am |
Well, Hank, yes and no. Your first link is about solar wind, and the second TSI. Neither explore the Maunder. I know Leif is skeptical about the solar effect on climate, but largely because the mechanism is not explicated, and seems to be impossible, because of the energies involved. As you may know, Erl Happ has lots of ideas about the complex interplay of the aerospheres, and clouds, and water vapor.
We do not understand all the workings of the heat engine that is the atmospheric dynamics and the oceanic oscillations. There is plenty of room for amplification of the sun’s effects in the interplay of those forces. Look at the energies involved in the phase changes of water, and the opacity changes in the forming and dissipating of clouds.
I might be wrong. We’ll never figure it out unless we question the current dogma. There is plenty of evidence that we have started a cooling trend. Help figure it out.
==================
Hank Roberts // April 2, 2008 at 1:19 am |
Kim, you’re not reading the posts before you declaim what you believe.
Look at the second one, and use the search tool if you don’t find the word Maunder. Then look at the references to that paper and discussion earlier in thread here.
Then look back at Leif’s postings in this thread, or go to his home page, or both.
I am assuming you really need as much help as you’re asking for.
I don’t see you making the effort. Leif’s here off and on, he’ll likely answer you if you ask questions that show you’re reading what he wrote.
luminous beauty // April 2, 2008 at 2:58 am |
Kim,
“There is plenty of evidence that we have started a cooling trend.”
No there isn’t. Pay attention. One strong La Niña ten years after a very strong El Niño does not a trend make. There is a reason these oceanic indices are called oscillations.
Hank Roberts // April 2, 2008 at 3:11 am |
Basic rule of statistics — when you know what you’re looking for before you collect the data, you will fool yourself into finding what you want. This is demonstrated over and over when amateurs go reading in science for support for their beliefs.