Throughout the 20th century, global average temperature shows an interesting evolution. From about 1915 to about 1944, temperature rose. Then from about 1944 to 1951, global temperature declined. It remained roughly constant from about 1951 to about 1975, and since then it has risen sharply.
People often wonder why the planet didn’t warm from 1944 to 1975. Denialists often say that the planet actually cooled for 30 years or more, but this is simply not so; the cooling was confined to a brief period (about 1944 to 1951), followed by relative stability for several decades. But the question remains, with man-made CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere, why did the planet not warm for several decades mid-century?
The answer is that during that time, the warming from man-made greenhouse gases was offset by the cooling from man-made aerosols. Aerosols are tiny particles which remain suspended in the atmosphere for several days to weeks if they’re in the troposphere (the lower part of earth’s atmosphere), or several years if they’re in the stratosphere (the upper part of earth’s atmosphere). They tend to block incoming sunlight from reaching earth, thereby cooling earth’s climate.
Much of man-made aerosols are sulfates emitted by industrial activity; the boom in industrial production late in world war II, and during the post-war era, caused them to become a potent climate-forcing agent. Man-made aerosols are generally confined to the troposphere, so they settle out in a matter of days to weeks, but if they’re being continually replenished their climate forcing effect can be persistent. In addition to acting as a climate forcing agent, sulfate aerosols are also responsible for acid rain; that’s why in the 1960s-1970s environmental regulations were enacted to limit their emission, and man-made aerosols declined. Since tropospheric aerosols settle out of the atmosphere before they can disperse worldwide, their environmental impact is concentrated in the geographic region in which they’re produced.
Aerosols can also be injected into the atmosphere by volcanic explosions; for massive explosions the aerosols can be blasted into the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, where they can disperse worldwide, and it takes years for them to settle out of the air. Hence large volcanic explosions have a distinct cooling effect on the climate; the most recent such event was the explosion of the Mt. Pinatubo volcano, which caused global temperature to take a nose-dive for a couple of years afterward.
CO2 stays in the atmosphere a long time; it’s “residence time” is better measured in centuries than years. Hence it tends to mix throughout the planetary atmosphere (with a “mixing time” of about 7 or 8 months), and its warming impact is truly global. Also, because they’re so persistent, even after emissions stop it takes a long time for the atmosphere to return to its undisturbed state; the warming effect of CO2 is both global and persistent.
If man-made aerosols were responsible for the cessation of global warming mid-century (which they were), and the climate effect of man-made aerosols tends to be concentrated in the region of emission (which it does), and the vast majority of industrial activity is in the northern hemisphere (which it is), then the mid-century cooling impact of aerosols should be concentrated in the northern hemisphere. Because of this, the question arose recently on the RealClimate blog concerning the different warming/cooling between the northern and southern hemispheres throughout the 20th century. Let’s take a look at what the data tell us about the differences in 20th-century temperature evolution between the northern and southern hemispheres.
NASA GISS, in addition to estimating global average temperature, also estimates average temperature separately for the two hemispheres. In an earlier post I showed the difference between the hemispheres, based on data for land-only stations in the two hemispheres. Here’s the temperature evolution of the two hemispheres using both land and ocean data (northern hemisphere in red, southern in blue):
The “smooth” versions show that while the northern hemisphere did indeed cool for several decades mid-century, the southern hemisphere did not — exactly what we would expect from sulfate-aerosol forcing. In fact, the smoothed version tends to smooth the very brief southern-hemisphere cooling a little too much; the annual numbers show that the southern hemisphere mid-century cooling is pretty much confined to a single year, from 1945 to 1946. If we smooth the southern-hemisphere temperature data in two separate pieces, up to 1945, and from 1946 onward, we get this:
It’s evident that the northern hemisphere shows decades of cooling mid-century, the effect of man-made aerosols. But the southern hemisphere shows only a single year of notable cooling; besides the 1945-1946 cooling event, the southern hemisphere shows consistent warming throughout the century.




149 responses so far ↓
ks // August 17, 2007 at 8:02 pm |
I have very little exposure to SH trends. Do you know what happened (or where an answer can be found) circa 1946 in the SH that caused such a disconnect in the trend?
[Response: No, I don't know. If I had to guess, it would be that the peak of warming in 1944 involved a strong el Nino, and the subsiding of that el Nino caused both hemispheres to cool. But that's just a guess.]
N. Johnson // August 17, 2007 at 11:03 pm |
If it were caused by ENSO, you would expect to see evidence of a similar disconnect during other ENSO events.
Petro // August 18, 2007 at 3:52 am |
The sudden drop in the SH temperature anomalies begs for explanation. Could this drop be an indication of some unknown feedback kicking in? I think revealing the reason for your discovery would be scientifically most interesting.
Great work!
Mike // August 18, 2007 at 4:42 am |
It’s only a guess but there seems to have been an active volcano in New Zealand in 1945…
http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/NaturalHazardsAndDisasters/HistoricVolcanicActivity/4/en
SomeBeans // August 18, 2007 at 6:26 am |
The discontinuity in the Southern Hemisphere does look a bit odd. Although this site:
http://coaps.fsu.edu/lib/elninolinks/
shows cold phase El Nino for 5 consecutive years 1945-49 which was an exceptional run. ‘54-56 are also cold phase.
I’m thinking there may be an interesting plot to do whereby a ‘modified’ Southern Hemisphere temperature is plotted by adding an offset related to the phase and size of the El Nino for a year.
Anonymous (kind of) // August 18, 2007 at 8:17 am |
While the aerosol hypothesis about the difference between hemispheres sounds plausible, and could (maybe) be further tested by analyzing smaller regions, the piece-wise smoothing model seems a bit artificial.
Does the piece-wise model explain your data better than the continuous one, given increased degrees of freedom? (AIC, DIC, etc.) Even if it did, it could be a coincidence as we have no idea why.
[Response: The piecewise-smoothing model does indeed fit the data significantly better than the continuous one, and I reduced the degrees of freedom in each "piece" so that the total d.f. were the same for both models. However, we expect physical variables to be continuous; the piecewise model is just a mathematical convenience. It seems to me to be just a convenient way to characterize what is a continuous phenomenon that happens to have a brief, rapid drop, the discontinuity which it includes should not be taken too seriously. Most smoothing methods don't simulate brief rapid changes in an otherwise slowly-evolving signal very well; a low-pass filter, e.g., actually prohibits it!
As for why there is such a brief, rapid drop -- that seems to me to be a very interesting question!]
Steve Bloom // August 18, 2007 at 8:45 am |
This new paper is interesting. If it holds up, it would modify the mid-20th century cooling discussion somewhat, although there are larger implications. Don’t pay attention to where it’s housed; the fact that Lubos used it as a basis for one of his frantic irrational tears doesn’t necessarily reflect on the paper. Tsonis himself is legit AFAIK.
Steve Bloom // August 18, 2007 at 8:57 am |
Forgot to mention that there’s also a new paper in Science Express (Flanner et al) last week showing that the excess Arctic warmth of the early 20th century was a result of soot emission from the U.S. and Canada. The effect would have been regional but still enough to bump up the NH trend noticably and make the mid-century relative cooling appear more substantial than it really was.
Heiko Gerhauser // August 18, 2007 at 9:31 am |
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/06/observations-show-climate-sensitivity.html
A long, long discussion of the subject in Coby Beck’s comments section.
I think it’s quite difficult to interpret the data, there’s too much uncertainty in both the measured temperatures and the estimated forcings.
Coby was so kind to provide this link to a graph of the estimated forcings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Climate_Change_Attribution.png
One thing that jumps out is the rather large impact of volcanoes in the period.
It’s also interesting that the great depression resulted in a big drop in aerosol emissions, which co-incided with the 1930’s peak in US temperatures.
And now let me get to my main point. Aerosols aren’t just a neat little item to get temperature history to agree with models, and otherwise of no public policy importance and to be forgotten about. Their present forcing is nearly as large as that of CO2. AR4 gives forcings of 1.66 W/m2 and 1.2 W/m2 as the central estimates for CO2 and aerosols respectively (with huge uncertainty for aerosols, the top end of the uncertainty range is 2.7 W/2).
http://groups.google.com/group/globalchange/browse_thread/thread/cbe22ce1dae48e27
http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf
Or in other words, a reduction to zero for aerosol emissions will have nearly the same effect on temperatures as going back to pre-industrial CO2 levels.
That’s huge and means that efforts to reduce aerosol emissions in China will have an enormous impact on temperatures. On the other hand, the enormous expansion of coal power in China over the last half decade may have the effect of masking GHG’s again, if it co-incides with large sulfate emissions. Also, there’s a huge range for current anthropogenic emissions, and large uncertainty about past trends:
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Pub_Ch02.pdf
KenH // August 18, 2007 at 4:52 pm |
Re: Steve Bloom
I don’t know much about Tsonis, but the National Post recently had an article about him under Lawrence Solomon’s denialist series –
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=288ba340-98f9-4fbe-8412-acf920b32604
If Tsonis is not a denialist, it wouldn’t be the first time a non-denialist has been portrayed as a denialist in this series.
John Mashey // August 18, 2007 at 5:05 pm |
Great analysis & thread.
Like I’ve suggested before in another thread here, it is well worth using GISS’ little volcano & ENSO icons, as in http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/, Figure 2.
Personally, I’d be happy *never* to see another temperature trend chart that failed to include such, at the minimum. [Of course, I understand it is unlikely that standard graphing software has little volcano icons :-)]
At the very least, that might lessen the amount of wasted discussion where people see dips or jumps and draw strong conclusions from them, pick them as endpoints in series, or assume that nobody understands why they were happening, and therefore there is no long-term trend.
We have a climate system in which discrete, short-term events can easily generate year-to-year swings of .2-.3C on top of other natural variability. Even though we can’t predict those events very far in advance, and even though we don’t have modern measurements for their effects very far in the past, and even though ENSOs differ in intensity, and for older ones, not everyone agrees about the intensity, it is well worth identifying these events for context.
george // August 18, 2007 at 5:28 pm |
There was actually a plateau in greenhouse gas forcing from about 1940-1950, as shown here.
That would not account for the cooling in the northern hemisphere, of course, but if the forcing had continued to increase over that period the northern hemisphere cooling would almost certainly have been less pronounced (perhaps even non-existent).
Anon456 // August 18, 2007 at 7:03 pm |
Nuclear Winter it Was
That’s it. I am convinced now, that the atomic bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 perfectly explain the behavior seen in the split (.,1945] and [1946,.) plots for the Southern hemisphere, i.e. this plot.
Nagasaki mushroom was 18 km high, piercing through the tropopause over Japan and injecting massive amounts of aerosols into the stratosphere in addition to the tropospheric additions, as I see it. i.e. we have experienced a small sized "nuclear winter" from the atomic bomb droppings.
Has anyone studied the impact of the nuclear bombs on the temperature record closely. Have the amounts of aerosols introduced been quantified thoroughly? Or is this, I feel compelled to ask because this is so obviously notable, something that NASA doesn't want to be looked at, for political reasons?
(reposting in case the earlier one didn't show up. Please approve the earlier version if that came through. Thanks.)
[Response: I considered this idea some time ago, and I think it's been pondered by others as well. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't the only nuclear explosions, there were plenty of above-ground tests through the 50s and 60s, and if I recall correctly, the ups and downs of global temperature don't correspond very well with the timing of those tests (whether or not one includes the "size" as indicated by megatonnage). I'm also curious about the impact of firestorms from the massive *conventional* bombing campaigns late in the war. I haven't yet seen convincing evidence of the notable impact of wartime activity on global temperature; not to say there isn't one, just that I'm not yet convinced.]
John Mashey // August 19, 2007 at 5:55 am |
1) This reasoning sounds like it came from ponderthemaunder, only less detailed. Do you find that a reliable source?
The idea has bounced around for a while; it’s been on John Daly’s website, etc, many people strongly wish for human-generated sulfates not to have any effect, so it’s been looked at many a time.
2) The two bombs dropped on Japan were 13 and 21 kilotons, smaller or far smaller than most of those done later (especially H-bombs), and in any case, most (not all) aboveground tests ended ~1963.
Anon456 // August 19, 2007 at 6:33 am |
Hello tamino:
But Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren’t the only nuclear explosions, there were plenty of above-ground tests through the 50s and 60s
The key, is seems to me is whether those tests were in the deep interiors (so that there is plenty of debris that can rise) instead of land close to the ocean (such as archipelagos and atolls) and whether the explosion mushroom reaches and penetrates the stratosphere.
Apparently, all nuclear tests since the partial TBT in 1963 have been underground.
I see, from a preliminary look, some similarities between Mt. Pinatubo’s eruption and Nagasaki bombing. A quantitative comparison (in terms of amounts and types of aerosols injected into tropo/strato spheres) would be very helpful for this.
Thanks.
EG // August 19, 2007 at 3:13 pm |
I like the depth of the postings here, but I find the use of words such as ‘denialists’ and ‘deniers’ a little polemical. It chimes with ‘Holocaust deniers’, doesn’t it? Why not settle on a word that could be used to describe people of good faith who, even if misguided, have a different point of view? ‘Sceptics’, with its flaws, is better.
[Response: I'm glad you enjoy the science, that's why I blog.
I've never seen or heard any advocate of addressing the global warming problem refer to, or even hint at, linking "denialist" or "denier" with the holocaust. I've only seen that from denialists, who seem to want to discredit advocates by suggesting that they liken global-warming denialists to holocaust deniers.
And let's be perfectly, absolutely, unambiguously clear about this: I do *not* use "denialist" or "denier" to denote people of good faith. For those, I would indeed describe them as "skeptics." I use "denialist" specifically to mean those who are *not* of good faith; they're in denial.]
John Mashey // August 19, 2007 at 3:45 pm |
Anon456:
You have a hypothesis.
Tamino has already said he doesn’t know.
Why don’t *you* Google away and find data that might support your hypothesis? and post citations?
NU // August 19, 2007 at 3:50 pm |
Anon456: you may want to look at this reference concerning the climatic effects of nuclear bombs; also, this paper.
But please, can you spare us the political conspiracy theories?
DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 3:13 am |
Your data does not show a “brief, rapid drop” — it shows a drop that while rapid was also persisting. That is, the drop did not reverse itself in the following year or two. Your graphic discontinuity did not merely smooth out or eliminate an anomalous year, it effectively achieved almost the same effect (smoothed line) as would happen if you moved all the subsequent data downward by that amount. You could do almost as much with the Northern Hemisphere and some nearby years, to equally bogus effect.
John Mashey // August 20, 2007 at 4:12 am |
EG:
Perhaps you are new to this.
My standard comment is that this is one of those 3-sided arguments, with the sides best described as:
- “Alarmists”, i.e., who of various ideological reasons thought we should simplify life and that GW would be The End, were far ahead of the science in thinking so, and have sometimes been prone to enough exaggeration to drive people into the other extreme, which is:
- “Denialist”, typically for economic reasons (there must be no conservation of fossil fuels) or ideological reasons (don’t want government interference) do not want science to work, especially when it gives inconvenient answers. They wish to be called skeptics (an honorable term), and tend to label anyone who disagrees as alarmists, hence:
Google: james hansen alarmist
gets 58K hits.
