Open Mind

Hemispheres

August 17, 2007 · 149 Comments

Throughout the 20th century, global average temperature shows an interesting evolution. From about 1915 to about 1944, temperature rose. Then from about 1944 to 1951, global temperature declined. It remained roughly constant from about 1951 to about 1975, and since then it has risen sharply.

globe.jpg

People often wonder why the planet didn’t warm from 1944 to 1975. Denialists often say that the planet actually cooled for 30 years or more, but this is simply not so; the cooling was confined to a brief period (about 1944 to 1951), followed by relative stability for several decades. But the question remains, with man-made CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere, why did the planet not warm for several decades mid-century?


The answer is that during that time, the warming from man-made greenhouse gases was offset by the cooling from man-made aerosols. Aerosols are tiny particles which remain suspended in the atmosphere for several days to weeks if they’re in the troposphere (the lower part of earth’s atmosphere), or several years if they’re in the stratosphere (the upper part of earth’s atmosphere). They tend to block incoming sunlight from reaching earth, thereby cooling earth’s climate.

Much of man-made aerosols are sulfates emitted by industrial activity; the boom in industrial production late in world war II, and during the post-war era, caused them to become a potent climate-forcing agent. Man-made aerosols are generally confined to the troposphere, so they settle out in a matter of days to weeks, but if they’re being continually replenished their climate forcing effect can be persistent. In addition to acting as a climate forcing agent, sulfate aerosols are also responsible for acid rain; that’s why in the 1960s-1970s environmental regulations were enacted to limit their emission, and man-made aerosols declined. Since tropospheric aerosols settle out of the atmosphere before they can disperse worldwide, their environmental impact is concentrated in the geographic region in which they’re produced.

Aerosols can also be injected into the atmosphere by volcanic explosions; for massive explosions the aerosols can be blasted into the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, where they can disperse worldwide, and it takes years for them to settle out of the air. Hence large volcanic explosions have a distinct cooling effect on the climate; the most recent such event was the explosion of the Mt. Pinatubo volcano, which caused global temperature to take a nose-dive for a couple of years afterward.

CO2 stays in the atmosphere a long time; it’s “residence time” is better measured in centuries than years. Hence it tends to mix throughout the planetary atmosphere (with a “mixing time” of about 7 or 8 months), and its warming impact is truly global. Also, because they’re so persistent, even after emissions stop it takes a long time for the atmosphere to return to its undisturbed state; the warming effect of CO2 is both global and persistent.

If man-made aerosols were responsible for the cessation of global warming mid-century (which they were), and the climate effect of man-made aerosols tends to be concentrated in the region of emission (which it does), and the vast majority of industrial activity is in the northern hemisphere (which it is), then the mid-century cooling impact of aerosols should be concentrated in the northern hemisphere. Because of this, the question arose recently on the RealClimate blog concerning the different warming/cooling between the northern and southern hemispheres throughout the 20th century. Let’s take a look at what the data tell us about the differences in 20th-century temperature evolution between the northern and southern hemispheres.

NASA GISS, in addition to estimating global average temperature, also estimates average temperature separately for the two hemispheres. In an earlier post I showed the difference between the hemispheres, based on data for land-only stations in the two hemispheres. Here’s the temperature evolution of the two hemispheres using both land and ocean data (northern hemisphere in red, southern in blue):

hemis.jpg

The “smooth” versions show that while the northern hemisphere did indeed cool for several decades mid-century, the southern hemisphere did not — exactly what we would expect from sulfate-aerosol forcing. In fact, the smoothed version tends to smooth the very brief southern-hemisphere cooling a little too much; the annual numbers show that the southern hemisphere mid-century cooling is pretty much confined to a single year, from 1945 to 1946. If we smooth the southern-hemisphere temperature data in two separate pieces, up to 1945, and from 1946 onward, we get this:

hemis2.jpg

It’s evident that the northern hemisphere shows decades of cooling mid-century, the effect of man-made aerosols. But the southern hemisphere shows only a single year of notable cooling; besides the 1945-1946 cooling event, the southern hemisphere shows consistent warming throughout the century.

Categories: Global Warming · climate change

149 responses so far ↓

  • ks // August 17, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    I have very little exposure to SH trends. Do you know what happened (or where an answer can be found) circa 1946 in the SH that caused such a disconnect in the trend?

    [Response: No, I don't know. If I had to guess, it would be that the peak of warming in 1944 involved a strong el Nino, and the subsiding of that el Nino caused both hemispheres to cool. But that's just a guess.]

  • N. Johnson // August 17, 2007 at 11:03 pm

    If it were caused by ENSO, you would expect to see evidence of a similar disconnect during other ENSO events.

  • Petro // August 18, 2007 at 3:52 am

    The sudden drop in the SH temperature anomalies begs for explanation. Could this drop be an indication of some unknown feedback kicking in? I think revealing the reason for your discovery would be scientifically most interesting.

    Great work!

  • Mike // August 18, 2007 at 4:42 am

    It’s only a guess but there seems to have been an active volcano in New Zealand in 1945…
    http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/NaturalHazardsAndDisasters/HistoricVolcanicActivity/4/en

  • SomeBeans // August 18, 2007 at 6:26 am

    The discontinuity in the Southern Hemisphere does look a bit odd. Although this site:
    http://coaps.fsu.edu/lib/elninolinks/
    shows cold phase El Nino for 5 consecutive years 1945-49 which was an exceptional run. ‘54-56 are also cold phase.

    I’m thinking there may be an interesting plot to do whereby a ‘modified’ Southern Hemisphere temperature is plotted by adding an offset related to the phase and size of the El Nino for a year.

  • Anonymous (kind of) // August 18, 2007 at 8:17 am

    While the aerosol hypothesis about the difference between hemispheres sounds plausible, and could (maybe) be further tested by analyzing smaller regions, the piece-wise smoothing model seems a bit artificial.

    Does the piece-wise model explain your data better than the continuous one, given increased degrees of freedom? (AIC, DIC, etc.) Even if it did, it could be a coincidence as we have no idea why.

    [Response: The piecewise-smoothing model does indeed fit the data significantly better than the continuous one, and I reduced the degrees of freedom in each "piece" so that the total d.f. were the same for both models. However, we expect physical variables to be continuous; the piecewise model is just a mathematical convenience. It seems to me to be just a convenient way to characterize what is a continuous phenomenon that happens to have a brief, rapid drop, the discontinuity which it includes should not be taken too seriously. Most smoothing methods don't simulate brief rapid changes in an otherwise slowly-evolving signal very well; a low-pass filter, e.g., actually prohibits it!

    As for why there is such a brief, rapid drop -- that seems to me to be a very interesting question!]

  • Steve Bloom // August 18, 2007 at 8:45 am

    This new paper is interesting. If it holds up, it would modify the mid-20th century cooling discussion somewhat, although there are larger implications. Don’t pay attention to where it’s housed; the fact that Lubos used it as a basis for one of his frantic irrational tears doesn’t necessarily reflect on the paper. Tsonis himself is legit AFAIK.

  • Steve Bloom // August 18, 2007 at 8:57 am

    Forgot to mention that there’s also a new paper in Science Express (Flanner et al) last week showing that the excess Arctic warmth of the early 20th century was a result of soot emission from the U.S. and Canada. The effect would have been regional but still enough to bump up the NH trend noticably and make the mid-century relative cooling appear more substantial than it really was.

  • Heiko Gerhauser // August 18, 2007 at 9:31 am

    http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/06/observations-show-climate-sensitivity.html

    A long, long discussion of the subject in Coby Beck’s comments section.

    I think it’s quite difficult to interpret the data, there’s too much uncertainty in both the measured temperatures and the estimated forcings.

    Coby was so kind to provide this link to a graph of the estimated forcings.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Climate_Change_Attribution.png

    One thing that jumps out is the rather large impact of volcanoes in the period.

    It’s also interesting that the great depression resulted in a big drop in aerosol emissions, which co-incided with the 1930’s peak in US temperatures.

    And now let me get to my main point. Aerosols aren’t just a neat little item to get temperature history to agree with models, and otherwise of no public policy importance and to be forgotten about. Their present forcing is nearly as large as that of CO2. AR4 gives forcings of 1.66 W/m2 and 1.2 W/m2 as the central estimates for CO2 and aerosols respectively (with huge uncertainty for aerosols, the top end of the uncertainty range is 2.7 W/2).

    http://groups.google.com/group/globalchange/browse_thread/thread/cbe22ce1dae48e27

    http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf

    Or in other words, a reduction to zero for aerosol emissions will have nearly the same effect on temperatures as going back to pre-industrial CO2 levels.

