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	<title>Comments on: Latest Trends in CO2</title>
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	<description>Science, Politics, Life, the Universe, and Everything</description>
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		<title>By: Verne Bauman</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2725</link>
		<dc:creator>Verne Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2725</guid>
		<description>I look at global warming issues as sort of a hobby for me. I guess I am a mouse in the mob. I came up with the graph shown under Update, Update.. a few months ago, although arrived at in a much more mundane way. I sent it off to Mauna Loa, CRU, and a couple of professors for comment looking for a way to go with it. 

I was struck by the correlation to the temperature curves. To think you could be measuring CO2 on a mountain in Hawaii and come up with global temperature about as good as the satellites or ground stations was unexpected to me. I was interested in the chicken or egg problem of which comes first, temperature or CO2. 

I did something else in this “analysis.”  I simply added up the fossil fuel CO2 emissions and added the CO2 contributions from land use to get a curve of anthropogenic CO2.  I then divided, year by year, the atmospheric CO2 (from 1850 to 2006) by the anthropogenic CO2. I think Dr. Keeling did this and came up with about 55% as a constant. A constant rate of residual CO2, in view of an increasing CO2 load, always fascinated me. My chart shows 40% to 1877, a jump up to 70% and steady decline to 1899, constant 50% to 1938, and a drop to 40% by 1952, and then flat to 2006. 

I think these two curves are trying to tell me they are related by blood, not marriage. 

My bias is that what global warming trends there are are probably not caused by CO2 changes. I think my position is reasonable as the burden is on the “sky is falling” position to be convincing. I, for one, am not convinced. In knowing this, I try to be extra careful in judging the other side’s arguments and try to keep my head above the sand.

Any ideas on the usefulness of these curves or how they are related?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I look at global warming issues as sort of a hobby for me. I guess I am a mouse in the mob. I came up with the graph shown under Update, Update.. a few months ago, although arrived at in a much more mundane way. I sent it off to Mauna Loa, CRU, and a couple of professors for comment looking for a way to go with it. </p>
<p>I was struck by the correlation to the temperature curves. To think you could be measuring CO2 on a mountain in Hawaii and come up with global temperature about as good as the satellites or ground stations was unexpected to me. I was interested in the chicken or egg problem of which comes first, temperature or CO2. </p>
<p>I did something else in this “analysis.”  I simply added up the fossil fuel CO2 emissions and added the CO2 contributions from land use to get a curve of anthropogenic CO2.  I then divided, year by year, the atmospheric CO2 (from 1850 to 2006) by the anthropogenic CO2. I think Dr. Keeling did this and came up with about 55% as a constant. A constant rate of residual CO2, in view of an increasing CO2 load, always fascinated me. My chart shows 40% to 1877, a jump up to 70% and steady decline to 1899, constant 50% to 1938, and a drop to 40% by 1952, and then flat to 2006. </p>
<p>I think these two curves are trying to tell me they are related by blood, not marriage. </p>
<p>My bias is that what global warming trends there are are probably not caused by CO2 changes. I think my position is reasonable as the burden is on the “sky is falling” position to be convincing. I, for one, am not convinced. In knowing this, I try to be extra careful in judging the other side’s arguments and try to keep my head above the sand.</p>
<p>Any ideas on the usefulness of these curves or how they are related?</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2477</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2477</guid>
		<description>About halfway between Hawaii and the South Pole (and that&#039;s a guess, don&#039;t hold me to it), NZ&#039;s been making measurements of CO2 concentrations since 1971. The early part of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.niwascience.co.nz/rc/prog/greenhouse/info/1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;graph&lt;/a&gt; shows clear seasonal cycling, but since about 1997/8 this has been greatly reduced. The gas man at NIWA reckons this is real, not an artefact, and has something to do with ENSO. On the other hand, the recent &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1136188&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Le Quéré et al&lt;/a&gt; paper in Science suggests that the Southern Ocean sink may be becoming saturated. So - are emissions now overwhelming the sinks?

[&lt;i&gt;Response: Good question.  The abstract of the Le Quere paper states that the cause of the reduction in CO2 uptake by the southern oceans is a human-induced change in wind patterns (I would presume that is a change in the Antarctic vortex, caused by ozone depletion) rather than CO2 saturation.  Also, their stated reduction in CO2 uptake (0.08 petagrams/yr/decade) is not huge (but is certainly meaningful!).