- Real skeptics, i.e., scientists and other who look at hard at evidence, i.e., skeptic in the classic sense, not in the sense of “I don’t believe it and I won’t no matter what the evidence.”
The first group tends to political left, the second to political right, and the 3rd group apolitical or all over the place, or in some cases, driven from right or center leftward by recent government policies.
A real skeptic enumerates their reasons for doubt, and then:
- as they learn more
- as data piles up
- as inconsistencies disappear
- as conflicting theories get disproved
they are willing to change their ideas, whereas denialists change their reasons for believing the same thing. For example, I purposefully started skpetical of AGW (to give the NO side a good chance), spent an hour a day for years following things, and evidence kept mounting. For example, at one point, my list included “It is puzzling that satellites say cooling and ground stations say warming. Either one of them was wrong, or there’s a new physical principle.” Then, errors were found in the satellite calculations. All this is a normal part of science.
HOWEVER
There is an active, well-connected denialism machine, of funders, think-tanks, PR agencies, lobbyists, and a few scientists (albeit ones who rarely if ever actually publish peer-reviewed climate research), who churn out disinformation. The machine really fired up with the efforts by tobacco companies to avoid smoking-disease links, and the tactics, and quite often, the same people carried over into acid rain, environmental regulations, CFC-ozone, and AGW.
If you are person of good will, who doubts humans are causing the current warming (say 1975), try posting the N reasons, which if removed, would make you think AGW rather likely. (The same reasons pop up all the time, and any knowledgable person could quickly point you at relevant postings, websites, and posters.)
If you don’t believe denialists exist, I’ll happily post you a roadmap so you can go learn who they are and how they work, but post your objections-list first. Some of the same people worked very hard, paid by Philip Morris or RJ Reynolds to fend off regulation of cigarettes by obfuscating the science. For that side, I recommend Allan Brandt’s “The Cigarette Century”, which is especially useful because in that case, there is public access to a lot of internal documents.
Julian Flood // August 20, 2007 at 10:57 am |
You are struggling, in my opinion, with the end of the Kreigesmarine effect: as the oil covering the NH oceans slowly dispersed, and the leaching from the bunker oil tailed off, the warm pulse instigated a feedback of DMS which boosted the albedo by producing more stratocumulus cloud. Only when industry began to fire up again ( and I think I can just make out the Suez canal closure in the record, but that may well be wishful thinking) does the oil spill level climb and damp down the biology and the mechanical CCN production. Try your graphs using non Folland-Parker adjusted SSTs and see what the results look like. Doing it for for both hemispheres would be good.
I was interested to see that the quoted wiki article model fails to account for a temperature spike in the 39-45 period (take off the adjustments and smoothing to see it more clearly).
The albedo is falling. Google on Palle/ (that’s an acute e) to see a presentation where he states that the increased forcing (6-7 W/m^2 in 15 years!) from albedo change dwarfs the CO2 input (and, in this context, the sulphate – unless the aerosols are the cause of the albedo change of course.)
Albedo change is what’s going on — but I would say that, as my oil sheen hypothesis of global warming needs that to be so. However, at least I can explain the WWII hump.
JF
DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 11:59 am |
Oops, that should be
“all the subsequent data UPward by that amount.”
DWPittelli // August 20, 2007 at 3:03 pm |
John Mashey:
You of course are resorting to ad hominems yourself, rather than sticking to the science. That said, I’ll acknowledge that most people do not have the knowledge or intelligence to stick to first principles, and so have to rate the credibility of various experts and rely on them to at least an extent.
Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife, but I think pointing that out is fair rejoinder after all the claims of a denialist machine funding disingenuous skeptics.
Would you name some names, rather than just claim that “Some of the same people” who lied for big tobacco are now GW deniers? Scientists would be a lot more meaningful on this score than PR companies, but I’ll take whatever you’ve got.
Dano // August 20, 2007 at 6:41 pm |
Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife, but I think pointing that out is fair rejoinder after all the claims of a denialist machine funding disingenuous skeptics.
Evidence plz.
Best to show a non-NewsMax card if you have one.
Best,
D
John Mashey // August 20, 2007 at 11:01 pm |
DWPitelli:
1) This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers was used, and I explained. I also didn’t use the phrase “lied for big tobacco” … although I wouldn’t disagree.
Naomi Oreskes (well-known science historian) gave a fine talk on this:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/march21/oreskes-032107.html
Plenty of other people know all this.
Tobacco & AGW: easy, let me pick a few for starts. I’m in the middle of running a conference, so I’ve just got a few minutes, and none of the books I’ve got at home, so off the top of my head. *’d are scientists.
People:
Frederick Seitz *
S. Fred Singer*
Steven Milloy
Entities ( a small sample)
George C. Marshall Institute
SEPP
Competitive Enterprise Institute
CATO Institute
Fraser Institute (Canada)
http://www.sourcewatch.org and wikipedia are useful to look these up in, and in particular, they track funding, somewhat.
http://www.desmogblog.com/node/1272 is sometimes useful.
Also, Google:
Frederick Seitz X
Fred Singer X
(where X = either RJ Reynolds or Exxonmobil)
steven milloy Y
(where Y = philip morris or exxonmobil)
fraser institute Z
(where Z = philip morris, exxon, or
charles koch foundation)
Even more than specific people, the tactics honed in the cigarette wars were carried over. There is a big network of the entities, with interlocking directorates & writers ,some of which are astroturf fronts.
Anyway, nothing ad hominem at all, merely a straightforward answer to a question about the players.
DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 12:56 am |
Dano,
Please tell me you are not really asking me for evidence that Hansen received $250,000 from John Kerry’s wife. The “Heinz award” is indeed such, Hansen has written about it, it is no secret that Hansen has received it and it amounts to exactly that sum, and it is well documented at the Heinz awards site, elsewhere on the web, and in newspapers.
“Best to show a non-NewsMax card” indeed.
I agree it would be baseless to charge that Hansen is an AGW alarmist because of this payment. But it would also be foolish to claim he would have gotten that cash award even if he were more skeptical or agnostic on AGW.
Dano // August 21, 2007 at 1:17 am |
This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers
We should clarify that ad hom is used/malused as a shorthand pejorative.
Ad hom: your argument is cr*p because you are an idiot.
NOT ad hom: your argument is cr*p because of x, y, z. And, BTW, you are an idiot.
But anyway, we anxiously await two things now:
1. Pitelli’s scathing denunciation of people who use ‘alarmist’ or ‘concencus science’ [misspelled purposely].
2. Evidence that Hansen took that money from Kerry.
Best,
D
DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 1:35 am |
John Mashey:
This wasn’t an ad hominem discussion: EG asked why the term deniers was used, and I explained.
An argument based on the competence, funding or financial motivation of opponents is by definition an ad hominem argument. That does not necessarily make the argument invalid or improper. Notably, when one side in an argument is making an argument from authority, the ad hominem argument is generally the most logical rejoinder. But in the context of a blog on AGW science, where the level of detail attempted should allow actual arguments about the science of AGW, it is rather pointless to make claims about the other side’s motivations.
I also didn’t use the phrase “lied for big tobacco” … although I wouldn’t disagree.
And I didn’t put quotes around “lied for big tobacco” — but I stand by it as an accurate characterization of your position, as do you apparently.
As you point out, position on AGW is largely determined by left-right ideology. You did succeed in showing this with your list of right-wing organizations which apparently supported tobacco and also deny AGW. This is of course about as relevant and as persuasive as the claim that AGW alarmists are all socialists (or the “political left”).
As far as scientists are concerned, your “few scientists” is a good example of the exception that proves the rule:
First, it is a mere two people.
Second, S. Fred Singer is 82 years old, and Frederick Seitz is a 96-year-old man, considered senile by RJ Reynolds since 1989.
Third, their defense of tobacco, judging from Wikipedia, appears to be limited to attacking the government’s claims on second-hand smoke. The reason tobacco-harm-denialism is legitimately used as an example of outrageousness to discredit its claimants is not because of the peripheral issue of second-hand smoke.
Fourth, we are not discussing the claims of these two men, but rather those of people such as McIntyre, McKitrick, and various other amateur and professional scientists and bloggers.
If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who “churn out disinformation” on tobacco and AGW denial, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended.
DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 2:55 am |
Dano,
1) I don’t see ‘greenhouse alarmist’ as any more or less offensive than ‘greenhouse denier,’ although personally I see myself as more of a ‘greenhouse agnostic.’ None of these categories warrant comparison with such as people who believe that the earth is flat, court jesters, people who claim to believe that smoking is harmless, etc.
2) I will assume you are merely lazy and not obtuse:
See e.g.,
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20010305/
NASA Goddard Scientist to Receive Heinz Award
Mar. 5, 2001
Dr. Jim Hansen, Chief of the Goddard Space Flight Center’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, N.Y., and one of this year’s recipients of a $250,000 Heinz Award, receives his award tonight at a ceremony at the Folger Shakespeare Library in Washington, D.C.
Eli Rabett // August 21, 2007 at 3:23 am |
First of all the largest atmospheric nuclear tests were in the 50s and involved fusion weapons. The US tests were held in the Pacific, at a number of small atolls. The Russian tests I believe were done in desert areas of the USSR. A LOT of stuff flew into the air, and some of these tests were serious multimegatonish.
Eli Rabett // August 21, 2007 at 3:30 am |
We have seen this before in the controversy about whether tobacco causes cancer. The tobacco companies bought cover from pseudo scientists and health policy types while their customers died at increasing rates. Documents revealed in the following litigation showed how a few scientists such as Fredrick Seitz sold out. Their tactic was to generate a fog of a false uncertainty. Links between the “tobacco group” and many peddling the climate line show that they are one and the same and what they are peddling is disinformation.
If you want to get more information on this, go to the archive of documents revealed in the tobacco litigation http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/ and google on Seitz, or Singer, or Lindzen. You could also search more broadly in http://tobaccodocuments.org
It is amusing to search the various names of those who deny serious risk from global climate change into this search engine. OTOH, ask yourself why this climate related article turns up in the material that Philip Morris turned over in discovery.
Decreasing cancer mortality and illness depended on educating people about the risks. Education and study were enemies of the tobacco companies, and they used their resources to lie to the public. Seitz and Singer among others helped They also recruited a younger generation. The risks from anthropic climate change also depends on education and cooperation. Seitz and Singer and their merry younger elves are happy to spread uncertainty and doubt.
Apres moi le deluge seems an appropriate motto for their club.
cce // August 21, 2007 at 6:58 am |
No one is questioning that Hansen won the Heinz Award. The question is the convoluted logic that somehow makes it a “fair rejoinder”. Unless Hansen truly is clairvoyant, he didn’t spend 30 years working on climate science with the expectation that he would win a $250,000 award.
Contrast this with think tanks and “scientists” who receive payment-as-they-go from the “doubt is our business” industries for the purpose of putting out gibberish for public consumption.
Dano // August 21, 2007 at 11:56 am |
Ooooohhh!
Receiving award = writing articles for pay/stipend for website/salary.
Who knew?
Best,
D
Chris O'Neill // August 21, 2007 at 2:24 pm |
“If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who “churn out disinformation” on tobacco and AGW denial, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended”, referring to Singer and Seitz.
It’s interesting that under slightly different cicumstances, the following statement could be applied.
“If these two men are the best you can do for an example of scientists who supply information on tobacco and AGW scepticism, then you have proved quite the opposite of what you have intended.”
DWPittelli // August 21, 2007 at 8:04 pm |
Dano, cce, et al:
1) Again, exactly two scientists, both over age 80, have been named. Neither has done any research which any of us are discussing.
2) I was not being facetious when I said “Personally I don’t think that James Hansen’s views have been swayed by the $250,000 he got from John Kerry’s wife.” I don’t.
3) Do any of you have reason to believe that, say, McIntyre and McKitrick are propounding disingenuous views because of payments from oil companies? (Or in the past, from tobacco companies?)
4) If a $10,000 paid-for document comes out, you are free to attack it on the merits, as well as on the incentives provided by the funding. I do not believe that we are currently debating any such documents (e.g., that Climate Audit’s entries were so funded).
5) I don’t think the people claiming the existence of a nefariously funded “denialist machine” would change their tune if the denialist funding came in the form of $250,000 payments called “prizes” or “awards.”
george // August 21, 2007 at 9:00 pm |
“Receiving award = writing articles for pay/stipend for website/salary”
Ah, yes, the devastating “ad Hansenem” argument:
“Because of the Heinz award, Hansen is now forever beholden to Teresa Heinz Kerry and must do whatever she asks him to (as long as John is OK with it, of course).”
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 12:11 am |
Lindzen, as well, who is still a prof at MIT.
You’re right about them both being old, but the anti-AGW machine’s been running about 20 years now. Both of S&S were very active parts of that machine in the 1990s despite, as you so kindly point out, they’ve done nothing to give them expertise in the area.
I’m not at all clear as to why you mention research at all, though. The denialist game plan isn’t to fund research – they know that legitimate research will support, rather than weaken, the science they are trying to discredit.
The game plan is to fund people with impressive titles following their name, to try to fool the public into believing that legitimate scientists are wrong.
I suspect you know all this, though …
DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 1:05 am |
dhogaza,
1) The point of an ad hominem argument is to discredit the other side’s argument, which can make sense to the extent the other side is using an argument from authority. I don’t see a lot of arguments from authority on this specialist blog.
2) From Wikipedia:
A 1991 article in Consumers’ Research entitled “Passive Smoking: How Great a Hazard?” is also sometimes used to characterize Richard Lindzen as a tobacco spokesperson or expert. That article says, “Richard Lindzen, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has emphasized that problems will arise where we will need to depend on scientific judgement, and by ruining our credibility now we leave society with a resource of some importance diminished. The implementation of public policies must be based on good science, to the degree that it is available, and not on emotion or on political needs. Those who develop such policies must not stray from sound scientific investigations, based only on accepted scientific methodologies.” The article concludes with the statement, “Such has not always been the case with environmental tobacco smoke.”[22] However, Lindzen is not being directly quoted in the article, and the pro-tobacco views in that case are those of the article’s authors, not necessarily Lindzen.
Perhaps you have something more damning in mind.
DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 1:11 am |
On this site, I believe we are more interested in people doing research (such as McIntyre and McKitrick), than in hidebound seniors who used to be real scientists.
I share your disgust with “scientists” who use their “impressive titles” to make claims about which they are not expert, especially but not only if this is due to monetary incentive.
Boris // August 22, 2007 at 1:26 am |
“Do any of you have reason to believe that, say, McIntyre and McKitrick are propounding disingenuous views because of payments from oil companies?”
Not necessarily, but to things to clear up on M&M.