    That’s huge and means that efforts to reduce aerosol emissions in China will have an enormous impact on temperatures. On the other hand, the enormous expansion of coal power in China over the last half decade may have the effect of masking GHG’s again, if it co-incides with large sulfate emissions. Also, there’s a huge range for current anthropogenic emissions, and large uncertainty about past trends:

    http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Pub_Ch02.pdf

  • KenH // August 18, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    Re: Steve Bloom

    I don’t know much about Tsonis, but the National Post recently had an article about him under Lawrence Solomon’s denialist series -
    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=288ba340-98f9-4fbe-8412-acf920b32604
    If Tsonis is not a denialist, it wouldn’t be the first time a non-denialist has been portrayed as a denialist in this series.

  • John Mashey // August 18, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    Great analysis & thread.

    Like I’ve suggested before in another thread here, it is well worth using GISS’ little volcano & ENSO icons, as in http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/, Figure 2.

    Personally, I’d be happy *never* to see another temperature trend chart that failed to include such, at the minimum. [Of course, I understand it is unlikely that standard graphing software has little volcano icons :-)]

    At the very least, that might lessen the amount of wasted discussion where people see dips or jumps and draw strong conclusions from them, pick them as endpoints in series, or assume that nobody understands why they were happening, and therefore there is no long-term trend.

    We have a climate system in which discrete, short-term events can easily generate year-to-year swings of .2-.3C on top of other natural variability. Even though we can’t predict those events very far in advance, and even though we don’t have modern measurements for their effects very far in the past, and even though ENSOs differ in intensity, and for older ones, not everyone agrees about the intensity, it is well worth identifying these events for context.

  • george // August 18, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    There was actually a plateau in greenhouse gas forcing from about 1940-1950, as shown here.

    That would not account for the cooling in the northern hemisphere, of course, but if the forcing had continued to increase over that period the northern hemisphere cooling would almost certainly have been less pronounced (perhaps even non-existent).

  • Anon456 // August 18, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Nuclear Winter it Was

    That’s it. I am convinced now, that the atomic bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 perfectly explain the behavior seen in the split (.,1945] and [1946,.) plots for the Southern hemisphere, i.e. this plot.

    Nagasaki mushroom was 18 km high, piercing through the tropopause over Japan and injecting massive amounts of aerosols into the stratosphere in addition to the tropospheric additions, as I see it. i.e. we have experienced a small sized "nuclear winter" from the atomic bomb droppings.

    Has anyone studied the impact of the nuclear bombs on the temperature record closely. Have the amounts of aerosols introduced been quantified thoroughly? Or is this, I feel compelled to ask because this is so obviously notable, something that NASA doesn't want to be looked at, for political reasons?
    (reposting in case the earlier one didn't show up. Please approve the earlier version if that came through. Thanks.)

    [Response: I considered this idea some time ago, and I think it's been pondered by others as well. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't the only nuclear explosions, there were plenty of above-ground tests through the 50s and 60s, and if I recall correctly, the ups and downs of global temperature don't correspond very well with the timing of those tests (whether or not one includes the "size" as indicated by megatonnage). I'm also curious about the impact of firestorms from the massive *conventional* bombing campaigns late in the war. I haven't yet seen convincing evidence of the notable impact of wartime activity on global temperature; not to say there isn't one, just that I'm not yet convinced.]

  • John Mashey // August 19, 2007 at 5:55 am

    1) This reasoning sounds like it came from ponderthemaunder, only less detailed. Do you find that a reliable source?

    The idea has bounced around for a while; it’s been on John Daly’s website, etc, many people strongly wish for human-generated sulfates not to have any effect, so it’s been looked at many a time.

    2) The two bombs dropped on Japan were 13 and 21 kilotons, smaller or far smaller than most of those done later (especially H-bombs), and in any case, most (not all) aboveground tests ended ~1963.

  • Anon456 // August 19, 2007 at 6:33 am

    Hello tamino:

    But Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren’t the only nuclear explosions, there were plenty of above-ground tests through the 50s and 60s

    The key, is seems to me is whether those tests were in the deep interiors (so that there is plenty of debris that can rise) instead of land close to the ocean (such as archipelagos and atolls) and whether the explosion mushroom reaches and penetrates the stratosphere.

    Apparently, all nuclear tests since the partial TBT in 1963 have been underground.

    I see, from a preliminary look, some similarities between Mt. Pinatubo’s eruption and Nagasaki bombing. A quantitative comparison (in terms of amounts and types of aerosols injected into tropo/strato spheres) would be very helpful for this.

    Thanks.

  • EG // August 19, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    I like the depth of the postings here, but I find the use of words such as ‘denialists’ and ‘deniers’ a little polemical. It chimes with ‘Holocaust deniers’, doesn’t it? Why not settle on a word that could be used to describe people of good faith who, even if misguided, have a different point of view? ‘Sceptics’, with its flaws, is better.

    [Response: I'm glad you enjoy the science, that's why I blog.

    I've never seen or heard any advocate of addressing the global warming problem refer to, or even hint at, linking "denialist" or "denier" with the holocaust. I've only seen that from denialists, who seem to want to discredit advocates by suggesting that they liken global-warming denialists to holocaust deniers.

    And let's be perfectly, absolutely, unambiguously clear about this: I do *not* use "denialist" or "denier" to denote people of good faith. For those, I would indeed describe them as "skeptics." I use "denialist" specifically to mean those who are *not* of good faith; they're in denial.]

  • John Mashey // August 19, 2007 at 3:45 pm

    Anon456:
    You have a hypothesis.
    Tamino has already said he doesn’t know.
    Why don’t *you* Google away and find data that might support your hypothesis? and post citations?

  • NU // August 19, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    Anon456: you may want to look at this reference concerning the climatic effects of nuclear bombs; also, this paper.

    But please, can you spare us the political conspiracy theories?

  • DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 3:13 am

    Your data does not show a “brief, rapid drop” — it shows a drop that while rapid was also persisting. That is, the drop did not reverse itself in the following year or two. Your graphic discontinuity did not merely smooth out or eliminate an anomalous year, it effectively achieved almost the same effect (smoothed line) as would happen if you moved all the subsequent data downward by that amount. You could do almost as much with the Northern Hemisphere and some nearby years, to equally bogus effect.

  • John Mashey // August 20, 2007 at 4:12 am

    EG:
    Perhaps you are new to this.
    My standard comment is that this is one of those 3-sided arguments, with the sides best described as:

    - “Alarmists”, i.e., who of various ideological reasons thought we should simplify life and that GW would be The End, were far ahead of the science in thinking so, and have sometimes been prone to enough exaggeration to drive people into the other extreme, which is:

    - “Denialist”, typically for economic reasons (there must be no conservation of fossil fuels) or ideological reasons (don’t want government interference) do not want science to work, especially when it gives inconvenient answers. They wish to be called skeptics (an honorable term), and tend to label anyone who disagrees as alarmists, hence:
    Google: james hansen alarmist
    gets 58K hits.

    - Real skeptics, i.e., scientists and other who look at hard at evidence, i.e., skeptic in the classic sense, not in the sense of “I don’t believe it and I won’t no matter what the evidence.”

    The first group tends to political left, the second to political right, and the 3rd group apolitical or all over the place, or in some cases, driven from right or center leftward by recent government policies.

    A real skeptic enumerates their reasons for doubt, and then:
    - as they learn more
    - as data piles up
    - as inconsistencies disappear
    - as conflicting theories get disproved

    they are willing to change their ideas, whereas denialists change their reasons for believing the same thing. For example, I purposefully started skpetical of AGW (to give the NO side a good chance), spent an hour a day for years following things, and evidence kept mounting. For example, at one point, my list included “It is puzzling that satellites say cooling and ground stations say warming. Either one of them was wrong, or there’s a new physical principle.” Then, errors were found in the satellite calculations. All this is a normal part of science.