The global CO2 contration has not shown statistically significant acceleration since about mid-2000, so I&#039;m not ready to say it&#039;s definite.  But it&#039;s possible, and given the trends not only in wind patterns but in temperature as well, it seems highly likely that the southern oceans will saturate in the near future.&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About halfway between Hawaii and the South Pole (and that&#8217;s a guess, don&#8217;t hold me to it), NZ&#8217;s been making measurements of CO2 concentrations since 1971. The early part of the <a href="http://www.niwascience.co.nz/rc/prog/greenhouse/info/1" rel="nofollow">graph</a> shows clear seasonal cycling, but since about 1997/8 this has been greatly reduced. The gas man at NIWA reckons this is real, not an artefact, and has something to do with ENSO. On the other hand, the recent <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1136188" rel="nofollow">Le Quéré et al</a> paper in Science suggests that the Southern Ocean sink may be becoming saturated. So &#8211; are emissions now overwhelming the sinks?</p>
<p>[<i>Response: Good question.  The abstract of the Le Quere paper states that the cause of the reduction in CO2 uptake by the southern oceans is a human-induced change in wind patterns (I would presume that is a change in the Antarctic vortex, caused by ozone depletion) rather than CO2 saturation.  Also, their stated reduction in CO2 uptake (0.08 petagrams/yr/decade) is not huge (but is certainly meaningful!).</p>
<p>The global CO2 contration has not shown statistically significant acceleration since about mid-2000, so I'm not ready to say it's definite.  But it's possible, and given the trends not only in wind patterns but in temperature as well, it seems highly likely that the southern oceans will saturate in the near future.</i>]</p>
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		<title>By: the Grit</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2448</link>
		<dc:creator>the Grit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2448</guid>
		<description>Hi Reasic,

Considering that we have had 8 years of global cooling, 1998 being the hottest year on record, I&#039;m not sure why it matters?  Really, that does shoot down the CO2 causes Global Warming theory doesn&#039;t it?

the Grit

[&lt;i&gt;Response: We have most definitely *not* had 8 years of global cooling.  We had global cooling 1998 to 1999, because of the end of the extremely strong 1997-1998 el Nino.  Trend analysis shows that since 1999, global temperature has risen at a rate of 3.8 +/- 1.7 deg.C/century (and yes, that result is statistically significant).

Also, 1998 was the hottest year on record according to HadCRU, but according to GISS, the hottest year was 2005.  According to either, the difference between 1998 and 2005 is not statistically significant.&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Reasic,</p>
<p>Considering that we have had 8 years of global cooling, 1998 being the hottest year on record, I&#8217;m not sure why it matters?  Really, that does shoot down the CO2 causes Global Warming theory doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>the Grit</p>
<p>[<i>Response: We have most definitely *not* had 8 years of global cooling.  We had global cooling 1998 to 1999, because of the end of the extremely strong 1997-1998 el Nino.  Trend analysis shows that since 1999, global temperature has risen at a rate of 3.8 +/- 1.7 deg.C/century (and yes, that result is statistically significant).</p>
<p>Also, 1998 was the hottest year on record according to HadCRU, but according to GISS, the hottest year was 2005.  According to either, the difference between 1998 and 2005 is not statistically significant.</i>]</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2446</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2446</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://lh3.google.com/image/EliRabett/RnybPN060ZI/AAAAAAAAAOk/5bJnRrnu-S8/CO2July.JPG&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This CO2 graphic&lt;/a&gt; that Eli rabett posted makes me wonder just how much of the year to year variation (what you show as the first anomaly) might not be due to the prevailing wind patterns for the months (or possibly year0r more) preceding the taking of the measurement.

I would venture to say that the CO2 level measured at a place like mauna loa is almost certainly affected by winds (not only local ones but worldwide, since these determine overall mixing) and is always measuring a level that is indicative of emissions that occurred several months (if not a year or more) in the past.

Rather than evenly mixing the emissions, certain persistent wind patterns might actually tend to concentrate CO2 emissions over certain areas.

This may account for at least part of the increase during El nino.

CO2 may be &quot;fairly well-mixed&quot;, as some say,  but the mixing takes some time and new emissions are always being added to the mix which are not registered immediately, at any rate.