First, they are often cited by the “denial machine” (check out Townhall’s interview with McI. The Headline is “NASA blocked climate blogger from data.”). The “denial machine” exaggerates anything that they do. M&M exaggerate anything that they do. It’s a kind of symbiotic relationship. Perhaps they are unpaid, but merely “useful.”
Second, neither has added anything to the scientific understanding of AGW aside from a small correction to the surface temp data. If some on the right wing had not decided that global warming was a socialist plot, you would certainly not have heard of them at all.
Alan Woods // August 22, 2007 at 3:26 am |
Tamino, you wrote:
“And let’s be perfectly, absolutely, unambiguously clear about this: I do *not* use “denialist” or “denier” to denote people of good faith. For those, I would indeed describe them as “skeptics.” I use “denialist” specifically to mean those who are *not* of good faith; they’re in denial.
Tamino, do you maintain your assertion that Roger Pielke Sr is not of good faith?
He writes in his blog:
“In terms of my view on added CO2, it is a major human climate forcing, but not the only significant one. Indeed, its radiative forcing does not appear to be most important in terms of how regional weather and other climate components are altered.”
I can understand that you might disagree with him, but to say he is a ‘denialist’ as you did in an earlier thread is quite remarkable.
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 3:37 am |
Yes, of course.
Why did you ruin your sentence by including them?
They’re not doing research, they’re trying to discredit valid research.
They’re wrong on the hockey stick, as has been laboriously pointed out to them, and McIntyre continues to claim that he’s “debunked” it (despite the National Academy of Sciences panel saying, in essence, “he’s full of shit”).
In this past week, he’s had a photo of asphalt and buildings which he claims is the site of the Tucson Airport temp recording station, claiming “see how bad the data is they’re collecting?” despite being told it’s not there, and being shown google earth maps of where the station actually is (in the middle of a field, just as it should be).
He has claimed that NASA singled him out and refused to give him data, after he spidered their site and their webmaster (reasonably enough) blocked him until he found out what was up (and afterwards, he was given access, but he still is telling the RW blogosphere that NASA was hiding their data and keeping it secret).
And he continues to try to make a mountain out of a molehill with his statistically insignificant error found in the NASA-GISS surface temp data.
This isn’t research as I understand it.
Perhaps you have a different opinion.
Oh, and Lindzen *did* lend his name to the anti-second hand tobacco smoke regulation crowd … an area of science in which he has zero expertise (see a pattern here?)
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 3:39 am |
He not only writes in his blog, he also testified more than once to congressional committees led by Republican anti-science types like Inhofe.
And, ummm, see, he hasn’t always said things like that nice cherry-picked quote you’re presenting us.
Fielding Mellish // August 22, 2007 at 10:13 am |
“He writes in his blog: “In terms of my view on added CO2, it is a major human climate forcing, but not the only significant one. Indeed, its radiative forcing does not appear to be most important in terms of how regional weather and other climate components are altered.”” Excerpting that bare passage implies to me argument from authority and strikes me as an example of implied hedging characteristic of the directed disinformation campaign. Without context, the reader has no way of evalualting the thrust of the passage. It easily could be part of the larger thought that ‘we can’t yet forecast local weather in the short term based on global CO2 conditions,’ which has very little if anything to do with AGW, or it could precede the sweeping statement that ‘if the sun goes nova, CO2 won’t matter,’ for example. Without knowing on what authority the original author’s “my view” stands and what other GW forcings he equates in magnitude to CO2 released by human efforts, the implied message to the casual reader (a/the target for AGW disinformation) is that CO2 is nothing to worry about. I merely request that you supply more context, or at least linkage, when presenting inside baseball talk for consumption by the outside reader.
Beyond that (and no longer discussing the quote from RP, Sr.), implicit or express uncertainty derived from or influenced by the afore-discussed core disinformation campaign still is tainted by that campaign. Contributory, secondary, and derivative disinformation is just as corrosive as the original direct disinformation; propaganda spread by unknowing aiders and abettors is just as destructive as the original. I suppose I figure that a person conveying disinformation is a disinformationist, despite their other redeeming qualities.
Dano // August 22, 2007 at 11:44 am |
but to say he is a ‘denialist’ as you did in an earlier thread is quite remarkable.
Obfuscationist, then.
With a fan base of hard-core denialists.
Best,
D
DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 12:00 pm |
Boris: (of M&M) “neither has added anything to the scientific understanding of AGW aside from a small correction to the surface temp data.”
That alone would be something worthy of note. But it would be more accurate to say they have not done anything on AGW which the reigning scientific bodies have acknowledged, aside from a 0.15C correction to a few years of the US surface temp data.
Unlike this so-called “y2K error” their critique of the hockey stick is sufficiently complicated that no one has had to concede anything publicly, and it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will.
The attempts of M&M et al to require transparency in the “corrected” temperature record are, to my mind, quite important and likely to bear fruit. Results not sufficiently public to be reproduced are not science, but mere assertion.
I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.
Chris O'Neill // August 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm |
“Again, exactly two scientists, both over age 80, have been named. Neither has done any research which any of us are discussing.”
And very, very little research is done by anyone that casts any sort of doubt on AGW. Consequently, scepticism of AGW is based almost entirely on argument from authority. The authority depends substantially on two aged scientists who have done credible climate research a long time in the past, simply because there are so few sceptical authorities who have done climate research.
Simon D. // August 22, 2007 at 2:09 pm |
While I agree that the evidence suggested aerosols played a role in the northern hemisphere ‘cooling’ from the 40s to the 70s, your comparison of NH and SH temperatures does not rule out other possible causes: i) the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (forced by the THC?), and ii) land use changes, notably huge increase in irrigation, both of which would have had a disproportionate effect on NH temperatures.
Also — if you want to evaluate the bomb testing, zoom in on Bikini or Enewtak in the Marhsall Is. using Google Earth. You can see several of the craters. The bombs were dropped on the atolls or in the shallow lagoons.
Dano // August 22, 2007 at 3:26 pm |
…it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will
…I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.
I’m beginning to think our bud DWP is a PR bot loosed from deep inside an advertising office somewhere.
This advertising office being in the business for some time, as the signature recycled argumentation shows.
IOW: the lather, rinse, repeat has the same ineluctable signature as, say, oxygen isotopes in ice or carbon isotopes in corn.
Your are what you eat (or you are the FUD you purvey).
Best,
D
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 6:37 pm |
No one has had to concede anything in public or private because M & M, despite all their blathering, are wrong. The claim that their work is too complex for the professional scientists and statisticians who refute them is bull****.
Not at all. M & M have lost that one.
Not that it matters, of course. The hockey stick is *so* last millenium, after all. Real climate science has moved on, far past the hockey stick.
The only reason you hear about the hockey stick is because denialists keep shouting …
1. “the hockey stick is a fraud”
and
2. “this disproves the AGW hypothesis”
#1 is wrong, and even if true, #2 would not follow.
But Dano’s right, you’ve exposed yourself as being nothing more than a parrot repeating the same old tired stuff we’ve all heard a zillion times.
Steve Bloom // August 22, 2007 at 8:04 pm |
dhogaza, FYI the Congressional testimony has been from RP Jr. rather than RP Sr. Jr. is a political scientist who is on is on sabbatical just now, but his views can be seenhere. Based on this data, obfuscation appears to be a heritable trait.
caerbannog // August 22, 2007 at 8:10 pm |
DWP said,
I think also a regular reader of Climate Audit etc., will see that there is a good chance that UHI is significantly underestimated by the AGW establishment.
The surface-station and satellite MSU data show very similar temperature trends for the past 3 decades.
So I guess that UHI effects somehow have managed to contaminate the satellite data as well as the surface data. Do you have any ideas as to how that might have occurred?
DWPittelli // August 22, 2007 at 8:26 pm |
Now I understand. Getting photographs of temp sites and reverse-engineering temp “corrections” and finding a 0.15 C change in the US record for 6 years isn’t “science” — at least, when the wrong side is doing it.
It would seem to me that for a GW alarmist to write that a 0.15 C change in the US record for 6 years is “statistically insignificant” is a pretty major climbdown right there. You sure you want to concede that level of noise in the data?
The Tucson site certainly looks like an active weather station. Even if it is not, the photo and coordinates posted allowed such falsification, making the process, yes, readily falsifiable, unlike dhogaza’s claim re Tuscon.
You can make a mistake and still be doing science. However, you can’t fail to make available the data which makes your claims falsifiable, and still be doing science. While the various correction concepts have been variously published, I do not believe that the temperature databases include any info on which specific corrections were done on each piece of temp data; one can only download the original and the corrected data and thus obtain the net effect of the several various corrections. (I would be happy to be shown to be wrong on this if you wish to include a URL.)
Perhaps you don’t like the deniers using intemperate language or overstating their case. They should stick to the facts and not use arguments from authority or ad hominem. No, real scientists write things like:
“What we have here is a case of dogged contrarians who present results in ways intended to deceive the public into believing that the changes have greater significance than reality. They aim to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I believe that these people are not stupid, instead they seek to create a brouhaha and muddy the waters in the climate change story. They seem to know exactly what they are doing and believe they can get away with it, because the public does not have the time, inclination, and training to discern what is a significant change with regard to the global warming issue….
The contrarians will be remembered as court jesters… Court jesters serve as a distraction, a distraction from usufruct. Usufruct is the matter that the captains wish to deny, the matter that they do not want their children to know about.”
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 10:40 pm |
Ah, thanks, I confuse those two frequently, for some reason :)
Getting photographs of temp sites is not science, no.
Nor did McIntyre “reserve engineer temp ‘corrections’ and find a 0.15C change…”
McIntyre noticed something strange in the data, pointed out to NASA. NASA then figured out the source of the strangeness and computed the change.
McIntyre smelled smokie. NASA put out the fire.
John Tofflemire // August 22, 2007 at 11:03 pm |
Although the hypothesis that an increase in aerosol emission was responsible for the cooling period the earth experienced from 1945 to 1975 is interesting, there is no scientific evidence that this is true. In fact, neither the degree nor the (positive-negative) sign of aerosols total radiative forcing effect has at present been ascertained. The IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report (page 169, Chapter 2 of the Physical Basis of Climate Change section) notes three satellite studies that estimate the direct radiative forcing for combined aerosols. Two of these three studies suggest, based on the reported confidence intervals of the estimations, that there is more than a 10% chance the actual total radiative forcing effect of human-based aerosols is positive. Although one study estimated a very clear negative total radiative forcing effect, the wide range of reported mean and standard deviation estimations led the IPCC FAR report to conclude that there is presently a “medium-low level of scientific understanding” (page 171) of the radiative forcing effect of aerosols. Therefore, Tamino’s statement that “If man-made aerosols were responsible for the cessation of global warming mid-century (which they were)” is based on faith rather than science.
Tamino also states that the southern hemisphere did not cool in the 1945 to 1975 period. However, if one examines the NOAA monthly land-based hemispheric temperature anomalies, in 63% of months in the 1945 to 1975 period the southern hemisphere temperature land anomaly was lower than the average land temperature anomaly in the 1940 to 1944 period (the peak years of warming in the 1910 to 1945 period). The conclusion that land areas in the southern hemisphere cooled modestly during the 1945 to 1975 period therefore seems reasonable.
However, it is important to note that there is more evidence of cooling in the northern hemisphere during the 1945 to 1975 period than in the southern hemisphere, since, in about 80% of the months in that period the northern hemisphere land temperature anomaly was cooler than its average during the 1940 to 1944 period. Although this provides some support for the hypothesis, it is also important to note that the average land temperature anomaly in the southern hemisphere since 1940 is about .13 degrees Celsius lower than in the northern hemisphere. No one is claiming that aerosols are responsible for keeping the southern hemisphere land masses relatively cooler than their northern counterparts. A more reasonable explanation for the lower southern hemisphere land temperature anomaly is that relatively more land area in the southern hemisphere faces an ocean than in the northern hemisphere. If this is the case, then the greater observed cooling in the northern hemisphere during the 1945 to 1975 period may simply be due to its relatively greater amount of interior area than to the effect of aerosols.
[Response: I agree that the SH was cooler from 1945 to 1975, on average, than it was from 1940 to 1945. But that's not the same as 30 years of *cooling*. The entire century, the planet has been cooler than during the paleocene-eocene thermal maximum, but that hardly means we've had 50 million years of continuous cooling. In fact during the period 1945 to 1975, the SH was warming, but not until about the end of this period did it consistently surpass its 1940-1945 level.
The bulk of evidence suggests that modern aerosol levels have a net cooling effect, although that conclusion is not incontrovertible. But aerosol levels during the post-war industrial period, with unrestrained sulfate emissions, were not the same that they are today; note that sulfate aerosols were so prevalent that eventually the industrialized nations felt the need to limit their emission because of the byproduct known as "acid rain." And the cooling effect of sulfates from massive volcanic eruptions is, quite simply, absolutely incontrovertible. To say that "there is no scientific evidence" of mid-century aerosol cooling is not just false, it's foolish.]
Deech56 // August 22, 2007 at 11:24 pm |
RE: caerbannog // Aug 22nd 2007 at 8:10 pm
“The surface-station and satellite MSU data show very similar temperature trends for the past 3 decades.
“So I guess that UHI effects somehow have managed to contaminate the satellite data as well as the surface data. Do you have any ideas as to how that might have occurred?”
Once the Watts crew starts photographing satellites, all will be clear.
dhogaza // August 22, 2007 at 11:54 pm |
Our host:
His own post doesn’t even support his conclusion.
Which means two of the three showed a greater than 80% chance that the net effect was negative.
And the third presumably came down even more heavily in favor of that conclusion.
“medium-low level of understanding” is not “not understood at all”.
Neither of these statements support the conclusion that
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 1:37 am |
dhogaza: Nor did McIntyre “reserve [sic] engineer temp ‘corrections’ and find a 0.15C change…” McIntyre noticed something strange in the data, pointed out to NASA. NASA then figured out the source of the strangeness and computed the change. McIntyre smelled smokie. NASA put out the fire.
dhogaza’s characterization is tendentious.
McIntyre was reverse-engineering the temp corrections when the errors in the data became obvious to him, as did their cause. As the letter from McIntyre to Hansen and Ruedy informing them of the error begins:
Dear Sirs,
In your calculation of the GISS “raw” version of USHCN series, it appears to me that, for series after January 2000, you use the USHCN raw version whereas in the immediately prior period you used USHCN time-of-observation or adjusted version. In some cases, this introduces a seemingly unjustified step in January 2000.
cce // August 23, 2007 at 1:46 am |
” I don’t think the people claiming the existence of a nefariously funded “denialist machine” would change their tune if the denialist funding came in the form of $250,000 payments called ‘prizes’ or ‘awards.’”
In other words, you do believe that everything Hansen did prior to 2001 was in anticpation of a $250,000 award, and you apparently believe that scientists and think-tanks who receive funding from industry sources specifically to attack AGW theory are on equal moral footing.
Maybe CATO earned its industry funding when Pat Michaels “proved” Hansen’s models were “400% wrong.” Such great science these guys do.