    HOWEVER
    There is an active, well-connected denialism machine, of funders, think-tanks, PR agencies, lobbyists, and a few scientists (albeit ones who rarely if ever actually publish peer-reviewed climate research), who churn out disinformation. The machine really fired up with the efforts by tobacco companies to avoid smoking-disease links, and the tactics, and quite often, the same people carried over into acid rain, environmental regulations, CFC-ozone, and AGW.

    If you are person of good will, who doubts humans are causing the current warming (say 1975), try posting the N reasons, which if removed, would make you think AGW rather likely. (The same reasons pop up all the time, and any knowledgable person could quickly point you at relevant postings, websites, and posters.)

    If you don’t believe denialists exist, I’ll happily post you a roadmap so you can go learn who they are and how they work, but post your objections-list first. Some of the same people worked very hard, paid by Philip Morris or RJ Reynolds to fend off regulation of cigarettes by obfuscating the science. For that side, I recommend Allan Brandt’s “The Cigarette Century”, which is especially useful because in that case, there is public access to a lot of internal documents.

  • Julian Flood // August 20, 2007 at 10:57 am

    You are struggling, in my opinion, with the end of the Kreigesmarine effect: as the oil covering the NH oceans slowly dispersed, and the leaching from the bunker oil tailed off, the warm pulse instigated a feedback of DMS which boosted the albedo by producing more stratocumulus cloud. Only when industry began to fire up again ( and I think I can just make out the Suez canal closure in the record, but that may well be wishful thinking) does the oil spill level climb and damp down the biology and the mechanical CCN production. Try your graphs using non Folland-Parker adjusted SSTs and see what the results look like. Doing it for for both hemispheres would be good.

    I was interested to see that the quoted wiki article model fails to account for a temperature spike in the 39-45 period (take off the adjustments and smoothing to see it more clearly).

    The albedo is falling. Google on Palle/ (that’s an acute e) to see a presentation where he states that the increased forcing (6-7 W/m^2 in 15 years!) from albedo change dwarfs the CO2 input (and, in this context, the sulphate - unless the aerosols are the cause of the albedo change of course.)

    Albedo change is what’s going on — but I would say that, as my oil sheen hypothesis of global warming needs that to be so. However, at least I can explain the WWII hump.

    JF

  • DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 11:59 am

    Oops, that should be
    “all the subsequent data UPward by that amount.”

  • DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 3:03 pm

    John Mashey:
    You of course are resorting to ad hominems yourself, rather than sticking to the science. That said, I’ll acknowledge that most people do not have the knowledge or intelligence to stick to first principles, and so have to rate the credibility of various experts and rely on them to at least an extent.

    Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife, but I think pointing that out is fair rejoinder after all the claims of a denialist machine funding disingenuous skeptics.

    Would you name some names, rather than just claim that “Some of the same people” who lied for big tobacco are now GW deniers? Scientists would be a lot more meaningful on this score than PR companies, but I’ll take whatever you’ve got.

  • Dano // August 20, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife, but I think pointing that out is fair rejoinder after all the claims of a denialist machine funding disingenuous skeptics.

    Evidence plz.

    Best to show a non-NewsMax card if you have one.

    Best,

    D

  • John Mashey // August 20, 2007 at 11:01 pm

    DWPitelli:
    1) This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers was used, and I explained. I also didn’t use the phrase “lied for big tobacco” … although I wouldn’t disagree.

    Naomi Oreskes (well-known science historian) gave a fine talk on this:
    http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/march21/oreskes-032107.html
    Plenty of other people know all this.

    Tobacco & AGW: easy, let me pick a few for starts. I’m in the middle of running a conference, so I’ve just got a few minutes, and none of the books I’ve got at home, so off the top of my head. *’d are scientists.

    People:
    Frederick Seitz *
    S. Fred Singer*
    Steven Milloy

    Entities ( a small sample)
    George C. Marshall Institute
    SEPP
    Competitive Enterprise Institute
    CATO Institute
    Fraser Institute (Canada)

    http://www.sourcewatch.org and wikipedia are useful to look these up in, and in particular, they track funding, somewhat.

    http://www.desmogblog.com/node/1272 is sometimes useful.

    Also, Google:

    Frederick Seitz X
    Fred Singer X

    (where X = either RJ Reynolds or Exxonmobil)

    steven milloy Y
    (where Y = philip morris or exxonmobil)

    fraser institute Z
    (where Z = philip morris, exxon, or
    charles koch foundation)

    Even more than specific people, the tactics honed in the cigarette wars were carried over. There is a big network of the entities, with interlocking directorates & writers ,some of which are astroturf fronts.

    Anyway, nothing ad hominem at all, merely a straightforward answer to a question about the players.

  • DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 12:56 am

    Dano,

    Please tell me you are not really asking me for evidence that Hansen received $250,000 from John Kerry’s wife. The “Heinz award” is indeed such, Hansen has written about it, it is no secret that Hansen has received it and it amounts to exactly that sum, and it is well documented at the Heinz awards site, elsewhere on the web, and in newspapers.

    “Best to show a non-NewsMax card” indeed.

    I agree it would be baseless to charge that Hansen is an AGW alarmist because of this payment. But it would also be foolish to claim he would have gotten that cash award even if he were more skeptical or agnostic on AGW.

  • Dano // August 21, 2007 at 1:17 am

    This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers

    We should clarify that ad hom is used/malused as a shorthand pejorative.

    Ad hom: your argument is cr*p because you are an idiot.

    NOT ad hom: your argument is cr*p because of x, y, z. And, BTW, you are an idiot.

    But anyway, we anxiously await two things now:

    1. Pitelli’s scathing denunciation of people who use ‘alarmist’ or ‘concencus science’ [misspelled purposely].

    2. Evidence that Hansen took that money from Kerry.

    Best,

    D

  • DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 1:35 am

    John Mashey:
    This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers was used, and I explained.

    An argument based on the competence, funding or financial motivation of opponents is by definition an ad hominem argument. That does not necessarily make the argument invalid or improper. Notably, when one side in an argument is making an argument from authority, the ad hominem argument is generally the most logical rejoinder. But in the context of a blog on AGW science, where the level of detail attempted should allow actual arguments about the science of AGW, it is rather pointless to make claims about the other side’s motivations.

    I also didn’t use the phrase “lied for big tobacco” … although I wouldn’t disagree.

    And I didn’t put quotes around “lied for big tobacco” — but I stand by it as an accurate characterization of your position, as do you apparently.

    As you point out, position on AGW is largely determined by left-right ideology. You did succeed in showing this with your list of right-wing organizations which apparently supported tobacco and also deny AGW. This is of course about as relevant and as persuasive as the claim that AGW alarmists are all socialists (or the “political left”).

    As far as scientists are concerned, your “few scientists” is a good example of the exception that proves the rule:

    First, it is a mere two people.

    Second, S. Fred Singer is 82 years old, and Frederick Seitz is a 96-year-old man, considered senile by RJ Reynolds since 1989.

    Third, their defense of tobacco, judging from Wikipedia, appears to be limited to attacking the government’s claims on second-hand smoke. The reason tobacco-harm-denialism is legitimately used as an example of outrageousness to discredit its claimants is not because of the peripheral issue of second-hand smoke.

    Fourth, we are not discussing the claims of these two men, but rather those of people such as McIntyre, McKitrick, and various other amateur and professional scientists and bloggers.

    If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who “churn out disinformation” on tobacco and AGW denial, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended.

  • DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 2:55 am

    Dano,

    1) I don’t see ‘greenhouse alarmist’ as any more or less offensive than ‘greenhouse denier,’ although personally I see myself as more of a ‘greenhouse agnostic.’ None of these categories warrant comparison with such as people who believe that the earth is flat, court jesters, people who claim to believe that smoking is harmless, etc.

    2) I will assume you are merely lazy and not obtuse:

    See e.g.,
    http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20010305/

    NASA Goddard Scientist to Receive Heinz Award
    Mar. 5, 2001
    Dr. Jim Hansen, Chief of the Goddard Space Flight Center’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, N.Y., and one of this year’s recipients of a $250,000 Heinz Award, receives his award tonight at a ceremony at the Folger Shakespeare Library in Washington, D.C.

  • Eli Rabett // August 21, 2007 at 3:23 am

    First of all the largest atmospheric nuclear tests were in the 50s and involved fusion weapons. The US tests were held in the Pacific, at a number of small atolls. The Russian tests I believe were done in desert areas of the USSR. A LOT of stuff flew into the air, and some of these tests were serious multimegatonish.