[&lt;i&gt;Response: Interesting thought.  I&#039;d suggest that most of the &quot;1st residuals&quot; are global rather than local to Mauna Loa, because the residuals from Mauna Loa and South Pole station match each other very closely.  They do deviate, but not by more than 1 ppmv, and usually less than that.&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://lh3.google.com/image/EliRabett/RnybPN060ZI/AAAAAAAAAOk/5bJnRrnu-S8/CO2July.JPG" rel="nofollow">This CO2 graphic</a> that Eli rabett posted makes me wonder just how much of the year to year variation (what you show as the first anomaly) might not be due to the prevailing wind patterns for the months (or possibly year0r more) preceding the taking of the measurement.</p>
<p>I would venture to say that the CO2 level measured at a place like mauna loa is almost certainly affected by winds (not only local ones but worldwide, since these determine overall mixing) and is always measuring a level that is indicative of emissions that occurred several months (if not a year or more) in the past.</p>
<p>Rather than evenly mixing the emissions, certain persistent wind patterns might actually tend to concentrate CO2 emissions over certain areas.</p>
<p>This may account for at least part of the increase during El nino.</p>
<p>CO2 may be &#8220;fairly well-mixed&#8221;, as some say,  but the mixing takes some time and new emissions are always being added to the mix which are not registered immediately, at any rate.</p>
<p>[<i>Response: Interesting thought.  I'd suggest that most of the "1st residuals" are global rather than local to Mauna Loa, because the residuals from Mauna Loa and South Pole station match each other very closely.  They do deviate, but not by more than 1 ppmv, and usually less than that.</i>]</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2391</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2391</guid>
		<description>&quot;correlation between lower troposphere temperature and CO2 growth rate since 2000 is not because lower troposphere temperature causes an increase in CO2 growth rate, but because they share a common root cause.&quot;

(Pacific) Ocean surface temperature?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;correlation between lower troposphere temperature and CO2 growth rate since 2000 is not because lower troposphere temperature causes an increase in CO2 growth rate, but because they share a common root cause.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Pacific) Ocean surface temperature?</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2382</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2382</guid>
		<description>The departure from a linear trend may not look like much, but it makes a big difference if you&#039;re trying to peer into the murky future.

Projecting a linear trend based on the 1975-2005 data suggests that we won&#039;t reach 450 ppmv until after 2050.  Projecting a 2nd-order polynomial trend based on the same period suggests that we&#039;ll reach that level before 2040.  

When thinking about mitigation, that extra decade makes a big difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The departure from a linear trend may not look like much, but it makes a big difference if you&#8217;re trying to peer into the murky future.</p>
<p>Projecting a linear trend based on the 1975-2005 data suggests that we won&#8217;t reach 450 ppmv until after 2050.  Projecting a 2nd-order polynomial trend based on the same period suggests that we&#8217;ll reach that level before 2040.  </p>
<p>When thinking about mitigation, that extra decade makes a big difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hadfield</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2377</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hadfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2377</guid>
		<description>The thing that strikes me is that the deviations from the annual+linear fit really aren&#039;t that large. The annual+linear pattern shows an increase of a little more than 40 ppmv between 1975 and 2005; the anomalies from this vary between about -2 (early 1990s) and +3 (now). It seems to me the big story here is the (almost) steady increase, not the deviations from it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that strikes me is that the deviations from the annual+linear fit really aren&#8217;t that large. The annual+linear pattern shows an increase of a little more than 40 ppmv between 1975 and 2005; the anomalies from this vary between about -2 (early 1990s) and +3 (now). It seems to me the big story here is the (almost) steady increase, not the deviations from it.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Erren</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2371</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Erren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2371</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the 3 rate model, are you aware that CO2 fluctuations in Mauna Loa have a ver good correlation with lower troposphere temperature. Therefore IMHO the likely cause is a simple temperature modulation of the sink. The temperature dependency is not visible on the south pole.

graph:
http://home.casema.nl/errenwijlens/co2/co2lt_en.gif

[&lt;i&gt;Response: The 3-rate model is a mathematical model for CO2 since 1997.  It involves no assumptions or models relating to the physical cause of CO2 changes; it&#039;s just an approximation to the numerical signal.

The correlation of CO2 growth rate with MSU (UAH) lower troposphere temperature is indeed very strong.  But much of the correlation is due to the fact that they both show such strong response to the el Nino of 1997-1998 and the Pinatubo explosion of 1992.  Also, they will necessarily show correlation simply due to the fact that they are both trending in the same direction (both are increasing).  If you remove the trend from each time series, and examine the data from 2000 to the present (after the el Nino and Mt. Pinatubo), then the very strong correlation becomes very weak; less than 10% of the variance of one series can be explained by the other.