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 2:38 am |
cce,
I do not believe that Hansen was motivated by “anticpation of a $250,000 award” as I have made clear here more than once. I also do not believe that M&M are motivated by money. I do think there is a lot more money to be made supporting AGW, so the claim that its opponents are all bought off is somewhat more absurd than the claim for the opposite side, but both are probably wrong and should be beside the point.
People in public relations are of course prostitutes; that is part of their job. Scientists should not be. But when judging scientific arguments, who is and is not a whore should be secondary to arguments about the actual science, which can be made provided their data and methods/algorithms are provided.
We know that McIntyre’s 0.15 C correction is correct now that the keepers of the data have acknowledged him to be so. We shouldn’t care what are his motivations, especially as he makes all of his work open to scrutiny and to falsification. Would that everyone in this debate did so.
Dano // August 23, 2007 at 3:31 am |
DWP:
Your FUD isn’t good enough for the readers here. IOW: you aren’t fooling anyone.
Best,
D
John Tofflemire // August 23, 2007 at 4:50 am |
Tamino stated in his rebuttal to my post that “aerosol levels during the post-war industrial period, with unrestrained sulfate emissions, were not the same that they are today”.
According to the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (in Chapter 2, page 160), a recent study suggests that the total amount of global anthropogenic SO2 emissions fell from 73 TgS-1 in 1980 to 54 TgS-1 in 2000. Another study noted in the IPCC report suggests that SO2 emissions in 25 countries in Europe (presumably most of Western Europe) fell from 18 TgS-1 in 1980 to 4 TgS-1 in 2000 while the IPCC report also notes an EPA study that estimates SO2 emissions in the US fell from 12 TgS-1 in 1980 to 8 TgS-1 in 2000. In addition, the same report references another study stating that SO2 emissions in Asia currently total 17 TgS-1 and it is thought that emissions from Asia have increased significantly in recent years according to the report. Unless SO2 emissions fell at an astonishing rate between 1970 and 1980, one may presume that global SO2 emission levels in 1970 were only modestly higher than in 1980.
Since the IPCC report implies that current SO2 emission levels may not have a discernable negative radiative forcing impact, it is difficult to imagine what level of SO2 emissions would have produced the cooling observed in the 1945 to 1975 period. Indeed, if all of the SO2 emissions in Asia currently total only 17 TgS-1 even given the astonishing levels of air pollution in every major Chinese city (and there are lots of them), it is difficult if not impossible to imagine that SO2 emission levels in 1945 were significantly higher than the 73 TgS-1 figure reported in 1980.
The IPCC report also notes that southern hemisphere SO2 emissions made up only 11 TgS-1 of the 2000 global total, up from only 9 TgS-1 in 1980. That means that northern hemisphere SO2 emissions in 1980 were 64 TgS-1 or 55 TgS-1 greater than SO2 emissions in the southern hemisphere. If since, as Tamino states “the climate effect of man-made aerosols tends to be concentrated in the region of emission” and since global temperatures were rising in 1980, the 55 TgS-1 difference in SO2 emission levels between the northern and southern hemispheres must not have been sufficient to produce a cooling trend in the northern hemisphere.
In other words, what level of SO2 emissions in the northern hemisphere is Tamino claiming that, apparently, erupted suddenly in 1945 overwhelming the warming effect of increasing CO2 levels and resulting in a period of modest global cooling from 1945 to 1975? And, what evidence is there that such a level of SO2 emissions was in fact present at that time? Until such evidence is made clear, the statement that there is no scientific evidence of mid-century aerosol cooling is neither false nor foolish.
[Response: The acid-rain-producing concentrations of industrial sulfate aerosols pre-1980 is *scientific evidence* that their concentration was higher than current concentration. The much lower concentrations of greenhouse gases pre-1980 is *scientific proof* that the climate forcing of greenhouse gases was less than today, so aerosol concentrations didn't have to be high enough to negate *today's* greenhouse levels, just past levels. The aerosol-induced cooling of massive volcanic eruptions is *scientific proof* that they have a global cooling effect.
I never said there was ironclad proof. But I say again, your claim that there is *no scientific evidence* is not merely false, it's foolish.]
cce // August 23, 2007 at 6:40 am |
You claim that Hansen winning a $250,000 award is the same as scientists and think tanks taking money specifically to discredit AGW theory. “One side takes money, the other side takes money, so let’s call it a draw.” No. It is not a draw.
Hansen won the $250,000 decades after he first began working on climate change, and 13 years after he said he was “99% certain” that global warming was here. About the same time Pat Michaels was testifying before Congress, he was making the bet that 10 years later temperatures would substantially cooler. Gee, why didn’t anyone give him $250,000?
If Exxon waited 13 years to pay off CATO or CEI, based on the strength and accuracy of their science, then I supposed they would be on equal footing. But they’re not.
John Mashey // August 23, 2007 at 7:28 am |
3 “HEMISPHERES”, ENSOs, VOLCANOES
In the spirit of exploratory data analysis, consider another way to analyze the data, which wouldn’t “prove” anything, but might also give insights:
a) Take the 3-banded GISTEMP data from 1930-2006 from:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/
“Annual Mean Temperature Change for Three Latitude Bands” (essentially
N: 30% of Earth Surface ~ N. of Tropic of Cancer
S: 30% ~ S. of Tropic of Capricorn
C: 40% in between
[not exactly, but close].
There is, after all, nothing magic about 2 hemispheres, and I can think of reasons why 3 bands might be more explanatory.
b) Add to each plot a scaled, inverted version of the SOI index from http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/enso/ensodef.html [handiest one that goes back beyond 1950], to get some indication of ENSO behavior, inverted to make jiggles in same direction. (I used -.5-.2*SOI to make reasonable graphs).
c) Add in markers of volcanoes, from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Explosivity_Index
A large volcanic eruption in low-latitudes can generate effects in North and South bands, due to Hadley Cell circulation patterns, whereas one would expect effects of North or South volcanoes to mostly stay there. Of course, big volcanoes have more global effects than small ones, but it takes a while for the effects to spread.
Volcanoes, where 2nd number is from VEI scale:
4: cataclysmic
5: paroxysmal
6: colossal
7: super-colossal (fortunately none of these recently),
8: mega-colossal ” ”
N
1947 4 Hekla (Iceland)
1980 5 St Helens
1992 4 Spurr
S
1990 4 Hudson (Chile)
C
1943-1952 4 Paricutin, Mexico
1963 5 Agung, Bali
1982 5 El Chichon, Mexico
1983 4 Galunggung, Java
1991 6 Pinataubo, Phillipines [the biggie]
4) EYEBALLING the 3 Excel charts [no regressions, and not being too worried about modest year-off effects, since it matters when a volcano happens in a year.]:
ENSOs: naturally, the C Temperature graph looks more like the ENSO graph than do the N or S graphs.
The S graph is less spikey then the other two, and doesn’t seem to pay much attention to ENSOs, but big dips seem to correlate with S and C volcanoes.
Assuming the SOI from the source given above is OK, then there were big El Ninos in both 1941 and 1942, followed by several years of modest La Ninas.
This is right about where the peak in the global smoothed temperature hits … but the bump in C temperature doesn’t appear in N or S. Also, Paricutin fired up in 1943 and goes, on-and-off into 1952, and maybe that helped keep C temperatures down for a while (?).
Of course, the climate system has many other moving parts (natural and anthropogenic), but ENSOs and volcanoes are rare in being clearly able to have spikey short-duration effects … which is why one cannot get too carried away with short-term jiggles, and the 3-banded graphs look somewhat different than the 2-banded ones.
[Response: Excellent! Thanks for the ideas, and thanks for the pointer to el Nino data pre-1950 (which I hadn't previously found).]
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 12:26 pm |
Dano,
A perfect example of sticking to the point and arguing about science rather than how your opponents are disingenuous and stupid. If only everyone in this debate had as much class as you, we could really get somewhere.
[Response: I think I'll agree that Dano's last comment was just negativity, and lacked substantive scientific content -- but I'll strongly *disagree* that he has no class. He's made many comments here, and is a valuable contributor.
There's a fine line between passionate rebuttal and just "fuming," and lately some of us have been flirting with that line. Lord knows I'm far from perfect in this regard -- but again I'll say that the more we discuss the actual science, the more progress we'll make toward understanding.]
george // August 23, 2007 at 1:31 pm |
DWPitelli said: “Unlike this so-called “y2K error” their critique of the hockey stick is sufficiently complicated that no one has had to concede anything publicly, and it is too early to tell exactly how far the AGW establishment will be climbing down from the hockey stick claim, but climb down they will.”
I suggest you read what the NRC panel said about the Mann results. You might be surprised.
From Surface Temperature Reconstructions
for the Last 2,000 Years(NRC, June 2006)
“The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998,
1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the
Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during
at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has
subsequently been supported by an array of evidence
that includes both additional large-scale surface
temperature reconstructions and pronounced
changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such
as melting on icecaps and the retreat of glaciers
around the world, which in many cases appear to be
unprecedented during at least the last 2,000 years. [emphasis added by me]
Not all individual proxy records indicate that the
recent warmth is unprecedented, although a larger
fraction of geographically diverse sites experienced
exceptional warmth during the late 20th century
than during any other extended period from A.D.
900 onward.
Based on the analyses presented in the original
papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting
evidence, the committee fi nds it plausible that the
Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last
few decades of the 20th century than during any
comparable period over the preceding millennium.
The substantial uncertainties currently present in
the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface
temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower
our confi dence in this conclusion compared to the
high level of confi dence we place in the Little Ice
Age cooling and 20th century warming. Even less
confi dence can be placed in the original conclusions
by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the
warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at
least a millennium” because the uncertainties inherent
in temperature reconstructions for individual
years and decades are larger than those for longer
time periods, and because not all of the available
proxies record temperature information on such
short timescales.
Surface temperature reconstructions for periods
prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple
lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that
climatic warming is occurring in response to human
activities, and they are not the primary evidence.”
The “hockey stick” shape does not just depend on data from Mann et al, as you can clearly see on the IPCC graphic shown here, which is an overlay of data from many different studies (not just the Mann ones).
So, even if the Mann results were excluded entirely, the hockey stick would remain. It might not be Mann’s hockey stick, but most hockey sticks look pretty much the same, with only minor differences (some are straight, some curved, etc)
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 5:28 pm |
george,
And we might instead note a considerable climbdown if we instead note:
1) The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 100o than found in Mann & Jones 2003.
2) That the word “plausible” does not imply even more probable than not, let alone anything like 95% certainty.
3) That we might have instead bolded:
Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium” because the uncertainties inherent in temperature reconstructions for individual
years and decades are larger than those for longer time periods, and because not all of the available proxies record temperature information on such short timescales.
I don’t expect to convince you of this, but I do predict the climbdown on the elimination of the Medieval Warm Period will continue and be obvious to all within 5 years.
Note that I agree that the existence of a Medieval Warm Period does not disprove man-caused CO2-induced global warming. Indeed, it seems likely to me that the globe has warmed about 1.0F over the least century, and that by a first-order calculation this is about what we’d expect from the well-documented increases in CO2 and methane levels.
Dano // August 23, 2007 at 5:34 pm |
Response: I think I’ll agree that Dano’s last comment was just negativity, and lacked substantive scientific content — but I’ll strongly *disagree* that he has no class. He’s made many comments here, and is a valuable contributor.
There’s a fine line between passionate rebuttal and just “fuming,” and lately some of us have been flirting with that line. Lord knows I’m far from perfect in this regard — but again I’ll say that the more we discuss the actual science, the more progress we’ll make toward understanding.]
The overarching point here is that the atomistic quibbling over mis/malinterpreted findings is, IME, a purposeful delaying tactic. Whether or not my funnin’ about automated FUDbots is based in reality, the underlying point about FUD purveying is valid. IMHO there is no honest attempt to “discuss” the “science” here by DWP.
I’ve seen this tactic a million times.
Best,
D
Eli Rabett // August 23, 2007 at 6:02 pm |
Not all volcanic eruptions are equivalent wrt climate. Mt St. Helen’s blew out sideways and there was very little material pushed up to the bottom of the stratosphere for example.
george // August 23, 2007 at 6:54 pm |
DWPitelli: said” That we might have instead bolded:
Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that “the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year,”
The problem with your thesis (that scientists will/should be “climbing down from the hockey stick claim”) is that the “hockey stick” shape does not depend on temperatures of individual years or of an individual decade (which the sentence you highlighted refers to).
It represents trends over multiple decades/centuries ( the handle and blades of the stick, respectively).
Brief years of warming or cooling mean very little over the long run. The trend over decades and centuries is all that really matters when one is trying to track climate change..
The text that you selected does nothing to negate the reality of those basic trends (which the NRC report affirmed).
I didn’t/don’t expect to change your opinion either. I just wanted to point out that the NRC report does not support your claim about the hockey stick.
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 9:04 pm |
Dano,
My first post discussed why I thought the initial post’s third graph was misleading. I believe it was substantive, on-topic and correct; although I don’t believe anyone cared to post agreement or disagreement with me.
My following posts were essentially all about my objection to the pseudo-arguments about the motives of the AGW skeptics, and why I thought them pointless and unpersuasive, especially within this type of forum. Your paranoic attribution to me of motives such as a “purposeful delaying tactic” would of course fall under this category.
By the way, FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. While each side in any argument can believe that the other is attempting to promote uncertainty and doubt in the face of the first side’s obvious truth, it is a form of begging the question, and it is particularly absurd for those warning of catastrophic warning to accuse the other side of abusing “fear.” To the contrary, it would be more accurate for you to accuse the other side of promoting complacence in the face of real danger, which ought to be feared.
But as it happens, I do not advocate complacency, but rather a sufficient carbon tax as to eliminate the use of coal in this country over the next decade, as well as drastic reductions in the use of oil and gas for the production of electricity. (Naturally we will have to build a lot of windmills and nuclear power plants to do this; I am on record as supporting windmills even on the pristine mountain onto which my house looks.)
DWPittelli // August 23, 2007 at 9:24 pm |
george,
yes, but…
1) The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 1000 than found in Mann & Jones 2003.
…does
John Mashey // August 23, 2007 at 10:48 pm |
Eli: if the note about Mt. St Helens was for me, I agree 100%: it matters where volcanoes are, it matters how big they are, and it indeed matters whether they blow up (widespread effects, eventually) or go sideways (big, short effects locally).
It’s simply that we’re looking at time series where we *know* volcanoes and ENSOs can cause big gyrations, even if we don’t have very good measurements in the early periods. Like I’ve said, it’s hard to know what your daily weight change is when you keep pet elephants in your room, but you should get excited about daily jiggles.
My preference would be to use charts that include major volcanoes, and then delete or gray out those whose structural nature minimizes their effects. But a least looking caused me to learn one thing I didn’t know: I’d never heard of Mount Hunter in Chile, but via that volcano URL, it seemed to have contributed to the dip whose main cause was Pinataubo, but the latter was such a big deal that Hunter was ignored.