  • Eli Rabett // August 21, 2007 at 3:30 am

    We have seen this before in the controversy about whether tobacco causes cancer. The tobacco companies bought cover from pseudo scientists and health policy types while their customers died at increasing rates. Documents revealed in the following litigation showed how a few scientists such as Fredrick Seitz sold out. Their tactic was to generate a fog of a false uncertainty. Links between the “tobacco group” and many peddling the climate line show that they are one and the same and what they are peddling is disinformation.

    If you want to get more information on this, go to the archive of documents revealed in the tobacco litigation http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/ and google on Seitz, or Singer, or Lindzen. You could also search more broadly in http://tobaccodocuments.org

    It is amusing to search the various names of those who deny serious risk from global climate change into this search engine. OTOH, ask yourself why this climate related article turns up in the material that Philip Morris turned over in discovery.

    Decreasing cancer mortality and illness depended on educating people about the risks. Education and study were enemies of the tobacco companies, and they used their resources to lie to the public. Seitz and Singer among others helped They also recruited a younger generation. The risks from anthropic climate change also depends on education and cooperation. Seitz and Singer and their merry younger elves are happy to spread uncertainty and doubt.

    Apres moi le deluge seems an appropriate motto for their club.

  • cce // August 21, 2007 at 6:58 am

    No one is questioning that Hansen won the Heinz Award. The question is the convoluted logic that somehow makes it a “fair rejoinder”. Unless Hansen truly is clairvoyant, he didn’t spend 30 years working on climate science with the expectation that he would win a $250,000 award.

    Contrast this with think tanks and “scientists” who receive payment-as-they-go from the “doubt is our business” industries for the purpose of putting out gibberish for public consumption.

  • Dano // August 21, 2007 at 11:56 am

    Ooooohhh!

    Receiving award = writing articles for pay/stipend for website/salary.

    Who knew?

    Best,

    D

  • Chris O'Neill // August 21, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    “If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who “churn out disinformation” on tobacco and AGW denial, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended”, referring to Singer and Seitz.

    It’s interesting that under slightly different cicumstances, the following statement could be applied.

    “If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who supply information on tobacco and AGW scepticism, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended.”

  • DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 8:04 pm

    Dano, cce, et al:

    1) Again, exactly two scientists, both over age 80, have been named. Neither has done any research which any of us are discussing.

    2) I was not being facetious when I said “Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife.” I don’t.

    3) Do any of you have reason to believe that, say, McIntyre and McKitrick are propounding disingenuous views because of payments from oil companies? (Or in the past, from tobacco companies?)

    4) If a $10,000 paid-for document comes out, you are free to attack it on the merits, as well as on the incentives provided by the funding. I do not believe that we are currently debating any such documents (e.g., that Climate Audit’s entries were so funded).

    5) I don’t think the people claiming the existence of a nefariously funded “denialist machine” would change their tune if the denialist funding came in the form of $250,000 payments called “prizes” or “awards.”

  • george // August 21, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    “Receiving award = writing articles for pay/stipend for website/salary”

    Ah, yes, the devastating “ad Hansenem” argument:

    “Because of the Heinz award, Hansen is now forever beholden to Teresa Heinz Kerry and must do whatever she asks him to (as long as John is OK with it, of course).”

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 12:11 am

    Again, exactly two scientists, both over age 80, have been named.

    Lindzen, as well, who is still a prof at MIT.

    Neither has done any research which any of us are discussing.

    You’re right about them both being old, but the anti-AGW machine’s been running about 20 years now. Both of S&S were very active parts of that machine in the 1990s despite, as you so kindly point out, they’ve done nothing to give them expertise in the area.

    I’m not at all clear as to why you mention research at all, though. The denialist game plan isn’t to fund research - they know that legitimate research will support, rather than weaken, the science they are trying to discredit.

    The game plan is to fund people with impressive titles following their name, to try to fool the public into believing that legitimate scientists are wrong.

    I suspect you know all this, though …

  • DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 1:05 am

    dhogaza,

    1) The point of an ad hominem argument is to discredit the other side’s argument, which can make sense to the extent the other side is using an argument from authority. I don’t see a lot of arguments from authority on this specialist blog.

    2) From Wikipedia:
    A 1991 article in Consumers’ Research entitled “Passive Smoking: How Great a Hazard?” is also sometimes used to characterize Richard Lindzen as a tobacco spokesperson or expert. That article says, “Richard Lindzen, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has emphasized that problems will arise where we will need to depend on scientific judgement, and by ruining our credibility now we leave society with a resource of some importance diminished. The implementation of public policies must be based on good science, to the degree that it is available, and not on emotion or on political needs. Those who develop such policies must not stray from sound scientific investigations, based only on accepted scientific methodologies.” The article concludes with the statement, “Such has not always been the case with environmental tobacco smoke.”[22] However, Lindzen is not being directly quoted in the article, and the pro-tobacco views in that case are those of the article’s authors, not necessarily Lindzen.

    Perhaps you have something more damning in mind.

  • DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 1:11 am

    On this site, I believe we are more interested in people doing research (such as McIntyre and McKitrick), than in hidebound seniors who used to be real scientists.

    I share your disgust with “scientists” who use their “impressive titles” to make claims about which they are not expert, especially but not only if this is due to monetary incentive.

  • Boris // August 22, 2007 at 1:26 am

    “Do any of you have reason to believe that, say, McIntyre and McKitrick are propounding disingenuous views because of payments from oil companies?”

    Not necessarily, but to things to clear up on M&M.

    First, they are often cited by the “denial machine” (check out Townhall’s interview with McI. The Headline is “NASA blocked climate blogger from data.”). The “denial machine” exaggerates anything that they do. M&M exaggerate anything that they do. It’s a kind of symbiotic relationship. Perhaps they are unpaid, but merely “useful.”

    Second, neither has added anything to the scientific understanding of AGW aside from a small correction to the surface temp data. If some on the right wing had not decided that global warming was a socialist plot, you would certainly not have heard of them at all.

  • Alan Woods // August 22, 2007 at 3:26 am

    Tamino, you wrote:

    “And let’s be perfectly, absolutely, unambiguously clear about this: I do *not* use “denialist” or “denier” to denote people of good faith. For those, I would indeed describe them as “skeptics.” I use “denialist” specifically to mean those who are *not* of good faith; they’re in denial.

    Tamino, do you maintain your assertion that Roger Pielke Sr is not of good faith?

    He writes in his blog:
    “In terms of my view on added CO2, it is a major human climate forcing, but not the only significant one. Indeed, its radiative forcing does not appear to be most important in terms of how regional weather and other climate components are altered.”

    I can understand that you might disagree with him, but to say he is a ‘denialist’ as you did in an earlier thread is quite remarkable.

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 3:37 am

    On this site, I believe we are more interested in people doing research

    Yes, of course.

    (such as McIntyre and McKitrick)

    Why did you ruin your sentence by including them?

    They’re not doing research, they’re trying to discredit valid research.

    They’re wrong on the hockey stick, as has been laboriously pointed out to them, and McIntyre continues to claim that he’s “debunked” it (despite the National Academy of Sciences panel saying, in essence, “he’s full of shit”).

    In this past week, he’s had a photo of asphalt and buildings which he claims is the site of the Tucson Airport temp recording station, claiming “see how bad the data is they’re collecting?” despite being told it’s not there, and being shown google earth maps of where the station actually is (in the middle of a field, just as it should be).

    He has claimed that NASA singled him out and refused to give him data, after he spidered their site and their webmaster (reasonably enough) blocked him until he found out what was up (and afterwards, he was given access, but he still is telling the RW blogosphere that NASA was hiding their data and keeping it secret).

    And he continues to try to make a mountain out of a molehill with his statistically insignificant error found in the NASA-GISS surface temp data.

    This isn’t research as I understand it.

    Perhaps you have a different opinion.

    Oh, and Lindzen *did* lend his name to the anti-second hand tobacco smoke regulation crowd … an area of science in which he has zero expertise (see a pattern here?)

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 3:39 am

    Tamino, do you maintain your assertion that Roger Pielke Sr is not of good faith?

    He writes in his blog…

    He not only writes in his blog, he also testified more than once to congressional committees led by Republican anti-science types like Inhofe.