And correlation is not causation; it seems to me far more likely that the (weak) correlation between lower troposphere temperature and CO2 growth rate since 2000 is not because lower troposphere temperature causes an increase in CO2 growth rate, but because they share a common root cause.&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand the 3 rate model, are you aware that CO2 fluctuations in Mauna Loa have a ver good correlation with lower troposphere temperature. Therefore IMHO the likely cause is a simple temperature modulation of the sink. The temperature dependency is not visible on the south pole.</p>
<p>graph:<br />
<a href="http://home.casema.nl/errenwijlens/co2/co2lt_en.gif" rel="nofollow">http://home.casema.nl/errenwijlens/co2/co2lt_en.gif</a></p>
<p>[<i>Response: The 3-rate model is a mathematical model for CO2 since 1997.  It involves no assumptions or models relating to the physical cause of CO2 changes; it's just an approximation to the numerical signal.</p>
<p>The correlation of CO2 growth rate with MSU (UAH) lower troposphere temperature is indeed very strong.  But much of the correlation is due to the fact that they both show such strong response to the el Nino of 1997-1998 and the Pinatubo explosion of 1992.  Also, they will necessarily show correlation simply due to the fact that they are both trending in the same direction (both are increasing).  If you remove the trend from each time series, and examine the data from 2000 to the present (after the el Nino and Mt. Pinatubo), then the very strong correlation becomes very weak; less than 10% of the variance of one series can be explained by the other.</p>
<p>And correlation is not causation; it seems to me far more likely that the (weak) correlation between lower troposphere temperature and CO2 growth rate since 2000 is not because lower troposphere temperature causes an increase in CO2 growth rate, but because they share a common root cause.</i>]</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Ac</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2365</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Ac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2365</guid>
		<description>Dear Andrew,

while it is true, that most of the increase in CO2 is due to anthro CO2 (but se http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL029019.shtml) or Tamino&#039;s blog &quot;CO2 surge&quot;,
don&#039;t forget, that the world is oversaturated with CO2 and even  if we stop emitting now, the world would still warm around 0.6 Celsius. So the future warming will be faster, than the previous, as the climate is far from equilibium under *current* CO2 levels...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Andrew,</p>
<p>while it is true, that most of the increase in CO2 is due to anthro CO2 (but se <a href="http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL029019.shtml)" rel="nofollow">http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL029019.shtml)</a> or Tamino&#8217;s blog &#8220;CO2 surge&#8221;,<br />
don&#8217;t forget, that the world is oversaturated with CO2 and even  if we stop emitting now, the world would still warm around 0.6 Celsius. So the future warming will be faster, than the previous, as the climate is far from equilibium under *current* CO2 levels&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Dodds</title>
		<link>http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2364</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/latest-trends-in-co2/#comment-2364</guid>
		<description>Fergus -

Not the best data but:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls

If you look, from 1980-84 (and IIRC as fas back as 1970) there is a slightly flat or even declining amount of fossil fuel burnt.  This is followed by a sharp rise up to 1988-1989, followed by a basically flat picture until 1994.  After that there is a general rise with breaks in 1997-98 and 2000-01; the very biggest increases are in 2002-03 and 03-04 (end of series) corresponding with huge rises in Chinese emissions.   

Total emissions have only gone up around 50% in the whole time frame, whith most of that increase being post-1994.  It would be interesting to graph this data against the above graphs..

I suspect that the good news here is that the recent increase in the rate of CO2 increase is man-made, and not a natural feedback.  The bad news is that China has just overttaken the US in total emissions and shows no sign of slowing down.

[&lt;i&gt;Response: Thanks for the data link.  I&#039;ve plotted the CO2 growth rate vs emissions in the UPDATE to this post.&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fergus -</p>
<p>Not the best data but:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls</a></p>
<p>If you look, from 1980-84 (and IIRC as fas back as 1970) there is a slightly flat or even declining amount of fossil fuel burnt.  This is followed by a sharp rise up to 1988-1989, followed by a basically flat picture until 1994.  After that there is a general rise with breaks in 1997-98 and 2000-01; the very biggest increases are in 2002-03 and 03-04 (end of series) corresponding with huge rises in Chinese emissions.   </p>
<p>Total emissions have only gone up around 50% in the whole time frame, whith most of that increase being post-1994.  It would be interesting to graph this data against the above graphs..</p>
<p>I suspect that the good news here is that the recent increase in the rate of CO2 increase is man-made, and not a natural feedback.  The bad news is that China has just overttaken the US in total emissions and shows no sign of slowing down.</p>
<p>[<i>Response: Thanks for the data link.  I've plotted the CO2 growth rate vs emissions in the UPDATE to this post.</i>]</p>
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