Brightside // August 23, 2007 at 11:34 pm |
Tamino, thank you for your very important blog. I am impressed by your presentation and analysis of the data. I will continue to read with interest and hold onto the hope that one day our governments will develop a meaningful political response to climate change. Thank you again. People like yourself do make a difference.
george // August 24, 2007 at 2:26 am |
DWPitelli claims that “The graph showing the Moberg multiproxy of 2005, with considerably warmer peaks around year 1000 than found in Mann & Jones 2003.
…does” [support his claim that scientists will be “climbing down from the hockey stick claim”]
So, let me get this straight. You are basing your assessment on the result of a single study (Moberg) at a single point in time (1000) out of that 1000 year stretch?
Let’s take a close look at that graph in the NRC report, shall we? It shows a difference between the peak in about 1000 for Mann and Jones and the peak for Moberg of about 0.2C.
The Moberg peak is still 0.4C below today’s temperature and for the rest of the period between 1000 and th present it was below todays temp by an even greater amount.
If 0.2C (the difference between mann and moberg in 1000) is “considerable” (as you say), then it stands to reason that (by your own assessment) the 0.4C difference between Moberg in 1000 and the current temperature must be “very considerable”.
DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 4:35 am |
Indeed. 0.4C is considerable — although comparing 1000AD to 2000AD temperatures is fraught with more difficulty than is judging updated estimates for 1000AD temperatures.
My prediction, admittedly unfalsifiable at present, is that the Medieval Climate Optimum, which was disappeared by Mann in 2003, and brought back to 0.2C by Moberg in 2005, will be at least double that in a few years.
I do not expect people like Mann or Hansen to concede anything to McIntyre — indeed, given’s Hansen’s counterproductive lack of class since the 0.15C US error was found, I expect if he addresses it at all he will claim McIntyre got lucky like a clock right twice a day — but in this sense (of a quiet return of the MCO) McIntyre’s critique will be validated, as will be some considerable portion of his more recent attacks on the correction factors (and lack thereof) used by Hansen et al on the thermometer readings of the past century. I do not, however, expect the majority of the reported 0.6C warming to be found wanting. And I do not think the changes will prove dispositive to the real-world debate, which is what ought to be done.
cce // August 24, 2007 at 7:58 am |
The statement from Mann et al singling out 1998 and the 1990s was rightly criticized by the NRC, as that was too specific a claim to make. It has no bearing on the significance of the “Hockey Stick” (The 1990s aren’t even part of the Hockey Stick). As the quote made clear, the balance of evidence says that that the last few decades have been warmer than at any comparable time covered by these multi-proxy studies. The Moberg reconstruction says the same thing.
In addition to mis-stating the NRC’s conclusions, another common claim of the “skeptics” to say that AR4 quietly “abandoned” the Hockey Stick, which is total nonsense. The SPM expands the period of time from 1000 years (from the TAR) to 1300 years, with a 66%+ (”likely”) probability. The body of AR4 WGI includes the Hockey Stick, and many other multi-proxies, none of which put past temperatures as high as they are today. Furthermore, AR4 specifically rebukes the M&M criticism.
The notion that the scientific establishment is backing away from the Hockey Stick, or Multi-proxy reconstructions in general, lives on only in the minds of the skeptics.
cce // August 24, 2007 at 9:08 am |
The authority on sulfur emissions is David Stern who is cited in AR4. His web page is here:
http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/
His data is here:
http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/datasite.html
His sulfur page is here:
http://www.rpi.edu/~sternd/Sulfur.html
Sulfur Emissions increased very rapidly from the ’30s to about 1970. From 1970 until the late ’80s, emissions were flat. If SO2 has a cooling effect, it should show up in highly industrial regions since the effect is localized. I believe this is the case, as there is strong negative corellation for the US.
Stern breaks his data down by country so it would be possible to compare temperature increase (or lack thereof) and sulfur emissions based on country/region to determine if highly industrialized regions saw different temperature patterns than non-industrialized regions (hint).
DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 2:21 pm |
cce,
“Hockey Stick” is a somewhat vague term. Your latest claims, if directed to me, don’t seem to amount to even an attempt at refutation of my quite specific claims.
So we agree! :-)
If Mann has been “rightly criticized” for comments on the recent data, and if the Medieval Climate Optimum has come back by 0.2C since Mann, then my point is again made: the climbdown from Mann (or “Hockey Stick” if you will) has been occurring on both ends. Only time will tell by how much.
It is of course good that science is not dependent on the eternal wisdom of experts, as if Mann or Hansen were to the modern period as Aristotle were to the Medieval. (I do not see myself as opposed to climate science, like a Rush Limbaugh, or an Al Gore, or perhaps even Hansen for the last month, preferring moral and essentially religious arguments to scientific observation and reasoning.)
george // August 24, 2007 at 4:06 pm |
As I indicated above, the “hockey stick” shape for the temperature data is certainly not something that is restricted to the Mann results.
That’s pretty clear if you look at the I linked to aboveshowing overlap from many different studies.
Also, under that very NRC graph that shows the various temperature reconstructions for the past millenium (inclduing moberg and mann) the NRC states that
“This set of reconstructions conveys a qualitatively consistent picture of temperature
changes over the last 1,100 years, and especially the last 400.”
The hockey stick shape is a qualitative statement summarizing the form of the data.
You further state that
“My prediction, admittedly unfalsifiable at present, is that the Medieval Climate Optimum, which was disappeared by Mann in 2003, and brought back to 0.2C by Moberg in 2005, will be at least double that in a few years.”
That statement is not accurate. It should instead read: “My prediction, admittedly not supported by most evidence at present.”
Science is all about making statements based on evidence.
Falsifiable means something else: that it can be disproved, at least in principle.
Einstein’s Theory of Relativity is “falsifiable” (as is every good scientific theory).
Dano // August 24, 2007 at 5:20 pm |
The notion that the scientific establishment is backing away from the Hockey Stick, or Multi-proxy reconstructions in general, lives on only in the minds of the skeptics.
Remember the Baliunas and Soon (BS) paper a few years ago that sent them on a Heritage Victory Tour?
They “analyzed” ~ 200 multiproxy reconstructions to “find” that there was no “global” warming. Glaring methodology aside, they were forced to ignore the (at the time) 7 global multiproxy reconstructions, because they showed that currently it is warmer now than in the past. Instead BS
cherry-pickedfocused on the regional reconstructions in China, sub-Arctic, etc that showed the MWP in those areas was warmer than today, in order to hide the fact that global multiproxy reconstructions support Mann et al 1998.Best,
D
DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 9:13 pm |
“Science is all about making statements based on evidence.”
I agree that half of my statement — my prediction — is not science, as not experimentally falsifiable or even “calculationally” falsifiable. I have already made that clear. It is of course falsifiable in time.
The other half of my statement is not a prediction, but the mere noting of the extent to which Mann’s reconstruction has already been falsified or “rightly criticized,” the levels of which I believe we have no substantive disagreement, but merely a semantic one.
Debating exactly how flat must the pre-industrial record be to look like a “hockey stick” would be only marginally more scientific, and fruitful, than debating how many angels must fit on a pin.
I do not believe I have quoted Baliunas and Soon, but only sources cce provided. Relevance?
Dano // August 24, 2007 at 10:22 pm |
It is of course falsifiable in time.
No. Your hypothesis is written to be falsifiable and shown to be true or not true in time.
But the relevance of my mentioning BS is that they have a history in cherry-picking to try to debunk the hockey stick, and they are way better at it than you. You should ring them up and get some pointers.
Best,
D
DWPittelli // August 24, 2007 at 11:37 pm |
Dano,
Do you have any substantive disagreement with me? Or merely semantic quibbling, ad hominem and snark?
I haven’t seen any of the former, and even if you are going to rely on semantic quibbling, ad hominem and snark, it helps to have a substantive point.
Hank Roberts // August 25, 2007 at 1:12 am |
Google Scholar for “Medieval Climate Optimum” — that’s Singer, Baliunas, and Soon’s attempt to broaden the notion of the local warm anomaly in Europe to make it sound like it was a worldwide condition.
George // August 25, 2007 at 1:30 am |
DWPitelli
You seem to be confused about the meaning of “falsifiable” as it applies to science — specifically, to scientific hypotheses and theories.
That’s not merely quibbling about semantics. It is a key concept in science
A falsifiable hypothesis (or theory) is one that can be disproved, at least in principle.
Whether the evidence to disprove it yet exists is irrelevant, as long as such evidence might exist in the future.
That’s why I pointed out above that Einstein’s theory of relativity is falsifiable, even though no experiment to date has yet falsified it (gravity B may yet do that. Then again, maybe not).
If a hypothesis (or theory) is not falsifiable, it is not a “scientific” hypothesis (theory), by definition.
[Response: Just a note: Gravity B will test Einstein's theory of *general relativity*, his theory of gravity, which may or may not be falsified. But Enstein's theory of *special relativity* is very close to unshakeable -- not likely to be falsified for a very very very long time, if ever.]
cce // August 25, 2007 at 2:51 am |
The 1990s are not part of the Hockey Stick’s multi-proxy data. It has no bearing on the accuracy of the reconstruction. You cannot claim that a single decade or year is the hottest in a thousand years because it requires precision of past temperatures which we don’t have. You can, however, state with statistical assurance that the past few decades are warmer than any comparable time in the past 1000 (now 1300) years. If you believe you are agreeing with me (and the scientific establishment), then you can make that statement for yourself. But I’m sure you won’t, because you don’t believe it.
DWPittelli // August 25, 2007 at 3:18 am |
George,
I will resist the temptation to call my prediction science. While I have read the NRC report and the Wegman report, I base it in part on my experience with judging public actors by the nature of their statements, especially their choice of words and omissions, and as such see it as more of an art, or perhaps a social science.
You have perhaps adopted overly literal and unitary definitions of falsifiability and science, which are also complex concepts, still with various definitions and schools of thought. The Wikipedia article on falsifiability is fairly interesting. From it:
Some philosophers and scientists, most notably Karl Popper, have asserted that a hypothesis, proposition or theory is scientific only if it is falsifiable.
For example, “all men are mortal” is unfalsifiable, since no amount of observation could ever demonstrate its falsehood. “All men are immortal,” by contrast, is falsifiable, by the presentation of just one dead man. However, the unfalsifiable “all men are mortal” can be the logical consequence of a falsifiable theory, such as “all men die before they reach the age of 150 years”. Thus, unfalsifiable statements can always be put into a falsifiable framework. The falsifiable does not exclude the unfalsifiable, it embraces and exceeds it.
Not all statements that are falsifiable in theory are so in practice. For example, “it will be raining here in one million years” is theoretically falsifiable, but not practically.
I am not sure that every falsifiable statement or theory should be called “science” — as in the preceding sentence’s obviously baseless prediction, or even in cases where the prediction has a basis and proves well-founded.
For example, when Bill Clinton said, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinsky,” I knew instantly that he had closely scripted the entire sentence. That in fact he had had oral sex with her, but not coitus. And that his use of “that woman” was his way of pretending he couldn’t immediately remember her name, without having to explicitly lie about that either. You may find this hard to believe. But there was exactly one journalist at the next White House media gathering (televised) who made it clear to Clinton’s press secretary that he had come to the exact same conclusion as I did. (Clinton, being the President, had people such as press secretaries to mock such claims, so that he didn’t have to actually tell us any lies.)
In a case perhaps a bit more on the “science” side of the ledger, recently a semiotician columnist on Amazon made a series of bold falsifiable predictions concerning the TNR Scott Thomas author; while not every aspect was spot on, the predictions were quite accurate.
And on the other hand, some poker players are good at “reading” other players’ hands from their subconscious behavior, and prove their better-than-random skills by making money.
The point of all this? Like the semiotician or poker player, my interpretation, although falsifiable (and soon proven accurate) was more an art or aspect of my experience in writing and editing nonfiction, than it was a science.
In the case of the poker player, he’d probably in many cases be unable to tell you why he had come to a given conclusion, even if he wanted to. If so, he’s basically making an argument from authority. You’d still probably be a fool to bet against him. But I don’t know if “science” is the word to apply to what he does.
george // August 25, 2007 at 1:25 pm |
GWPitelli said “I am not sure that every falsifiable statement or theory should be called “science”.
On that we agree, but I never claimed as much.
I suggest you read what I said again:
“If a hypothesis (or theory) is not falsifiable, it is not a “scientific” hypothesis (theory), by definition.”
DWPittelli // August 25, 2007 at 1:46 pm |
cce,
The “Hockey Stick” may or may not be defined to include the 1990s, depending on whether you mean a particular graphic reconstruction as in the Mann 2003 paper, or the broader conception of a graph looking like a Hockey Stick, which has a basically flat temperature for 1,000 years, contrasting with a bend upward over the past century.
In either case the Medieval Warm Period is part of the Hockey Stick.
At any rate, the Mann “Hockey Stick” paper received criticism in the NRC report for its statistical methods of reconstructing the past*, as well as for its claims about the most recent decade.
Note how this line of argument started here, and that the NRC report’s repeated references to M&M’s work, all by itself, does refute Boris’s claim that “neither [McIntyre nor McKitrick] has added anything to the scientific understanding of AGW aside from a small correction to the surface temp data.”
You are right that I do not believe that you can “state with statistical assurance that the past few decades are warmer than any comparable time in the past 1000 (now 1300) years.” The extent of the MWP is not known to a sufficient level of accuracy to say this. The statistical error bands do not include all sorts of potential errors, relying as they do on various unquantified assumptions, such as the linear representativeness of the calibration period.
* e.g., “As part of their statistical methods, Mann et al. used a type of principal component
analysis that tends to bias the shape of the reconstructions…. In practice, this method, though not recommended, does not appear to unduly influence reconstructions of hemispheric mean temperature”
John Mashey // August 25, 2007 at 6:57 pm |
EG: are you still around?
You popped up once and have said nothing since. Have you by now gotten useful answers to your question about denialists?
TAMINO: Given that the original topic, a nice exploratory data analysis exercise, has been overrun by junk, how about trying again, so there’s a decent thread on this interesting topic [and whack us all when we go too far OT].
I still suggest trying the 3-zone data, and then maybe adding ENSO & volcano. I really think there is additional insight in going from Hemispheres to 3, for which there is at least a possible plausible physical reason [~Hadley Cells]. I haven’t tried 4.
Boris // August 25, 2007 at 7:10 pm |
“Note how this line of argument started here, and that the NRC report’s repeated references to M&M’s work, all by itself, does refute Boris’s claim…”
The very quote you give shows that the PCA that Mann used did not affect the results of the reconstruction. So what, exactly, did M&M contribute? I’m all for auditing and triple-checking, but M&M blow their contributions completely out of proportion. Has anything that we know about the climate changed to any significant degree based on their work? On how many occasions has McIntyre made some passing comment about a study? How many has he actually followed to completion? Climate Audit is a noise machine. To say that it has made any kind of real contribution is laughable.
dhogaza // August 25, 2007 at 8:02 pm |
Do you even read what you quotee?