    And, ummm, see, he hasn’t always said things like that nice cherry-picked quote you’re presenting us.

  • Fielding Mellish // August 22, 2007 at 10:13 am

    “He writes in his blog: “In terms of my view on added CO2, it is a major human climate forcing, but not the only significant one. Indeed, its radiative forcing does not appear to be most important in terms of how regional weather and other climate components are altered.”” Excerpting that bare passage implies to me argument from authority and strikes me as an example of implied hedging characteristic of the directed disinformation campaign. Without context, the reader has no way of evalualting the thrust of the passage. It easily could be part of the larger thought that ‘we can’t yet forecast local weather in the short term based on global CO2 conditions,’ which has very little if anything to do with AGW, or it could precede the sweeping statement that ‘if the sun goes nova, CO2 won’t matter,’ for example. Without knowing on what authority the original author’s “my view” stands and what other GW forcings he equates in magnitude to CO2 released by human efforts, the implied message to the casual reader (a/the target for AGW disinformation) is that CO2 is nothing to worry about. I merely request that you supply more context, or at least linkage, when presenting inside baseball talk for consumption by the outside reader.

    Beyond that (and no longer discussing the quote from RP, Sr.), implicit or express uncertainty derived from or influenced by the afore-discussed core disinformation campaign still is tainted by that campaign. Contributory, secondary, and derivative disinformation is just as corrosive as the original direct disinformation; propaganda spread by unknowing aiders and abettors is just as destructive as the original. I suppose I figure that a person conveying disinformation is a disinformationist, despite their other redeeming qualities.

  • Dano // August 22, 2007 at 11:44 am

    but to say he is a ‘denialist’ as you did in an earlier thread is quite remarkable.

    Obfuscationist, then.

    With a fan base of hard-core denialists.

    Best,

    D

  • DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    Boris: (of M&M) “neither has added anything to the scientific understanding of AGW aside from a small correction to the surface temp data.”

    That alone would be something worthy of note. But it would be more accurate to say they have not done anything on AGW which the reigning scientific bodies have acknowledged, aside from a 0.15C correction to a few years of the US surface temp data.

    Unlike this so-called “y2K error” their critique of the hockey stick is sufficiently complicated that no one has had to concede anything publicly, and it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will.

    The attempts of M&M et al to require transparency in the “corrected” temperature record are, to my mind, quite important and likely to bear fruit. Results not sufficiently public to be reproduced are not science, but mere assertion.

    I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.

  • Chris O'Neill // August 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    “Again, exactly two scientists, both over age 80, have been named. Neither has done any research which any of us are discussing.”

    And very, very little research is done by anyone that casts any sort of doubt on AGW. Consequently, scepticism of AGW is based almost entirely on argument from authority. The authority depends substantially on two aged scientists who have done credible climate research a long time in the past, simply because there are so few sceptical authorities who have done climate research.

  • Simon D. // August 22, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    While I agree that the evidence suggested aerosols played a role in the northern hemisphere ‘cooling’ from the 40s to the 70s, your comparison of NH and SH temperatures does not rule out other possible causes: i) the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (forced by the THC?), and ii) land use changes, notably huge increase in irrigation, both of which would have had a disproportionate effect on NH temperatures.

    Also — if you want to evaluate the bomb testing, zoom in on Bikini or Enewtak in the Marhsall Is. using Google Earth. You can see several of the craters. The bombs were dropped on the atolls or in the shallow lagoons.

  • Dano // August 22, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    …it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will
    …I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.

    I’m beginning to think our bud DWP is a PR bot loosed from deep inside an advertising office somewhere.

    This advertising office being in the business for some time, as the signature recycled argumentation shows.

    IOW: the lather, rinse, repeat has the same ineluctable signature as, say, oxygen isotopes in ice or carbon isotopes in corn.

    Your are what you eat (or you are the FUD you purvey).

    Best,

    D

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Unlike this so-called “y2K error” their critique of the hockey stick is sufficiently complicated that no one has had to concede anything publicly

    No one has had to concede anything in public or private because M & M, despite all their blathering, are wrong. The claim that their work is too complex for the professional scientists and statisticians who refute them is bull****.

    and it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will.

    Not at all. M & M have lost that one.

    Not that it matters, of course. The hockey stick is *so* last millenium, after all. Real climate science has moved on, far past the hockey stick.

    The only reason you hear about the hockey stick is because denialists keep shouting …

    1. “the hockey stick is a fraud”

    and

    2. “this disproves the AGW hypothesis”

    #1 is wrong, and even if true, #2 would not follow.

    But Dano’s right, you’ve exposed yourself as being nothing more than a parrot repeating the same old tired stuff we’ve all heard a zillion times.

  • Steve Bloom // August 22, 2007 at 8:04 pm

    dhogaza, FYI the Congressional testimony has been from RP Jr. rather than RP Sr. Jr. is a political scientist who is on is on sabbatical just now, but his views can be seenhere. Based on this data, obfuscation appears to be a heritable trait.

  • caerbannog // August 22, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    DWP said,


    I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.

    The surface-station and satellite MSU data show very similar temperature trends for the past 3 decades.

    So I guess that UHI effects somehow have managed to contaminate the satellite data as well as the surface data. Do you have any ideas as to how that might have occurred?

  • DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    Now I understand. Getting photographs of temp sites and reverse-engineering temp “corrections” and finding a 0.15 C change in the US record for 6 years isn’t “science” — at least, when the wrong side is doing it.

    It would seem to me that for a GW alarmist to write that a 0.15 C change in the US record for 6 years is “statistically insignificant” is a pretty major climbdown right there. You sure you want to concede that level of noise in the data?

    The Tucson site certainly looks like an active weather station. Even if it is not, the photo and coordinates posted allowed such falsification, making the process, yes, readily falsifiable, unlike dhogaza’s claim re Tuscon.

    You can make a mistake and still be doing science. However, you can’t fail to make available the data which makes your claims falsifiable, and still be doing science. While the various correction concepts have been variously published, I do not believe that the temperature databases include any info on which specific corrections were done on each piece of temp data; one can only download the original and the corrected data and thus obtain the net effect of the several various corrections. (I would be happy to be shown to be wrong on this if you wish to include a URL.)

    Perhaps you don’t like the deniers using intemperate language or overstating their case. They should stick to the facts and not use arguments from authority or ad hominem. No, real scientists write things like:

    “What we have here is a case of dogged contrarians who present results in ways intended to deceive the public into believing that the changes have greater significance than reality. They aim to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I believe that these people are not stupid, instead they seek to create a brouhaha and muddy the waters in the climate change story. They seem to know exactly what they are doing and believe they can get away with it, because the public does not have the time, inclination, and training to discern what is a significant change with regard to the global warming issue….

    The contrarians will be remembered as court jesters… Court jesters serve as a distraction, a distraction from usufruct. Usufruct is the matter that the captains wish to deny, the matter that they do not want their children to know about.”

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 10:40 pm

    dhogaza, FYI the Congressional testimony has been from RP Jr. rather than RP Sr

    Ah, thanks, I confuse those two frequently, for some reason :)

    Now I understand. Getting photographs of temp sites and reverse-engineering temp “corrections” and finding a 0.15 C change in the US record for 6 years isn’t “science”

    Getting photographs of temp sites is not science, no.

    Nor did McIntyre “reserve engineer temp ‘corrections’ and find a 0.15C change…”

    McIntyre noticed something strange in the data, pointed out to NASA. NASA then figured out the source of the strangeness and computed the change.

    McIntyre smelled smokie. NASA put out the fire.

  • John Tofflemire // August 22, 2007 at 11:03 pm

    Although the hypothesis that an increase in aerosol emission was responsible for the cooling period the earth experienced from 1945 to 1975 is interesting, there is no scientific evidence that this is true. In fact, neither the degree nor the (positive-negative) sign of aerosols total radiative forcing effect has at present been ascertained. The IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report (page 169, Chapter 2 of the Physical Basis of Climate Change section) notes three satellite studies that estimate the direct radiative forcing for combined aerosols. Two of these three studies suggest, based on the reported confidence intervals of the estimations, that there is more than a 10% chance the actual total radiative forcing effect of human-based aerosols is positive. Although one study estimated a very clear negative total radiative forcing effect, the wide range of reported mean and standard deviation estimations led the IPCC FAR report to conclude that there is presently a “medium-low level of scientific understanding” (page 171) of the radiative forcing effect of aerosols. Therefore, Tamino’s statement that “If man-made aerosols were responsible for the cessation of global warming mid-century (which they were)” is based on faith rather than science.

    Tamino also states that the southern hemisphere did not cool in the 1945 to 1975 period. However, if one examines the NOAA monthly land-based hemispheric temperature anomalies, in 63% of months in the 1945 to 1975 period the southern hemisphere temperature land anomaly was lower than the average land temperature anomaly in the 1940 to 1944 period (the peak years of warming in the 1910 to 1945 period). The conclusion that land areas in the southern hemisphere cooled modestly during the 1945 to 1975 period therefore seems reasonable.

    However, it is important to note that there is more evidence of cooling in the northern hemisphere during the 1945 to 1975 period than in the southern hemisphere, since, in about 80% of the months in that period the northern hemisphere land temperature anomaly was cooler than its average during the 1940 to 1944 period. Although this provides some support for the hypothesis, it is also important to note that the average land temperature anomaly in the southern hemisphere since 1940 is about .13 degrees Celsius lower than in the northern hemisphere. No one is claiming that aerosols are responsible for keeping the southern hemisphere land masses relatively cooler than their northern counterparts. A more reasonable explanation for the lower southern hemisphere land temperature anomaly is that relatively more land area in the southern hemisphere faces an ocean than in the northern hemisphere. If this is the case, then the greater observed cooling in the northern hemisphere during the 1945 to 1975 period may simply be due to its relatively greater amount of interior area than to the effect of aerosols.

    [Response: I agree that the SH was cooler from 1945 to 1975, on average, than it was from 1940 to 1945. But that's not the same as 30 years of *cooling*. The entire century, the planet has been cooler than during the paleocene-eocene thermal maximum, but that hardly means we've had 50 million years of continuous cooling. In fact during the period 1945 to 1975, the SH was warming, but not until about the end of this period did it consistently surpass its 1940-1945 level.

    The bulk of evidence suggests that modern aerosol levels have a net cooling effect, although that conclusion is not incontrovertible. But aerosol levels during the post-war industrial period, with unrestrained sulfate emissions, were not the same that they are today; note that sulfate aerosols were so prevalent that eventually the industrialized nations felt the need to limit their emission because of the byproduct known as "acid rain." And the cooling effect of sulfates from massive volcanic eruptions is, quite simply, absolutely incontrovertible. To say that "there is no scientific evidence" of mid-century aerosol cooling is not just false, it's foolish.]

  • Deech56 // August 22, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    RE: caerbannog // Aug 22nd 2007 at 8:10 pm

    “The surface-station and satellite MSU data show very similar temperature trends for the past 3 decades.

    “So I guess that UHI effects somehow have managed to contaminate the satellite data as well as the surface data. Do you have any ideas as to how that might have occurred?”

    Once the Watts crew starts photographing satellites, all will be clear.

  • dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    Our host:

    To say that “there is no scientific evidence” of mid-century aerosol cooling is not just false, it’s foolish.]

    His own post doesn’t even support his conclusion.

    Two of these three studies suggest, based on the reported confidence intervals of the estimations, that there is more than a 10% chance the actual total radiative forcing effect of human-based aerosols is positive.

    Which means two of the three showed a greater than 80% chance that the net effect was negative.

    And the third presumably came down even more heavily in favor of that conclusion.

    there is presently a “medium-low level of scientific understanding” (page 171) of the radiative forcing effect of aerosols.

    “medium-low level of understanding” is not “not understood at all”.

    Neither of these statements support the conclusion that

    Tamino’s statement that “If man-made aerosols were responsible for the cessation of global warming mid-century (which they were)” is based on faith rather than science.

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 1:37 am

    dhogaza: Nor did McIntyre “reserve [sic] engineer temp ‘corrections’ and find a 0.15C change…” McIntyre noticed something strange in the data, pointed out to NASA. NASA then figured out the source of the strangeness and computed the change. McIntyre smelled smokie. NASA put out the fire.

    dhogaza’s characterization is tendentious.

    McIntyre was reverse-engineering the temp corrections when the errors in the data became obvious to him, as did their cause. As the letter from McIntyre to Hansen and Ruedy informing them of the error begins:

    Dear Sirs,
    In your calculation of the GISS “raw” version of USHCN series, it appears to me that, for series after January 2000, you use the USHCN raw version whereas in the immediately prior period you used USHCN time-of-observation or adjusted version. In some cases, this introduces a seemingly unjustified step in January 2000.

  • cce // August 23, 2007 at 1:46 am

    ” I don’t think the people claiming the existence of a nefariously funded “denialist machine” would change their tune if the denialist funding came in the form of $250,000 payments called ‘prizes’ or ‘awards.’”

    In other words, you do believe that everything Hansen did prior to 2001 was in anticpation of a $250,000 award, and you apparently believe that scientists and think-tanks who receive funding from industry sources specifically to attack AGW theory are on equal moral footing.

    Maybe CATO earned its industry funding when Pat Michaels “proved” Hansen’s models were “400% wrong.” Such great science these guys do.

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 2:38 am

    cce,

    I do not believe that Hansen was motivated by “anticpation of a $250,000 award” as I have made clear here more than once. I also do not believe that M&M are motivated by money. I do think there is a lot more money to be made supporting AGW, so the claim that its opponents are all bought off is somewhat more absurd than the claim for the opposite side, but both are probably wrong and should be beside the point.

    People in public relations are of course prostitutes; that is part of their job. Scientists should not be. But when judging scientific arguments, who is and is not a whore should be secondary to arguments about the actual science, which can be made provided their data and methods/algorithms are provided.

    We know that McIntyre’s 0.15 C correction is correct now that the keepers of the data have acknowledged him to be so. We shouldn’t care what are his motivations, especially as he makes all of his work open to scrutiny and to falsification. Would that everyone in this debate did so.

  • Dano // August 23, 2007 at 3:31 am

    DWP:

    Your FUD isn’t good enough for the readers here. IOW: you aren’t fooling anyone.

    Best,

    D

  • John Tofflemire // August 23, 2007 at 4:50 am

    Tamino stated in his rebuttal to my post that “aerosol levels during the post-war industrial period, with unrestrained sulfate emissions, were not the same that they are today”.

    According to the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (in Chapter 2, page 160), a recent study suggests that the total amount of global anthropogenic SO2 emissions fell from 73 TgS-1 in 1980 to 54 TgS-1 in 2000. Another study noted in the IPCC report suggests that SO2 emissions in 25 countries in Europe (presumably most of Western Europe) fell from 18 TgS-1 in 1980 to 4 TgS-1 in 2000 while the IPCC report also notes an EPA study that estimates SO2 emissions in the US fell from 12 TgS-1 in 1980 to 8 TgS-1 in 2000. In addition, the same report references another study stating that SO2 emissions in Asia currently total 17 TgS-1 and it is thought that emissions from Asia have increased significantly in recent years according to the report. Unless SO2 emissions fell at an astonishing rate between 1970 and 1980, one may presume that global SO2 emission levels in 1970 were only modestly higher than in 1980.

    Since the IPCC report implies that current SO2 emission levels may not have a discernable negative radiative forcing impact, it is difficult to imagine what level of SO2 emissions would have produced the cooling observed in the 1945 to 1975 period. Indeed, if all of the SO2 emissions in Asia currently total only 17 TgS-1 even given the astonishing levels of air pollution in every major Chinese city (and there are lots of them), it is difficult if not impossible to imagine that SO2 emission levels in 1945 were significantly higher than the 73 TgS-1 figure reported in 1980.

    The IPCC report also notes that southern hemisphere SO2 emissions made up only 11 TgS-1 of the 2000 global total, up from only 9 TgS-1 in 1980. That means that northern hemisphere SO2 emissions in 1980 were 64 TgS-1 or 55 TgS-1 greater than SO2 emissions in the southern hemisphere. If since, as Tamino states “the climate effect of man-made aerosols tends to be concentrated in the region of emission” and since global temperatures were rising in 1980, the 55 TgS-1 difference in SO2 emission levels between the northern and southern hemispheres must not have been sufficient to produce a cooling trend in the northern hemisphere.