Nothing in that statement contradicts the Mann hockey stick reconstruction. In essence, the criticism amounts to saying “Mann et all didn’t use the best method of analysis, but it’s good enough”.
You can spin away all you want, but the reality is that the NRC report supports the Mann hockey stick, and also points out that it doesn’t really matter given the large number of independent reconstructions that give similar results.
cce // August 25, 2007 at 11:01 pm |
The NRC report makes it clear that the methods that Mann et. al used do not change the conclusion that it is warmer today that at any time in the past. The report SUPPORTS the conclusions of the Hockey Stick. AR4 SUPPORTS the conclusions of the Hockey Stick.
There have been numerous reconstructions since the Hockey Stick and they all conclude the same thing. None of them conclude what skeptics have been programmed to believe: that the MWP was warmer than today. Frankly, I’d like to see the statistics behind the conlcusion that the MWP was both widespread and pervasive. But I doubt there is any. It is a defacto assumption of the skeptics, and every time anyone has tried to quantify it, it comes up short.
Heretic // August 26, 2007 at 1:50 am |
No kind of contribution from M&M or climate audit? Not entirely true. Mc Intyre (and his team possibly?) has spent enormous amounts of time and energy scrutinizing climate research. His results so far include 2 findings that have no significance whatsoever on the all body of evidence, the most recent of which he himself called “a micro-error.”
What the self appointed auditors have found seems to indicate that the researchers are actually careful enough to catch the important stuff.
DWPittelli // August 26, 2007 at 5:05 am |
Taking the NRC report only, since it was provided here by the “other side” from myself, we have acknowledgment of the utility of M&M’s criticism:
“McIntyre and McKitrick question the choice and application of statistical methods… These and other criticisms, explored briefly in the remainder of this chapter, raised concerns that led to new research and ongoing efforts to improve how surface temperature reconstructions are performed.”
I also stand by my reading of the damnation by faint praise contained in “this method, though not recommended, does not appear to unduly influence reconstructions of hemispheric mean temperature,” among some other clearer criticisms. (Not to mention “Paleoclimate research would benefit if individual researchers, professional societies, journal editors, and funding agencies continued to improve their efforts to ensure that these existing open access practices are followed” — something M&M have been complaining about but AGW alarmists tend to pooh-pooh.)
And I have quantified the extent to which Mann’s elimination of the MWP has already been reversed in the literature (i.e., 0.2C for Moberg, with other reconstructions all considerably less flat than Mann). Your claims that the “Mann hockey stick” has been “supported” are, on the other hand, vague both quantitatively (no number) and qualitatively (the “hockey stick” contains several claims, of which the elimination of the MWP is just one) and so cannot be agreed with or disagreed with; indeed, they are not falsifiable, or as clear as the NRC report’s conclusion that:
“Large-scale surface temperature reconstructions yield a generally consistent picture of temperature trends during the preceding millennium, including relatively warm conditions centered around A.D. 1000 (identified by some as the “Medieval Warm Period”) and a relatively cold period (or “Little Ice Age”) centered around 1700.”
***
“None of them conclude what skeptics have been programmed to believe: that the MWP was warmer than today.”
I am not such a skeptic. I do not claim to know whether the MWP was warmer than today. Indeed, I hardly think it relevant to the real debate, of whether AGW is a crisis or not.
I believe that AGW alarmists have come to take the claim of essentially stable preindustrial temperatures as holy writ to be defended because it means the warming of the last century is such an anomaly that it must be caused by man.
Actually the debate has moved beyond this, since most serious people, including myself (and M&M, by the way) agree that CO2 increases should be expected to have increased temperatures by about 0.6C, and that temperatures probably have increased by about that much.
What is in question now (re the potential looming crisis) is instead the extent to which global temperatures are driven by positive or negative feedbacks. When AGW alarmists figure out that 1,300 years of stable pre-industrial temperatures are actually significant evidence against the strongly positive feedbacks they need to realize their apocalyptic scenarios, they will embrace temperature reconstructions showing the MWP and other pre-industrial variations in temperature.
cce // August 26, 2007 at 11:06 am |
It probably goes without saying, but I meant “the past 1000 years” not the past in general.
inputted // August 26, 2007 at 5:01 pm |
I’ve seen no study supporting your boldface claim, Mr. P. What are you relying on for the notion that “strongly positive” feedbacks are used, by whom, to support “apocalyptic scenarios”? I’d appreciate cites to anything in the science you believe supports any of that.
Petro // August 26, 2007 at 6:17 pm |
inputted remarked to DWPitelli:
“I’d appreciate cites to anything in the science you believe supports any of that.”
Do we all.
DWPitelli stated:
“I have quantified the extent to which Mann’s elimination of the MWP has already been reversed in the literature”
Why not try to publish your observations in scientific journals?
dhogaza // August 26, 2007 at 8:39 pm |
You are free to do so, but the authors of that report are on record making clarifying statements that would indicate that it is, indeed, a misreading of their intent.
Likewise their use of the word “plausible”, which they intend to be read as “more likely than not”.
Of course, you may believe their clarifying statements, made in response to the denialists claiming their report debunks Mann, are outright lies.
That, too, is your right.
dhogaza // August 26, 2007 at 8:48 pm |
This is twisted nonsense. The AGW hypothesis is based on basic physics. Even if you were right about the “hockey stick” (intentional misreading of the NRC report isn’t persuasive), basic physics would hold.
DWPittelli // August 26, 2007 at 9:30 pm |
Petro,
The statement you refer to so mockingly is in fact based on the published line graph in the NRC report, as I have made clear throughout my comments.
inputted,
I am shocked that anyone here would be so ignorant as to call me out for my claim on feedbacks. Essentially everyone agrees that strong net positive feedback is necessary and sufficient for CO2 increases to cause catastrophic warming, as CO2 doubling without feedbacks would cause only about a 1.0C temperature increase.
Try Googling (”global warming” “positive feedback”) and note 213,000 hits. And from the NRC report, which I keep quoting because it represents a consensus view and has been claimed here to refute me:
“The combined effect of the various positive and negative feedbacks determines the sensitivity of the climate system and the sensitivity, in turn, determines how much the Earth will warm in response to a prescribed increase in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide or changes in other external forcing.”
DWPittelli // August 26, 2007 at 10:55 pm |
dhogaza,
I agree with your statement on the basic physics, as my comments here have consistently shown.
Note that several people here have imputed to me arguments which I have explicitly disclaimed. Isn’t it obvious to a careful reader of this page that this irrationality merely proves the essentially religious nature of their belief in catastrophic global warming?
(Indeed, the NRC report is far more rational than that of many AGW alarmists in the past month, crediting M&M’s work, scolding Mann on two matters, and finding that AGW does not depend on the accuracy of the Hockey Stick. It is a subjective question how harsh one might expect the scolding by a committee of climate scientists of two other climates scientists to be, given how few such people there are, and how often they must meet and collaborate.)
cce // August 27, 2007 at 2:26 am |
From the NRC press conference:
*****
“National panel supports ‘98 global warming evidence.”
The National Academy of Sciences, which advises Congress and the government, was then asked to conduct an independent review by the chairman of the House Science Committee, Republican Sherwood L. Boehlert of New York.
“Our conclusion is that this recent period of warming is likely the warmest in the last millennium,” said John M. Wallace, one of the 12 panel members and a professor of atmospheric sciences at the University of Washington.
During a Washington press conference yesterday, other members of the panel said that they had a high level of confidence — 90 percent to 95 percent — that the planet is in its warmest period in 400 years and that the odds are “2 to 1″ that this is probably the warmest period stretching back 1,000 years, as the original study concluded.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/06/23/national_panel_supports_98_global_warming_evidence/
***
That is the same conclusion of the TAR, and the same conclusion of AR4.
Hank Roberts // August 27, 2007 at 3:27 am |
> I am shocked that anyone here would be so
> ignorant as to call me out for my claim on
> feedbacks.
I’m not shocked. I’m patient with bluster.
Once again, can you provide a source in the science for your claim? You wrote:
> 1,300 years of stable pre-industrial
> temperatures are actually significant
> evidence against the strongly positive
> feedbacks they need to realize their
> apocalyptic scenarios
Cite, please, in support of any of the three claims you make there, in science articles?
— 1300 years of stable pre-industrial …
— significant evidence against strongly positive feedbacks
— apocalyptic scenarios
One each will do.
I assume you claim you have papers that refute articles along these lines?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7093/abs/nature04668.html
dhogaza // August 27, 2007 at 3:37 am |
The “scolding” is a fantasy. Pure fantasy.
Quoting from above…
Now, you are on record, above, as claiming their use of “plausible” didn’t even reach the level of “more than 50% likely”.
I told you that they’d made clear that they used the word meaning “more likely than not”, and above you have a press conference with the claim that it means “odds are 2 to 1 (in favor)”.
Your misrepresentation of the NRC report is reprehensible.
dhogaza // August 27, 2007 at 3:42 am |
Read carefully. They credit M&M with forcing scientists to do more work that, essentially, simply confirms earlier findings.
They don’t say M&M’s criticisms are credible (in the sense of weakening the AGW hypothesis), only that they were effective in getting people to do more work looking at the issue.
Now, why was the NRC panel called into being?
Because of political pressure largely due to M&M claims. Since M&M don’t work in the normal scientific circles, but largely confine their efforts to feeding RW disbelief in established science, and since the political pressure that resulted caused the panel to come into being …
Clearly crediting M&M makes sense. Doing so acknowledges their effective political (not scientific) efforts.
DWPittelli // August 27, 2007 at 10:50 am |
Hank Roberts,
I’m not sure from your short-hand 3-point request exactly what you are asking for or what you think my position is.
1) I do not believe that we have had 1300 years of stable pre-industrial temperatures.
2) I am agnostic on the magnitude of net feedbacks.
My position is that if we had had 1300 or 1000 years of stable pre-industrial temperatures (as would be the case if the historical temperature record looked like a hockey stick), that would be evidence against strongly positive feedbacks.
3) I explicitly attributed “apocalyptic scenarios” to “AGW alarmists.” But these alarmists are not limited to sensationalists like Al Gore, but also include Hansen in his recent speeches and public writings. See for example Hansen’s unhinged “Usufruct & the Gorilla” letter, where he threatens “disastrous sea level rise” “extermination of a large fraction of animal and plant species” and that we will “destroy Creation” if we pay attention to the “deceit” of the “court jesters.”)
DWPittelli // August 27, 2007 at 11:20 am |
dhogaza,
Read carefully. I do not accept your formulation that we can equate whether “M&M’s criticisms are credible” with “in the sense of weakening the AGW hypothesis.”
In fact, M&M’s criticisms are credible in the sense that they got climate reconstructionists to fix their statistical methods and obtain less flat temperature reconstructions.
I do not reject the notion of man-caused global warming. Nor, I believe, do M&M.
If a criticism of a climate paper is only credible if it overthrows Anthropogenic Global Warming, then we will likely never have a credible criticism of any climate paper.
But this definition of “credible” makes no sense at all. The two issues (i.e., pre-industrial climate variability, and the existence of industrial AGW) are not, in fact, closely linked. Indeed, as the NRC report makes clear, “the scientific consensus regarding human-induced global warming would not be substantively altered if, for example, the global mean surface temperature 1,000 years ago was found to be as warm as it is today.”
Look at the line graph in the NRC report. The estimates made after M&M are considerably more variable than those of Mann. This is not due to some huge influx of original data between 2003 and 2005, but rather to corrections of the statistical work. You may characterize all this as “essentially, simply confirms earlier findings.” I do not.
DWPittelli // August 27, 2007 at 11:38 am |
dhogaza,
The fact that members of a panel in a press conference said odds were “2 to 1″ does not mean that I even misread their actual report, which said “plausible,” let alone that I misrepresented it in a “reprehensible” fashion.
I also was not capable of time-travel when writing about the word “plausible” before you made your unsourced claim that they meant “more likely than not.”
The report was not written by illiterates; if its authors had agreed at the time on the use of the word “probable” or some other formulation, they would not have used the weaker “plausible.”
Perhaps your intemperate criticisms could be seen as “reprehensible,” but I think they demonstrate the depth of your religious commitment rather than any broader failing of character.
Boris // August 27, 2007 at 12:33 pm |
“1,300 years of stable pre-industrial temperatures are actually significant evidence against the strongly positive feedbacks they need to realize their apocalyptic scenarios”
This does not follow. Stable temperatures could simply mean that forcings were stable, so you cannot conclude anything about climate sensitivity. Of course we have estimates of climate sensitivity from GCMs (2C-4.5C) and observations (about 3C). and preindustrial temps, stable or not, do not magically undo all that research.
Hank Roberts // August 27, 2007 at 3:57 pm |
The Medieval warm period was a local, not a global, temperature anomaly.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/medieval-warm-period-was-just-as-warm.html
“The idea of a global or hemispheric ‘Medieval Warm Period’ that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect.”
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medieval.html
Petro // August 27, 2007 at 6:01 pm |
DWPitelli stated:
“The statement you refer to so mockingly is in fact based on the published line graph in the NRC report, as I have made clear throughout my comments.”
Yeah, but your conclusions differ from the main stream science. To be considered seriously, you should try publish scientifically.
You accept that global warming is worrisome and something should be done to lower CO2. In that respect, you are not a denialist.
I still wonder what is your actual point. If it is that you still consider there is no hockey stick in the proxy record, you have a right to hold such an opinion. However, since that opinion is scientifically vacuous, it tends to discredit your other thoughts as well.
DWPittelli // August 27, 2007 at 9:58 pm |
Hank Roberts : “The idea of a global or hemispheric ‘Medieval Warm Period’ that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect.”
You direct me to a graph from or based on Mann. As I have shown, subsequent reconstructions have shown 0.2C or higher MWP temperature elevations, starting with Moberg 2005. Your reiteration is pointless.
Petro: “your conclusions differ from the main stream science”
1) Yes and no. I don’t think mainstream science is hung up on whether the names “Medieval Warm Period” and “Hockey Stick” are associated exactly with 0.2C or higher, or 0.2C or lower, respectively, MWPs. Instead of being hung up on these names as some sort of indefinable icon of rightness, I have presented specific quantified claims here.
The facts and details I have presented here are not contrary to mainstream science. Indeed, almost all have come from the NRC Report, which is about as mainstream as you can get.
I do concede that the following personal prediction, while not contrary to mainstream science, is not embraced by mainstream climate researchers either:
No one will ever again publish a global temperature history from 1000 to 2000 that is as flat as Mann 2003, because no one will ever, since McIntyre’s critique, screw up the statistics so badly.
Petro, my actual point this whole time has been to refute the claim that McIntyre has done nothing to forward climate science, except for his recent “statistically insignificant” fix to the post-2000 record. It has also been to decry the ridiculous vilification which M&M and others have received.
If anyone, having bothered to read the rest of the comments, has some specific new claim to make, I may reply here again. But the reiterations and vague and semantic claims are getting tiresome.