    In other words, what level of SO2 emissions in the northern hemisphere is Tamino claiming that, apparently, erupted suddenly in 1945 overwhelming the warming effect of increasing CO2 levels and resulting in a period of modest global cooling from 1945 to 1975? And, what evidence is there that such a level of SO2 emissions was in fact present at that time? Until such evidence is made clear, the statement that there is no scientific evidence of mid-century aerosol cooling is neither false nor foolish.

    [Response: The acid-rain-producing concentrations of industrial sulfate aerosols pre-1980 is *scientific evidence* that their concentration was higher than current concentration. The much lower concentrations of greenhouse gases pre-1980 is *scientific proof* that the climate forcing of greenhouse gases was less than today, so aerosol concentrations didn't have to be high enough to negate *today's* greenhouse levels, just past levels. The aerosol-induced cooling of massive volcanic eruptions is *scientific proof* that they have a global cooling effect.

    I never said there was ironclad proof. But I say again, your claim that there is *no scientific evidence* is not merely false, it's foolish.]

  • cce // August 23, 2007 at 6:40 am

    You claim that Hansen winning a $250,000 award is the same as scientists and think tanks taking money specifically to discredit AGW theory. “One side takes money, the other side takes money, so let’s call it a draw.” No. It is not a draw.

    Hansen won the $250,000 decades after he first began working on climate change, and 13 years after he said he was “99% certain” that global warming was here. About the same time Pat Michaels was testifying before Congress, he was making the bet that 10 years later temperatures would substantially cooler. Gee, why didn’t anyone give him $250,000?

    If Exxon waited 13 years to pay off CATO or CEI, based on the strength and accuracy of their science, then I supposed they would be on equal footing. But they’re not.

  • John Mashey // August 23, 2007 at 7:28 am

    3 “HEMISPHERES”, ENSOs, VOLCANOES
    In the spirit of exploratory data analysis, consider another way to analyze the data, which wouldn’t “prove” anything, but might also give insights:
    a) Take the 3-banded GISTEMP data from 1930-2006 from:
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/
    “Annual Mean Temperature Change for Three Latitude Bands” (essentially
    N: 30% of Earth Surface ~ N. of Tropic of Cancer
    S: 30% ~ S. of Tropic of Capricorn
    C: 40% in between
    [not exactly, but close].

    There is, after all, nothing magic about 2 hemispheres, and I can think of reasons why 3 bands might be more explanatory.

    b) Add to each plot a scaled, inverted version of the SOI index from http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/enso/ensodef.html [handiest one that goes back beyond 1950], to get some indication of ENSO behavior, inverted to make jiggles in same direction. (I used -.5-.2*SOI to make reasonable graphs).

    c) Add in markers of volcanoes, from:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Explosivity_Index

    A large volcanic eruption in low-latitudes can generate effects in North and South bands, due to Hadley Cell circulation patterns, whereas one would expect effects of North or South volcanoes to mostly stay there. Of course, big volcanoes have more global effects than small ones, but it takes a while for the effects to spread.

    Volcanoes, where 2nd number is from VEI scale:
    4: cataclysmic
    5: paroxysmal
    6: colossal
    7: super-colossal (fortunately none of these recently),
    8: mega-colossal ” ”

    N
    1947 4 Hekla (Iceland)
    1980 5 St Helens
    1992 4 Spurr
    S
    1990 4 Hudson (Chile)
    C
    1943-1952 4 Paricutin, Mexico
    1963 5 Agung, Bali
    1982 5 El Chichon, Mexico
    1983 4 Galunggung, Java
    1991 6 Pinataubo, Phillipines [the biggie]

    4) EYEBALLING the 3 Excel charts [no regressions, and not being too worried about modest year-off effects, since it matters when a volcano happens in a year.]:

    ENSOs: naturally, the C Temperature graph looks more like the ENSO graph than do the N or S graphs.

    The S graph is less spikey then the other two, and doesn’t seem to pay much attention to ENSOs, but big dips seem to correlate with S and C volcanoes.

    Assuming the SOI from the source given above is OK, then there were big El Ninos in both 1941 and 1942, followed by several years of modest La Ninas.
    This is right about where the peak in the global smoothed temperature hits … but the bump in C temperature doesn’t appear in N or S. Also, Paricutin fired up in 1943 and goes, on-and-off into 1952, and maybe that helped keep C temperatures down for a while (?).

    Of course, the climate system has many other moving parts (natural and anthropogenic), but ENSOs and volcanoes are rare in being clearly able to have spikey short-duration effects … which is why one cannot get too carried away with short-term jiggles, and the 3-banded graphs look somewhat different than the 2-banded ones.

    [Response: Excellent! Thanks for the ideas, and thanks for the pointer to el Nino data pre-1950 (which I hadn't previously found).]

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Dano,

    A perfect example of sticking to the point and arguing about science rather than how your opponents are disingenuous and stupid. If only everyone in this debate had as much class as you, we could really get somewhere.

    [Response: I think I'll agree that Dano's last comment was just negativity, and lacked substantive scientific content -- but I'll strongly *disagree* that he has no class. He's made many comments here, and is a valuable contributor.

    There's a fine line between passionate rebuttal and just "fuming," and lately some of us have been flirting with that line. Lord knows I'm far from perfect in this regard -- but again I'll say that the more we discuss the actual science, the more progress we'll make toward understanding.]

  • george // August 23, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    DWPitelli said: “Unlike this so-called “y2K error” their critique of the hockey stick is sufficiently complicated that no one has had to concede anything publicly, and it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will.”

    I suggest you read what the NRC panel said about the Mann results. You might be surprised.

    From Surface Temperature Reconstructions
    for the Last 2,000 Years
    (NRC, June 2006)

    “The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998,
    1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the
    Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during
    at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has
    subsequently been supported by an array of evidence
    that includes both additional large-scale surface
    temperature reconstructions and pronounced
    changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such
    as melting on icecaps and the retreat of glaciers
    around the world, which in many cases appear to be
    unprecedented during at least the last 2,000 years.
    [emphasis added by me]
    Not all individual proxy records indicate that the
    recent warmth is unprecedented, although a larger
    fraction of geographically diverse sites experienced
    exceptional warmth during the late 20th century
    than during any other extended period from A.D.
    900 onward.
    Based on the analyses presented in the original
    papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting
    evidence, the committee fi nds it plausible that the
    Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last
    few decades of the 20th century than during any
    comparable period over the preceding millennium.
    The substantial uncertainties currently present in
    the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface
    temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower
    our confi dence in this conclusion compared to the
    high level of confi dence we place in the Little Ice
    Age cooling and 20th century warming. Even less
    confi dence can be placed in the original conclusions
    by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the
    warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at
    least a millennium” because the uncertainties inherent
    in temperature reconstructions for individual
    years and decades are larger than those for longer
    time periods, and because not all of the available
    proxies record temperature information on such
    short timescales.
    Surface temperature reconstructions for periods
    prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple
    lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that
    climatic warming is occurring in response to human
    activities, and they are not the primary evidence.”

    The “hockey stick” shape does not just depend on data from Mann et al, as you can clearly see on the IPCC graphic shown here, which is an overlay of data from many different studies (not just the Mann ones).

    So, even if the Mann results were excluded entirely, the hockey stick would remain. It might not be Mann’s hockey stick, but most hockey sticks look pretty much the same, with only minor differences (some are straight, some curved, etc)

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    george,
    And we might instead note a considerable climbdown if we instead note:

    1) The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 100o than found in Mann & Jones 2003.

    2) That the word “plausible” does not imply even more probable than not, let alone anything like 95% certainty.

    3) That we might have instead bolded:
    Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium” because the uncertainties inherent in temperature reconstructions for individual
    years and decades are larger than those for longer time periods, and because not all of the available proxies record temperature information on such short timescales.

    I don’t expect to convince you of this, but I do predict the climbdown on the elimination of the Medieval Warm Period will continue and be obvious to all within 5 years.

    Note that I agree that the existence of a Medieval Warm Period does not disprove man-caused CO2-induced global warming. Indeed, it seems likely to me that the globe has warmed about 1.0F over the least century, and that by a first-order calculation this is about what we’d expect from the well-documented increases in CO2 and methane levels.

  • Dano // August 23, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    Response: I think I’ll agree that Dano’s last comment was just negativity, and lacked substantive scientific content — but I’ll strongly *disagree* that he has no class. He’s made many comments here, and is a valuable contributor.

    There’s a fine line between passionate rebuttal and just “fuming,” and lately some of us have been flirting with that line. Lord knows I’m far from perfect in this regard — but again I’ll say that the more we discuss the actual science, the more progress we’ll make toward understanding.]

    The overarching point here is that the atomistic quibbling over mis/malinterpreted findings is, IME, a purposeful delaying tactic. Whether or not my funnin’ about automated FUDbots is based in reality, the underlying point about FUD purveying is valid. IMHO there is no honest attempt to “discuss” the “science” here by DWP.

    I’ve seen this tactic a million times.

    Best,

    D

  • Eli Rabett // August 23, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Not all volcanic eruptions are equivalent wrt climate. Mt St. Helen’s blew out sideways and there was very little material pushed up to the bottom of the stratosphere for example.

  • george // August 23, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    DWPitelli: said” That we might have instead bolded:
    Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year,”

    The problem with your thesis (that scientists will/should be “climbing down from the hockey stick claim”) is that the “hockey stick” shape does not depend on temperatures of individual years or of an individual decade (which the sentence you highlighted refers to).

    It represents trends over multiple decades/centuries ( the handle and blades of the stick, respectively).

    Brief years of warming or cooling mean very little over the long run. The trend over decades and centuries is all that really matters when one is trying to track climate change..

    The text that you selected does nothing to negate the reality of those basic trends (which the NRC report affirmed).

    I didn’t/don’t expect to change your opinion either. I just wanted to point out that the NRC report does not support your claim about the hockey stick.

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 9:04 pm

    Dano,
    My first post discussed why I thought the initial post’s third graph was misleading. I believe it was substantive, on-topic and correct; although I don’t believe anyone cared to post agreement or disagreement with me.

    My following posts were essentially all about my objection to the pseudo-arguments about the motives of the AGW skeptics, and why I thought them pointless and unpersuasive, especially within this type of forum. Your paranoic attribution to me of motives such as a “purposeful delaying tactic” would of course fall under this category.

    By the way, FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. While each side in any argument can believe that the other is attempting to promote uncertainty and doubt in the face of the first side’s obvious truth, it is a form of begging the question, and it is particularly absurd for those warning of catastrophic warning to accuse the other side of abusing “fear.” To the contrary, it would be more accurate for you to accuse the other side of promoting complacence in the face of real danger, which ought to be feared.

    But as it happens, I do not advocate complacency, but rather a sufficient carbon tax as to eliminate the use of coal in this country over the next decade, as well as drastic reductions in the use of oil and gas for the production of electricity. (Naturally we will have to build a lot of windmills and nuclear power plants to do this; I am on record as supporting windmills even on the pristine mountain onto which my house looks.)

  • DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    george,
    yes, but…
    1) The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 1000 than found in Mann & Jones 2003.
    …does

  • John Mashey // August 23, 2007 at 10:48 pm

    Eli: if the note about Mt. St Helens was for me, I agree 100%: it matters where volcanoes are, it matters how big they are, and it indeed matters whether they blow up (widespread effects, eventually) or go sideways (big, short effects locally).

    It’s simply that we’re looking at time series where we *know* volcanoes and ENSOs can cause big gyrations, even if we don’t have very good measurements in the early periods. Like I’ve said, it’s hard to know what your daily weight change is when you keep pet elephants in your room, but you should get excited about daily jiggles.

    My preference would be to use charts that include major volcanoes, and then delete or gray out those whose structural nature minimizes their effects. But a least looking caused me to learn one thing I didn’t know: I’d never heard of Mount Hunter in Chile, but via that volcano URL, it seemed to have contributed to the dip whose main cause was Pinataubo, but the latter was such a big deal that Hunter was ignored.

  • Brightside // August 23, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    Tamino, thank you for your very important blog. I am impressed by your presentation and analysis of the data. I will continue to read with interest and hold onto the hope that one day our governments will develop a meaningful political response to climate change. Thank you again. People like yourself do make a difference.

  • george // August 24, 2007 at 2:26 am

    DWPitelli claims that “The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 1000 than found in Mann & Jones 2003.
    …does” [support his claim that scientists will be “climbing down from the hockey stick claim”]

    So, let me get this straight. You are basing your assessment on the result of a single study (Moberg) at a single point in time (1000) out of that 1000 year stretch?

    Let’s take a close look at that graph in the NRC report, shall we? It shows a difference between the peak in about 1000 for Mann and Jones and the peak for Moberg of about 0.2C.

    The Moberg peak is still 0.4C below today’s temperature and for the rest of the period between 1000 and th present it was below todays temp by an even greater amount.

    If 0.2C (the difference between mann and moberg in 1000) is “considerable” (as you say), then it stands to reason that (by your own assessment) the 0.4C difference between Moberg in 1000 and the current temperature must be “very considerable”.

  • DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 4:35 am

    Indeed. 0.4C is considerable — although comparing 1000AD to 2000AD temperatures is fraught with more difficulty than is judging updated estimates for 1000AD temperatures.

    My prediction, admittedly unfalsifiable at present, is that the Medieval Climate Optimum, which was disappeared by Mann in 2003, and brought back to 0.2C by Moberg in 2005, will be at least double that in a few years.

    I do not expect people like Mann or Hansen to concede anything to McIntyre — indeed, given’s Hansen’s counterproductive lack of class since the 0.15C US error was found, I expect if he addresses it at all he will claim McIntyre got lucky like a clock right twice a day — but in this sense (of a quiet return of the MCO) McIntyre’s critique will be validated, as will be some considerable portion of his more recent attacks on the correction factors (and lack thereof) used by Hansen et al on the thermometer readings of the past century. I do not, however, expect the majority of the reported 0.6C warming to be found wanting. And I do not think the changes will prove dispositive to the real-world debate, which is what ought to be done.

  • cce // August 24, 2007 at 7:58 am

    The statement from Mann et al singling out 1998 and the 1990s was rightly criticized by the NRC, as that was too specific a claim to make. It has no bearing on the significance of the “Hockey Stick” (The 1990s aren’t even part of the Hockey Stick). As the quote made clear, the balance of evidence says that that the last few decades have been warmer than at any comparable time covered by these multi-proxy studies. The Moberg reconstruction says the same thing.

    In addition to mis-stating the NRC’s conclusions, another common claim of the “skeptics” to say that AR4 quietly “abandoned” the Hockey Stick, which is total nonsense. The SPM expands the period of time from 1000 years (from the TAR) to 1300 years, with a 66%+ (”likely”) probability. The body of AR4 WGI includes the Hockey Stick, and many other multi-proxies, none of which put past temperatures as high as they are today. Furthermore, AR4 specifically rebukes the M&M criticism.

    The notion that the scientific establishment is backing away from the Hockey Stick, or Multi-proxy reconstructions in general, lives on only in the minds of the skeptics.

  • cce // August 24, 2007 at 9:08 am

    The authority on sulfur emissions is David Stern who is cited in AR4. His web page is here:
    http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/

    His data is here:
    http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/datasite.html

    His sulfur page is here:
    http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/Sulfur.html

    Sulfur Emissions increased very rapidly from the ’30s to about 1970. From 1970 until the late ’80s, emissions were flat. If SO2 has a cooling effect, it should show up in highly industrial regions since the effect is localized. I believe this is the case, as there is strong negative corellation for the US.

    Stern breaks his data down by country so it would be possible to compare temperature increase (or lack thereof) and sulfur emissions based on country/region to determine if highly industrialized regions saw different temperature patterns than non-industrialized regions (hint).

  • DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    cce,
    “Hockey Stick” is a somewhat vague term. Your latest claims, if directed to me, don’t seem to amount to even an attempt at refutation of my quite specific claims.

    So we agree! :-)

    If Mann has been “rightly criticized” for comments on the recent data, and if the Medieval Climate Optimum has come back by 0.2C since Mann, then my point is again made: the climbdown from Mann (or “Hockey Stick” if you will) has been occurring on both ends. Only time will tell by how much.

    It is of course good that science is not dependent on the eternal wisdom of experts, as if Mann or Hansen were to the modern period as Aristotle were to the Medieval. (I do not see myself as opposed to climate science, like a Rush Limbaugh, or an Al Gore, or perhaps even Hansen for the last month, preferring moral and essentially religious arguments to scientific observation and reasoning.)

  • george //