Petro // August 28, 2007 at 12:48 am |
DWPitelli pointed out:
“My actual point this whole time has been to refute the claim that McIntyre has done nothing to forward climate science, except for his recent “statistically insignificant” fix to the post-2000 record.”
By assessing the arguments you have presented against the arguments other posters have presented, the support for main point remains to be weak. The way how Mr. McIntyre jumps into conclusions from his reasearch is both qualitatively and quantitavely different from the way the scientists typically do. His scientific credibility suffers from that behaviour.
DWPittelli // August 28, 2007 at 2:35 am |
Petro,
Well that was specific. Now that you have convinced me through sheer force of repetition that McIntyre jumps to conclusions and has credibility which suffers, I can forget all the points I made, tied down as they were by actually having details and an argument, and rest peacefully knowing your wisdom.
Petro // August 28, 2007 at 5:55 am |
DWPitelli responded:
“Now that you have convinced me through sheer force of repetition that McIntyre jumps to conclusions and has credibility which suffers, I can forget all the points I made, tied down as they were by actually having details and an argument, and rest peacefully knowing your wisdom.”
I evaluated your arguments and also the counterarguments presented by half a dozen other posters. In that comparison your arguments failed to carry such a weight that you would have convinced me to accept your main point.
I appreciate you have elucidated your line of reasoning, though. However, to get more persuasive arguments you should cite more references. Also, in the best case, carrying out your own scientific research on the topics you are not in agreement with the main stream science would be fabulous.
Mr. Mercy Vetsel // August 28, 2007 at 6:08 am |
How amazingly pathetic. Post after post of meta-debate about people, tobacco companies, sinister motives and conspiracies.
This reminds me of when Feynman went to Brazil and proclaimed “no one in Brazil is learning Physics”.
Well, no one here is doing science. The contrast with climateaudit.org and Coyote Blog is striking. Those guys are actually trying to figure this stuff out for themselves.
I was thrilled to read that the eminent physicist, Freedman Dyson, now calls himself a Climate Heretic. Just another right-wing Exxon-funded hack, I suppose?
Ultimately, you guys can sit wallow in your post-modern identity-group “science” all you want, but lying to the public (or letting Al Gore lie for you) is really going to back-fire this time.
It’s a matter of trust. Smart, respected people are on to sham and the divide is becoming 100% political as people like me who were mildy skeptical but pretty much accepting of the whole line are getting our hands on heretical literature.
Now I’m fired up! I love to hear someone say that Manhattan will be under 10 feet of water. Wrong! Read the IPCC report. Don’t you know what the CONSENSUS says?
I love to hear that the heretics are Exxon-funded hacks. Dyson, Motl? Those Exxon folks sure are crafty! Outspent by 100 to 1 and then can still sway brilliant scientists who haven’t received a penny.
Most of all I love when people (who generally don’t know squat) talk about the consensus. Ahhh, I was born a heretic and AGW hysteria is a big juicy peach of sloppy thinking.
So watch “The Great Global Warming Swindle” and tell me that Hansen and Gore weren’t lying through their teeth in their description of the historical relationship between CO2 and temperature.
Or send an intelligent libertarian or conservative to Coyote blog or to Dyson’s article and see he doesn’t come to the recited consensus with the same detached amuzement of a bright teen coming to Sunday school after absorbing Nietzsche or Tom Paine. Surely, you’re joking…
You guys are losing the “crisis” debate and you deserve it.
-Mercy
[Response: Next time you wish to donate a diatribe, bring some science with you. So far your contribution to the discussion is zero.
Those who are interested in the truth about "The Great Global Warming Swindle," and its producer Martin Durkin's approach to "science," should read this post.
Those who want the best climate-science blog on the net should visit RealClimate.]
Joe blogger // August 28, 2007 at 11:40 am |
Thats Freeman, not Freedman….
Robinson // August 28, 2007 at 11:41 am |
Mr Vetsel makes a lot of valid points. Call it a diatribe if you like, but this is not just a scientific argument, it’s also a political one. It’s typical of people like you to hide behind “science”, refusing to engage in debate on more substantive issues (after all, the consequences of any warming are hopelessly exaggerated).
With respect to RealClimate, it’s an AGW alarmist blog, of course it supports the consensus. Tell us something we don’t already know.
[Response: Hide behind science?
When I pointed out that Martin Durkin (in his "documentary" The Great Global Warming Swindle) actually *faked data* to make his case -- more than once -- was that "hiding behind science"? The dozens, maybe hundreds of times I've shown on this blog that the arguments against the reality of AGW are mistaken, often infantile, was that "hiding behind science"? Is discussing the physical mechanism causing AGW, and the observational evidence for it, "hiding behind science"?
Call it "hiding behind science" if you like. It's typical of too many people to deny the truth that's staring us in the face.]
richard // August 28, 2007 at 1:31 pm |
“intelligent libertarian ”
name one.
Robinson // August 28, 2007 at 2:25 pm |
Well I don’t want to get too involved in yet another blog swarm on AGW, but the science is most certainly not conclusive. I used to believe it was (taken on faith more than study) but do so no longer.
The AGW alarmist claims have risen in volume and the predictions of imminent catastrophe have become more and more absurd so much so that I now believe the entire concept of CO2 based AGW to be idiotic, particularly given the manifest uncertainties in the data, in the reconstructions, in the forcings and in the (unknown) feedbacks.
Of course it doesn’t help that the “science” is not reproducible, the models are simplistic (hardly useful for prediction) and that the debate is so politicized.
In the end I would say that if scientists are going to make extraordinary claims, I feel they should have extraordinary evidence. In the absence of such evidence, I’ll remain just as skeptical as I was when we were all going to perish in a new ice age (circa 1970).
There are only so many Armageddons you can live through before you start to wonder what all the fuss is about. In the mean-time there are probably a dozen or so environmental problems the world is facing not related to CO2 that are far more pressing.
[Response: The science is indeed conclusive. I have to wonder just how well you're aware of it.
And I wonder why you repeat that tired old canard about scientists warning that we'll "perish in a new ice age" in the 1970s. That's a favorite bit of denialist misinformation, and a total mischaracterization of the state of science in the 1970s; it's rooted not in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, but in a truly alarmist article from Newsweek.
So I'll tell you what I told Mercy -- if you want to contribute another diatribe, bring some science with you. Your net contribution so far: zero.]
henry // August 28, 2007 at 2:27 pm |
“DWPittelli // Aug 23rd 2007 at 1:37 am
dhogaza: Nor did McIntyre “reserve [sic] engineer temp ‘corrections’ and find a 0.15C change…” McIntyre noticed something strange in the data, pointed out to NASA. NASA then figured out the source of the strangeness and computed the change. McIntyre smelled smokie. NASA put out the fire.
dhogaza’s characterization is tendentious.
McIntyre was reverse-engineering the temp corrections when the errors in the data became obvious to him, as did their cause.”
The ony reason that anyone would have to “reverse engineer” the data, is because THE ORIGINAL DATA IS NOT AVAILABLE.
Has Hansen et al given ANYONE, real scientist or not, the data he used to prove the corrections to the temp data?
Robinson // August 28, 2007 at 2:58 pm |
I don’t think the science is conclusive, no. With respect to “peer review” (a rather mystical faith in which most AGW proponents seem to have), I read an interesting document:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/StupakResponse.pdf
Of course in your haste to answer every single objection with almost religious zeal, I’m sure you will trash his reputation too, or convince me that it isn’t important in any case.
Petro // August 28, 2007 at 4:51 pm |
Robinson said:
“I don’t think the science is conclusive, no. ”
Who cares what you think? Please educate yourself in science not in faith before taking a stance toward scientific facts.
tamino // August 28, 2007 at 5:05 pm |
I see the denialists have come out in force.
They refer me to 44 pages by Wexman, who claims that paleoclimatology is an “inner circle” which tends to reinforce the concensus view, blind to alternatives. I’m not convinced. They also seem to think that *if* the “hockey stick” were to be debunked, it would destroy the case for AGW.
Temperatures are rising. The sustained rate of increase is 20 times faster than the rate during a reasonably rapid transition from full-glacial to interglacial conditions. This is not just indicated by the surface temperature record from thermometers, we get the same trend from satellite measurements. Ocean heat content has increased. The tropopause has increased its altitude, and the stratosphere is cooling (predictions of AGW which have been observed). Globally, glaciers are disappearing at an alarming rate (there’s that word “alarming” for you). Global snow cover has declined. Sea level is increasing. Species habitats are migrating northward. The arctic has experienced (this year) the lowest sea-ice coverage *ever*. An ice shelf the size of Rhode Island, which had been in place for at least 8000 years, disintegrated a few years ago. Heat waves are not only more frequent, they last longer. The number and severity of tropical cyclones has increased. The signs are *everywhere*.
Then there are those pesky “laws of physics.” Carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and CFCs actually *do* absorb infrared radiation. Absorption of infrared by atmospheric gases really *does* warm the climate. I have yet to hear even one denialist suggest a plausible mechanism by which greenhouse gases could possibly *not* warm the planet. Meanwhile, atmospheric concentrations of CO2 are 35% greater than pre-industrial levels, methane is more than double, CFCs weren’t in the atmosphere at all until introduced by human activity. In fact, CO2 concentration is higher than it has been in *at least* 600,000 years, and more likely 20 million years.
There are none so blind as those who *will* not see. No matter what.
Robinson // August 28, 2007 at 5:36 pm |
Good lord tamino, do you seriously put all those changes down to an increase in CO2 from 287ppm to 386ppm over a period of 40 years? If any proof were needed that AGW alarmists are in la-la land, this has got to be it.
Zoom the temperature graph outwards and take a look at natural variance over longer timescales. Amazing what you see isn’t it?
As for your “pesky laws of physics”, it’s interesting to note that CO2 does not have an umlimited capacity to absorb radiation. Pesky concepts like clouds and water vapour also complicate your simplistic assumptions – things climatologists know little about.
[Response: Melting glaciers, disappearing polar ice cap, species migration, heat waves, etc. -- sounds like it's getting hot in here. Our children will pay a *heavy price* for our folly.
Those who want a longer-time view of global temperature can look here and here.
Those interested in just one of the faults behind the "CO2 has limited capacity" argument can read this post.
This blog exists to discuss climate *science*. Get with the program, or go elsewhere.]
Hank Roberts // August 28, 2007 at 6:45 pm |
> Medieval warm period
> Moberg
——- begin excerpt ——-
This paper reviews different contributions and evaluates the impact of different methods and different data collections used. Section 2 discusses recent contributions, which have developed a range of new methods to address aspects of the problem. Section 3 5
discusses the technique used by MBH1998/9 in more detail in the context of criticism by McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) (hereafter MM2003). Section 4 presents some new results using data collections from 5 recent studies. Appendices provide information on the regression techniques and statistical tests used.
…..
Crowley and Lowery (2000) [CL2000] discuss the evidence for a global MWP, which they interpret as a period of unusual warmth in the 11th century. All the reconstructions of the 11th century temperature shown in Fig. 1 estimate it to have been warmer than most of the past millennium. However, a question of more practical importance is not whether it was warmer than the 12th to 19th centuries, which is generally 20 accepted, but whether it was a period of comparable warmth to the late 20th century…. CL2000 revisit the question using 15 proxy records (7 annually resolved, 3 with decadal scale variability and 5 with only centennial temporal resolution). Low-resolution (decadal and centennial) series were not used in the studies cited above, and 3 of the high-resolution series 25 used by CL2000 are also new. They draw attention to the spatial localization of the MWP in their proxy series: it is strong in North America, North Atlantic and Western Europe, but not clearly present elsewhere.
Periods of unusual warmth do occur in other regions, but these are short and asynchronous. Their estimate of northern hemispheric temperature over the past millennium (see Fig. 1) is close to that of MBH1999. They conclude that the occurrence of decades of temperatures similar to those of the late 20th century cannot be unequivocally ruled 5 out, but that there is, on the other hand, no evidence to support the claims that such an extended period of large-scale warmth occurred…..
—— end excerpt—-
See the full paper for far more information.
http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/cp/cpd/2/1001/cpd-2-1001.pdf
George // August 28, 2007 at 7:45 pm |
Robinson said: “The AGW alarmist claims have risen in volume and the predictions of imminent catastrophe have become more and more absurd so much so that I now believe the entire concept of CO2 based AGW to be idiotic… ”
Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain to me why one’s acceptance/rejection of the science should depend upon the volume level of “AGW alarmist claims” and upon their “predictions of imminent catastrophe” (or at least why yours apparently does)
It seems to me that CO2 either does or does not absorb infrared radiation, that it is or is not causing the earth’s surface temperature to increase by a certain amount, that ice sheets are or are not melting at a certain rate — and all the rest.
Or perhaps the science is determined by the rhetoric? The more extreme the claims made by non-scientists, the less likely the science?
Is that how it works?
If that is the case, perhaps we should all thank the alarmists. :)
Then again, you did say you “now believe the entire concept of CO2 based AGW to be idiotic”.
Perhaps you still accept methane-based AGW? Or CFC-based AGW? Free-based?
John Mashey // August 28, 2007 at 8:44 pm |
Tamino: blood pressure, and remember, “Please don’t feed the trolls”.
It will be wonderful if someone does blogging software that does the equivalent of the KILLFILES we had years ago for USENET newsgroups so I can stop simulating that effect.
re: Wegman
McIntyre & Barton managed to engineer an unfortunate collision between paleoclimatoligists and distinguished statisticians, but some people manage to forget Wegman’s bottom line, which was:
‘As we said in our report, “In a real sense the paleoclimate results of MBH98/99 are essentially irrelevant to the consensus on climate change. The instrumented temperature record clearly indicates an increase in temperature.” We certainly agree that modern global warming is real. We have never disputed this point. We think it is time to put the “hockey stick” controversy behind us and move on.”
energycommerce.house.gov/reparchives/108/Hearings/07272006hearing2001/Wegman.pdf
That’s really pretty clear English., but some people will never move on.
====
When I saw DWP ask for some examples of people who took money from tobacco/fossil fuels companies [OK], gave him Singer & Seitz & Milloy, and was told the first two didn’t count because they were old …I had a feeling it would go downhill from there, and it did, as M&M and Hansen got introduced into a discussion that wasn’t about them and we weren’t discussing [virtual KILLFILE].
This thread, started as a nice exploratory data analysis of the sort that would have pleased John Tukey, has become almost completely useless, sigh. I have learned a few more names for my virtual KILLFILE.
cce // August 28, 2007 at 10:40 pm |
A 35% increase in CO2 levels in 100 years is significant no matter how anyone tries to spin it. N20 is like 20% higher, and Methane is double.
Please, “zoom out and look at the temperature changes over longer time periods.” I double dog dare anyone. What you are seeing is primarily the effect of Milankovich cycles that require tens of thousands of years. Anyone who believes that this is evidence against AGW truly is in La-La land.
DWPittelli // August 29, 2007 at 12:30 am |
John Mashey, Tamino
I apologize to Tamino et al if I am responsible for bringing a few idiots here, as I suspect is true. I thought I owed it to tell McIntyre via comment that I had used his name here, in case I had written anything he didn’t want to be associated with, and in case he cared enough to object.
I think that if JM’s comment about AGW deniers in the pay of corporate interests is to have a point, no, the number and type of examples he provided do not show it. You can’t begin to refute an argument because some of its practitioners can be shown to be biased by personal and business ties, especially if they are minor and peripheral to any scientific argument.
An actual skeptical scientist who has had an effect on the data, and the one clearly in the news today, is McIntyre. Of course it is relevant to ask if the current defensive attacks on corrupt “jesters,” triggered as they were by him, would include such as him.
My first post did cover the initial graph manipulation, and why it is meaningless. The presence of annual noise doesn’t allow you to lift a half-century of data upward when drawing a trend line.
[Response: You're probably aware that we don't see eye-to-eye on everything. But all your comments, while sometimes contentious, have been on topic and focused on the science. And you have certainly spurred much discussion.
As for idiots (we've had a few, and I'm sure there'll be more), it's my job to regulate that.]
Hank Roberts // August 29, 2007 at 1:01 am |
Got Firefox? Search: +greasemonkey +killfile
EliRabett // August 29, 2007 at 1:51 am |
To repeat So one needs another strategy: The Time Out Box TM
When you get someone whose mission in life is provocation, send them to the Time Out box. Put a notice on the front page: The following children are sitting in the Real Climate Time Out Box: Robinson. The box would have links to their comments showing why they were sent there. If Robinson decides that there is no future in avoiding the science after being asked to provide some evidence, etc. well, he has the keys to the box in his own hand.
John Mashey // August 29, 2007 at 3:45 am |
Hank: yes, I have that on one of my machines. maybe the way I wrote it didn’t parse the way I meant it:
“It will be wonderful if someone does blogging software that does the equivalent of the (KILLFILES we had years ago for USENET newsgroups) so I can stop simulating that effect (on blogs).”
The issue is that, unlike Google Groups, the blogoverse is much bigger and handles things in various different ways. I’ve been following http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107, which gives me the sense that this isn’t quite there yet for blogs in any general way, and seeing tales of malicious scripts doesn’t help. If you know a general solution, it would be nice.
Hank Roberts // August 29, 2007 at 5:35 am |
No global answer; I miss Usenet.
Robinson // August 29, 2007 at 10:07 am |
“When you get someone whose mission in life is provocation, send them to the Time Out box. Put a notice on the front page: The following children are sitting in the Real Climate Time Out Box: Robinson. The box would have links to their comments showing why they were sent there. If Robinson decides that there is no future in avoiding the science”.
The data this article is about comes from GISS. The accuracy of GISS data is questionable. The conclusions may be valid if the data is reliable. As we are discovering that more and more of this data is unreliable, the conclusions are useless.
guthrie // August 29, 2007 at 3:34 pm |
AS has been explained many times before, this is not the case, Robinson. PLease read this and other threads to educate yourself.
george // August 29, 2007 at 5:35 pm |
“I thought I owed it to tell McIntyre via comment that I had used his name here, in case I had written anything he didn’t want to be associated with, and in case he cared enough to object.”
If that’s the case, perhaps asking McIntyre before posting here might be a good thing to do next time. or better yet, let McIntyre represent his won views and make his own arguments here.
You might also read John Mashey’s comment more carefully. He quoted Wegman as saying that ““In a real sense the paleoclimate results of MBH98/99 are essentially irrelevant to the consensus on climate change.”, which is basically the same as what the NRC quote I provided above said:
“Surface temperature reconstructions for periods
prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple
lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that
climatic warming is occurring in response to human
activities, and they are not the primary evidence.”
I’d have to say that Mashey’s comment about “Kill files” seems to have been directed at the entire discussion about the hockey stick above (your comments and mine included).
Petro // August 29, 2007 at 8:28 pm |
Tamino,
Have you ever been skeptic to global warming? I have impression while reading your posts you have studied this topic several years and also spent considerable time to find correlation between sun and the global temperatures, without any success. This sort of exercises are typically carried out by climate skeptics.
My point is that if you have experienced transition from skeptic to global warming proponent, it would be extremely interesting to hear, how this happened and what were the evidence which convinced you. Some of the true skeptics reading your blog might learn from your line of reasoning.
I formed my own stance for global warming in the mid-eighties, when I learned how carbon dioxide in the atmosphere absorbs heat and that CO2 levels are raising according to Keeling curve.
[Response: Until about 2 years ago, I didn't pay much attention to the topic. I suspected AGW was real, but wouldn't have bet any money on it (my wife calls me the world's most skeptical skeptic), and I had no idea what the probabilities or the scientific prognoses were.
Then I learned of a paper by a "colleague of a colleague" claiming to refute the idea that earth was warmer in the past (Soon & Baliunas). This piqued my interest, so I read the paper. It's based on data "analysis," and that's my specialty. It's probably the most heinous misapplication of analysis methodology I've seen in the scientific literature. This piqued my interest even further, so I started investigating the topic in detail; I've put a lot of study into it over the last two years. I'm not a climate scientist, but I'm a mathematician with a pretty strong background in physics and astronomy.
As a result, I'm convinced that global is really happening, that it's caused by human activity, and that it's overwhelmingly likely to be very very bad.]
DWPittelli // August 30, 2007 at 12:15 am |
george,
Most of us have quoted other people’s work here, generally without informing them. McIntyre was invoked here by both sides until it got to a level where I thought it possible that he would wish to be informed. I do not accept your request that I inform any scientist before I bring up his name, and I doubt anyone else would either.
My reading comprehension is as good as anyone’s. Yours is not. You will note that I agree with Wegman’s assessment, as does, I am led to believe by his similar written statements, McIntyre, among others.
Climate alarmists display the essentially religious and fundamentalist nature of their beliefs when they regularly assume that everyone who is critical of any of their work must be an apostate — a denier of the existence of AGW.
John Mashey // August 30, 2007 at 12:53 am |
Petro: as another data point, here’s another perspective, whioch tooki me mroe work than tamino.
I started somewhat skeptical in 2001, in some cases irritated by true-alarmist items I’d encountered, and in general wanting to give the skeptical view every chance. A simple approach is: list the key evidence on some hypothesis in two columns on a piece of paper, pro and con, and then study and watch for new data. Go buy a range of books to see differing opinions. Watch people’s opinions to see how they change with new data. Add/delete new pro/con items as they appear.
In this case, my early con list (2002) included:
- Why the temperature dip earlier in the century?
- Why do the satellites disagree with the groundstations? How good are the groundstations?
- Maybe it’s the Sun?
versus a mass of consensus-pro things like: Greenhouse effect is real, species motion is real, glaciers are melting, and I personally know smart NAS members and climate scientists who are very good, and if one knows little, betting on the scientific consensus is usually better than the reverse.
All this produces not a yes/no position, but a “most evidence says pro, but there are annoying con discrepancies and issues (list).”
If, over time, discrepancies grow, and there are better hypotheses, then it may well be consensus gets overturned, as in continental drift or ulcers. It is interesting to watch Ruddiman’s hypotheses in this way, as evidence appears, both pro and con, and I admire his discussion of the way science works.
If discrepancies disappear because one learns more [aerosols], or because new data arrives that confirms the consensus or because wrong data gets fixed in major ways [satellites], then the consensus position is strengthened, meaning it is viewed as better approximation to reality.
Any scientific skeptic (in the classic sense) should be able to produce a terse list of reasons to doubt, whose resolution would strongly lessen their doubt.
It’s different if the list is essentially never-ending, and every time one objection gets knocked off, another becomes *the* reason to doubt. It takes a while to figure out who is doing this, because a snapshot may look reasonable, but if the bottom line stays the same, while the reasons change underneath, then it’s a hint. For instance, compare Fred Singer’s 1999 book with his 2007 one. Bottom line is the same, “under no circumstances limit CO2 emissions”, but the 2007 version has even more questionable claims than the 1999 one. At least, in 1999, the satellite issue was actually legitimate.
These days, it is much easier to answer the plausible scientific-objection lists, just by pointing at relevant websites.
guthrie // August 30, 2007 at 10:33 am |
DW- you will always recieve a better reception somewhere when you suitably qualify your statements.
Saying
“Climate alarmists display the essentially religious and fundamentalist nature of their beliefs when they regularly assume that everyone who is critical of any of their work must be an apostate — a denier of the existence of AGW.”
without exempting the current company or specifying some organisation you think is doing a really bad job is somewhat rude, since it makes it look like you are smearing everyone who disagrees with you, with the labels.
John Cross // August 30, 2007 at 11:54 am |
For what its worth, another data point. I started out in about 2000 as a somewhat skeptic. I say somewhat because when I thought about the issue (which was not much I confess) I thought it was probably over blown with a grain of truth inside it.
However I wanted to be sure of my stand so I started to do some digging and looking around. I encountered a number of speculations and ideas which would seem to support the idea that it is not real / minor. For example one of the first things I looked at was a paper by Soon that was part of the OISM petition project. I thought that a petition with 20,000 scientists must have some good points. However it was a very poorly constructed argument (not as bad as the S&B one Tamino referred to above, but pretty bad). For example I found that a number of the references did not say what the authors claim. Then it was UHI’s and I thought, here is a good point until I looked into it a bit more. Then it was humans are not producing the CO2 (that one took about a day of research to figure out), then it was CO2 is saturated, the sun is warming, etc.
Now I am a pretty smart guy so I only need to be hit in the head about 7 times before I start to think that my initial view might be wrong.
The big point for me was the satellite issue since this is probably closer to my own background than other topics I had looked at. So I took some time and looked at the literature on it, read the papers, crunched some numbers. I was also impressed at how the NAS called a special group to look at the issue since this is how real doubt is dealt with (by trying to reconcile the two points). Also, Fu’s published his work which seemed to make sense to me. Now for the most part, the satellites agree with surface warming.
So in my experience John Mashey hit the nail on the head. Over the time I have been looking at the topic, the issues that support the position that GW is not real/ minor have decreased in strength, where as the issues that support the idea that GW is a problem have increased.
Anyway, another skeptic’s journey for what its worth.
John
Petro // August 30, 2007 at 1:59 pm |
Thank you for your responses, Tamino, John M. and John C.! It seems to be case that more you read scientific articles and summaries about the subject of the global climate change, the more evidence for warming will be gathered. It still take some time (months and years) to become convinced fully.
Spotting decreapancies in the texts of denialists seems to be also an effective way to start figuring things out.
Listing arguments pro and con for each statement is also an illustrative way to demonstrate what main stream science thinks about the subject. I wonder if there are any web site, which show such comparision with references in simple manner?
And one more thing: it is essential to accept that scientific evidence gives you more reliable view on the world than strongly held opinions. Kudos to all of you!
DWPittelli // August 30, 2007 at 2:00 pm |
guthrie,
Point taken. I should have made myself clearer.
1) I was directing that comment, and referring to, george throughout my post.
2) I don’t call everyone who thinks climate change is potentially serious, and worthy of remediation efforts, a climate alarmist. (Indeed, I think climate change is potentially serious, and that by a reasonable implementation of the precautionary principle, it is probably a good idea for mankind to totally eliminate the use of coal.) Alarmism goes beyond this, to either making unfounded claims (e.g., 100 foot sea level rises in 2100) or to acting as if their “truth” requires vilification of anyone voicing skepticism of any aspect of climate science as voice by NASA, NOAA or IPCC establishments.
3) I don’t claim that even all climate alarmists act in that fashion (i.e., vilifying all skepticism as based on denial of any AGW), but that those who do, are displaying the fundamentally religious nature of their beliefs.
Julian Flood // September 8, 2007 at 4:25 am |
quote Then there are those pesky “laws of physics.” Carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and CFCs actually *do* absorb infrared radiation. Absorption of infrared by atmospheric gases really *does* warm the climate. unquote.
“In the May 6, 2005, issue of the journal Science, the CERES Science Team reported Earth’s shortwave albedo has been steadily declining since the Terra CERES instrument began making the measurement in February 2000. Over the 4-year span (2000 through 2004), the CERES instrument measured an albedo decrease of 0.0027, which equals 0.9 watt of energy per square meter retained in the Earth system. The CERES Team is currently unsure what caused this decline in albedo.”
I have a graph from somewhere showing an albedo drop equivalent to a forcing of 7 watts/m^2 — I can’t find it on line, but I think it’s from Palle/. CO2 forcing for the 20th century is around 2 or 3 W/m^2. But it’s on the way up again — what is going on? I don’t know. Which is causing GW? I don’t know.
I started out as an accepter of what seemed to be the science. However, I have a strawman theory which I use to calibrate how others measure up: it has led me to question Hadcrut3 (the Folland and Parker bucket adjustment does not give a clean temperature rise at the beginning of WWII); the cloud feedbacks ( level of understanding not just poor but abysmal); the consensus (four legs good, two legs bad being chanted until the opposite view is drowned out — that’s not scientific debate, that’s mob-rule); the smoking gun of carbon isotope ratios (the ability of phytoplankton to switch to C3 metabolism was not even known when the ’science was settled’); the argument that since we know the carbon cycle accurately we know that half of anthropogenic CO2 is going into the atmosphere (we apparently know the cycle so well that one of the terms — export into long-term deep water storage — is known to plus or minus 60 Gt!); the effects of global warming on animal populations (the supposed heat-death of batrachians which I found to be based on a very simplistic view of frog behaviour and plague dynamics).
I can understand the urge for governments to ride the anthropic CO2 horse — the acceptance of a major fission power programme depends on it — but I’d rather that case were argued on its merits. I can understand the urge for the scientists involved to guard their data, but this is poor science which degrades their case — in Dr Jones case so much that I am now convinced that the Hadcrut series is flawed. I cannot understand a mindset which feels that appeal to authority and shouting down is an appropriate way to conduct the debate.
Mrs Flood, not noted for taking an interest in these subjects, saw a news item about drought or floods or somesuch last week. ‘If GW causes floods and drought, and makes the weather colder and hotter, how can you tell it’s happening?’ she asked. Quite.
Bottom line: albedo dropped (satellite measurement) by the equivalent of 0.9 W/^m from 2000 – 2004. That’s a third of the AGW effect in four years! Why? We don’t know. Oh, goody, let’s do some more research. That’s science, that’s the pleasure of finding things out. Chanting ‘the science is settled’, accusing anyone who questions the consensus as an oil company shill, is no pleasure at all. It may even be counterproductive — it was in my case.
JF
My strawman theory (which enables me to state emphatically that everyone else is wrong — something I like in a theory) is that oil sheen and surfactant pollution are changing albedo.
Julian Flood // September 8, 2007 at 4:32 am |
Correction — make that ’switch to C4 metabolism’
Greg // September 21, 2007 at 7:12 pm |
I am a little late for the party. I would be interested in what filter coefficients were used.